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Maybe this will get me to paint something or play 40k a little bit.

Which Phoenix Lords have you built an army around?

maugan ra, karandras, and asurmen are the only ones i personally like. maugan ra rends, 7 p.f. attacks base is the only reason i like karandas(mainy in apoc.) and asurmen because i use a lot of dire avengers, and a 2+\4+ is incredible.....


barroth is nothing like he used to be, jain zar is just a banshee on crack and i have never really tried using fuegen, being in a squad of guys that have a 4+ save is not too great unless you are running masses(D.A.).

There was a long thread on this a while back, it covered all the basics.

The best is Jain Zar, she may be a Banshee in crack to some, but she is a S7 Banshee with 5 attacks. Her shooting is damn good too, hit on 2+ kill on 2+/3+ no saves. Total eight high powered attacks on the charge turn.

I agree, although Fuegan should not be tied to a unit of FD's. He can walk through a good deal of fire with FNP and do fine for himself.

Apoc Makes them worthwhile IMO. I would build an Army around any of the top 5. I don't like Barroth or SH's in general, so they don't really make my cut, but Hit and Run on a Big unit with all his abilities would make them a fantastic harrasing unit, just I don't see much damage potential. Karandras is amazing with a unit of Scorpions. Asurmen is good and can lead a horde of DA's, exarch with Shimmershield and that is a Tarpit and a half. MR is odd, in that he has no real abilities to help his unit, but he can hang out near some Reapers to lend support and help if CC erupts. Shooting on the move is a neat ability however. I thought about putting him with a small unit of Reapers w/ Exarch in a Falcon to be different however.

Fuegan is a loner IMO, and by himself can wreak much havoc. I would think mobility is key with him, get him in a transport and deposit and let him detach and go off on his own.

Too bad Jain Zar doesn't give banshees Furious Charge, but she gives them a decent punch.

I would rank them as:

Karandras(with a pack of Scorpions)
Jain Zar(In a squad of Banshees)
Asurmen(Invuln Save bumps him up)
Fuegan(FNP, loner)
Maugan Ra(loner)

Barroth

all I was going to say is that Jain Zar is good too. One of the best (and most fun) pure close combat HQs in 40k even if Eldar don't really benefit tactically from taking her.

Maugan and Jain Zar make their appropriate squads fearless, which is a great benefit to them. Karandras and Asurmen too, for that matter.

And yeah Baharroth is crap unless of course you REALLY like Swooping Hawks. 200 points? Come on. He's just a Space Marine with a jump pack. They could have given him a decent gun at least. Say S6 AP1 Assault 3 or maybe Assault D6 just to be fun. No need to duplicate the Maugetar.

He still has Wings + Fleet + Hit and Run + Fearless Hawk squad.

Thanks for the advice.

I found the Following link

Is that what you were talking about?

That is the one.

Some of the Phoenix Lords have pretty neat skills, but I think the only one really worth taking in the metagame is Jain Zar. I really dont know why she is the least expensive of them, if they were all the same price I would still choose her. Pity her miniature sucks.

I tried Maugan Ra in a couple of games today. He really fit well with my Guardian foot slogging style army. By some lucky rolls, he killed an entire Bezerker squad in assault and destroyed a Land Raider by shooting in my second game. He meshed well with very good shooting and was a pretty decent counter assault element (as most opponents can't wait to assault my Guardians).

I'm not sure if he's a good substitute for the Avatar, but I will definitely be getting a few more games in with him.

Jain Zar works well with 5 harlies in a Falcon.

Mnemoch wrote:Jain Zar works well with 5 harlies in a Falcon.

Hmm, they cannot join with other Aspect squads that are not their own, but I guess its fine to join non-aspects?. Although they all would have Furious Charge. That is a good idea actually, a tad expensive. Jain-Zar would not have hit and run though.

They are all horrendously overcosted for a model without an Invulnerable save. The only ones I would consider very non-competitive are Asurmen and Baharoth. At least the rest of the gang have high strength attacks. I would rate them in usefullness in the following order:

Maugan Rau - lots of shots with rending hitting on 2's
Karandas - Infiltrates with 8 attacks on charge
Jain Zar - tons of high strength attacks
Feugan - Strength is getting lower but FNP is cool on 2+ save
Asurmen - finally an invulnerable!... and not alot else
Baharroth - weeps

I think Harlequins are way better than a character. Eldar don't seem to need a really killy character, at least not without an Invulnerable save. At first I didn't like the new codex because I thought they could have done so much more with it and they downgraded some things I love like Scorpions. These days though I realize nothing is the new codex is truely bad. Except for Baharroth.

Anyone remember Jain Zar in 2nd edition. I have many fond memories of her taking out an entire army with one attack of her Silent Death. Too bad they cost and arm and a leg for downgraded killyness

WC_Brian wrote:
At first I didn't like the new codex because I thought they could have done so much more with it and they downgraded some things I love like Scorpions. These days though I realize nothing is the new codex is truely bad. Except for Baharroth.

That's my thinking exactly. Those 3rd ed Scorpions were my MVP time and time again. You can still take a Farseer with them but it's just not the same.

Warlock bodyguard comes close, tho and it even fleets while it does it .

WC_Brian wrote:
They are all horrendously overcosted for a model without an Invulnerable save.

You cant have everything. I would far rather see Immunity to Instant Death than Invulnerable. Sure you dont get a 4+ against the powerfist, but it still has to hit and wound each time. Autarch - one fail - squish. Besides those Phoenix Lords remotely worth taking will clear out their base contact. Dead enemies don't get to bypass your armour saves.

WC_Brian wrote:
Maugan Rau - lots of shots with rending hitting on 2's
Karandas - Infiltrates with 8 attacks on charge
Jain Zar - tons of high strength attacks
Feugan - Strength is getting lower but FNP is cool on 2+ save
Asurmen - finally an invulnerable!... and not alot else
Baharroth - weeps

Maugan Ra - Horde killer, no - more like horde worrier. Maugetar is reasonably good in close combat but the shooting is not worth the price. If you want a shooty leader he has be be able to kill his points value straight out. Rending is comparatively good for poor Bs shooting, however with a Bs5 gun you need a weapon that is going to kill more than GEq on a 2-5. The Maugetar doesnt deliver. Take an Autarch with Reaper launcher instead. Hang at the back with real 2+ hitting firepower and lead your troops better too.
Nice job getting Altansar out of the EoT, now can you go home and requip that scythe on a Reaper launcher instead. A third tier choice and not quite good enough to make it to the tabletop.

Karandras - I8 I1 attacks on the charge. In his case the lack of an invulnerable save is critical. Too many things will take him down first, including any decent IC, even a semi-tooled Guard command squad is a risky opponent. Third tier with Maugan Ra.

Jain Zar. Bs5 s5 triskele shots that slaughter MEq followed by S7 attacks on the charge, if you are lucky what is left is Ws1. Counter charge also. No real weakness, other than short range, and that is normal for an IC. Send her in on her own or with Banshees. Ask your girls to clean their swords afterwards, it is going to get messy. Alone on the top tier.

Feugan. - Not bad, decent shooting with a weapon that counts. All tanks who enter here die, any targetable IC too, exploit the zone of fear vehicles dare not enter. Fire Axe also works, s5 power weapon is good enough so can hold is own against MEq, and he gets two saves. I would put him second to Jain Zar, and the only other Phoenix Lord worth taking in my book.

Asurmen & Baharroth - No thanks. They would be good if they cost 100pts each.

If you want a shooty leader he has be be able to kill his points value straight out.

Why? A unit that doesn't die doesn't need to get its points back, and if he does die, he's probably seen some good CC action, no?

Plus, he can get his points back. Just pop a tank or two. Against anything but a Monolith, the Maugetar is more effective in his hands than a lascannon.

Rending is comparatively good for poor Bs shooting, however with a Bs5 gun you need a weapon that is going to kill more than GEq on a 2-5.

He'll average 1.76 MEq kills a turn. An Autarch with reaper launcher only averages 1.11.

He can also put 1.38 wounds on a dakkafex out of cover. That's as good as 2.5 BS4 lascannons/BLs--or 2.5 reaper launcher Autarchs.

Having tried and used all of the PL from when they were introduced up till this edition...

Maugan Ra is my personal favorite. There's almost nothing he can't handle.

Fuegan is his followup, but only if he hits with his shooting.

Jain Zar and Karandras have alot of attacks, but are only a bit better than Maugen Ra in close combaat and don't have anything close to his kind of shooting.

Asurmen is ok for annoying your opponent, but that's about all he does.

Baharroth is just not much use these days.

At any rate, in a tournament setting Maugan Ra matches up well with any Eldar army type. The others aren't as flexible, and frankly I don't worry about close combat beasts...none of the Eldar lords can assault beyond 18", so you can manage what they are going to do to you.
Maugan Ra can sit and pummel you from a distance, and he hurts.

Stelek wrote:
Fuegan is his followup, but only if he hits with his shooting.

That's what it was, Fuegan used to have Fast Shot as his extra Exarch power, now he gets FNP. Bit better/more fun in CC but the two shots is _much_ better than just one when you're trying to take out a vehicle.

jesterzdragon wrote:Hmm, they cannot join with other Aspect squads that are not their own, but I guess its fine to join non-aspects?. Although they all would have Furious Charge. That is a good idea actually, a tad expensive. Jain-Zar would not have hit and run though.

WC_Brian wrote:I think Harlequins are way better than a character. Eldar don't seem to need a really killy character, at least not without an Invulnerable save.

You're both missing the true power of the IC w/harlies. They can attack two seperate squads. Jain doesn't really need a squad, and 5 harlies can do a job almost as well as 6. However, if you're looking for a character to try this trick with, Yriel is probably the best one.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Why? A unit that doesn't die doesn't need to get its points back, and if he does die, he's probably seen some good CC action, no?

Getting points back in shooting is important because shooting is a stand off attrition battle. how good you are in close combat is often just irrelevant. Does Maugan Ra offer good value in points spent per firepower earned. Nice gun, yes, but 195pts of nice gun, not really.

In melee combat the extra factors matter far more. Stopping an assault unit reaching your lines is not a matter of points per kill, but naked reliability. Can you hold or notm if you cant the whole battle may be lost and the efficiency % matter little.

Rending is comparatively good for poor Bs shooting, however with a Bs5 gun you need a weapon that is going to kill more than GEq on a 2-5.

He'll average 1.76 MEq kills a turn. An Autarch with reaper launcher only averages 1.11.

1.76Meq a turn for 195pts vs 1.11 MEq for 105pts (Autarch power weapon and Reaper launcher). Sorry got to go with the Autarch there. its a 0.009 vs 0.01 coefficient, pretty close but a 10% efficiency edge to the Autarch.

Now the Autarch isnt as hard in close combat, but both are reasonably hard enough to protect themselves and both can be your army leader. However the Autarch has all those extra nice leadership abilities. For a stand at the back and shoot while leading leader I would take a Reaper Autarch over Maugan Ra every time.

Tacobake wrote:

Stelek wrote:
Fuegan is his followup, but only if he hits with his shooting.

That's what it was, Fuegan used to have Fast Shot as his extra Exarch power, now he gets FNP. Bit better/more fun in CC but the two shots is _much_ better than just one when you're trying to take out a vehicle.

Stelek, I am reasonably confident that Feugan will hit with his shooting the majority of the time. I see what you are getting at, it sucks when he rolls that one, but not manty people will want o take the chance with thier better tanks. His firepower is about 18" radius area denial, he also has crack shot, so for lone units you cant hide from his multimelta. Yes Maugan Ra has that too, but his gun is not anything like as scary to a Tau commander or equivalent.

Feugan still has some real tank killing capability, in shooting and in melee combat, and is more useful as a standing leader because he is a nasty counterassult unit. You got some powerful assault units heading close to your lines while all the Phoenix Lords could make a large dent in them, except Baharroth, Feugan can be more of less guaranteed to still be standing at the end, even against genestealers. Others are more killy, but he will stop an assault cold because of FNP. I dont think Maugan Ra will do that. Jain Zar neither, but she is there to take the fight to the enemy instead, Feugan is a mid board character.

I think the tradeoff is worthwhile, he is less of a super Fire Dragon, but more of an IC.

Orlanth wrote:

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Why? A unit that doesn't die doesn't need to get its points back, and if he does die, he's probably seen some good CC action, no?

Getting points back in shooting is important because shooting is a stand off attrition battle. how good you are in close combat is often just irrelevant. Does Maugan Ra offer good value in points spent per firepower earned. Nice gun, yes, but 195pts of nice gun, not really.

I'm confused.

Is there a better way to spend your points when all you want is a shooty HQ that can kick the tires in CC?

Autarch with a Reaper Launcher? Sucks in CC.
Farseer? Can't shoot worth beans.
Other Phoenix Lords? Only Fuegan has shooting, but it's 1 shot...not 4/5.
Avatar, Yriel, Eldrad...all have junk for shooting.

For balance between shooting (BS7 Assault Cannon with 5 shots and 50% more range, you sure have alot to gripe about) and close combat (Five WS7 I7 S6 attacks on the charge, man he just sucks!) nothing comes close to Maugan Ra.

I don't know why you think Fuegan is more survivable in close combat, he isn't really. Sure he can hold units for a long time that don't have power weapons, but that's about it.

Maugan Ra and Fuegan (and all the other Phoenix Lords) die to power hits. Only Asurmen can hold his own, but he can't shoot very well.

At any rate, here's the crux:

Maugan Ra is IMHO a better shooting HQ than anything else you can pick.
He's good enough in close combat that people stay away from him, and he wrecks squads that come close.

No other HQ offers a 42" shooting exclusion zone and a possible 18" assault exclusion zone.

If you have a HQ that does better, in any army, can you post it please?

I feel Maugan ra is the best choice to take for an all around, take all comers list. Of course you will have to make the list fit him a little. He is much more valuable in a foot army than a mechanized army.

I use him as ac ounter assault unit to my fire base of pathfinders. It's hard enough to get pathfinders out of cover shooting at them so Maugan hangs around to prevent assault units from getting to them. Jain Zar could do the same thing, however when no assault unit is coming at me, Maugan can hang back with the Pathfinders and shoot effectively at 36 inches.

An Autarch with reaper launcher might statistically kill more meq's, but it has no chance against armor 12 or better. In this instance Maugan is infinitely superior to the autarch in shooting at armor and if I have a firebase of pathfinders, why would I need more meq firepower, I would need anti-armor firepower.

Maugan Ra can 'make his points back' better by shooting at armor rather than troops and how many points is he worth when he keeps a marine assault squad or chaos bike squad from zooming up and assaulting my pathfinder firebase? Once again almost any of the PL's can keep marines away, but only Maugan gives me the flexibility to do some effective shooting if no one assaults.

I guess the short answer is he is the most versatile and that's why I use him. I use Maugan Ra in my list. I figure anytime my opponent doesn't see Eldrad across the table they must be happy.

Orlanth:

Getting points back in shooting is important because shooting is a stand off attrition battle. how good you are in close combat is often just irrelevant. Does Maugan Ra offer good value in points spent per firepower earned. Nice gun, yes, but 195pts of nice gun, not really.

Oh rubbish. Even IG have counter-charge units. Maugan Ra may not be 195 pts worht of ncie gun, but he sure a shell is 95 pts. of nice gun and 100 pts. of CC ownage. He serves double-duty, and is good in both roles.

Do your Falcons get their points back, by the way? I highly doubt it. Yet you (I'm assuming) use them, and why? Because they offer other sorts of utility.

In melee combat the extra factors matter far more. Stopping an assault unit reaching your lines is not a matter of points per kill, but naked reliability. Can you hold or notm if you cant the whole battle may be lost and the efficiency % matter little.

Yet you're the one who started talking efficiency. . . . An assault unit, you say? Do you think perhaps a boatload of S6 PW attacks might help against this assault unit?

1.76Meq a turn for 195pts vs 1.11 MEq for 105pts (Autarch power weapon and Reaper launcher). Sorry got to go with the Autarch there. its a 0.009 vs 0.01 coefficient, pretty close but a 10% efficiency edge to the Autarch.

Hilarious conclusion. 10% efficiency in exchange for ridiculously better CC capability? I'd make that swap any day.

Now the Autarch isnt as hard in close combat, but both are reasonably hard enough to protect themselves and both can be your army leader.

The Autarch can't protect himself against jack. A squad of charging Guardsmen would get the better of him. Maugan Ra, on the other hand, hits with the power of a Flyrant.

-

By the way, don't you have a response to my point on Maugan Ra's effectiveness against vehicles or MCs? It seems to demand one.

tegeus-Cromis wrote: The Autarch can't protect himself against jack. A squad of charging Guardsmen would get the better of him.

UNNY!

We will have to disagree on Maugan Ra, I still think he is too expensive for what he does. Close combat he is good, but not compared to some other Phoenix Lords. Shooting, hmm he does things that other units can do for less and doesnt scratch where Eldar itch which is heavy tanks at range. Rending is nice but too random for the investment. 195pts and hoping to get lucky 6's - not good.

However I really dont see where you get the idea that:

1. A farseer cannot shoot worth beans! S9 2+ to hit is pretty good, and its cheap too. Range isnt good, but that is what bikes are for.

2. Other Phoenix Lords cannot shoot! What about the Silent death: Jain Zar's 3x S5 ap2 shots. Short ranged yes, but she will be wanting to close with the enemy anyway.

3. An Autarch cant protect himself against Jack! Invulnerable save high Ws and I and a S3 power weapon. Not exactly feeble, and this is on a minimum stand at the back Reaper Autarch whoes main job is the leadership bonus, reserve rolls etc, and shooting the Reaper launcher. If you want him truely killy you take the Shining Spear version.

4. "Hilarious conclusion. 10% efficiency in exchange for ridiculously better CC capability? I'd make that swap any day." First remember he is nearly half the price, and Maugan Ra doesnt get Master Strategist. When you want utility - this is utility: Reasonable CC, good shooting, best leader for your army and CHEAP. I am 100% ready to take Reaper autarch over Maugan Ra.

If you want some S6 firepower take some Warwalkers, roll an obscene number of dice more and pay half the cost. Eldar are not short of S6 guns. And that by the way is where you get your anti-monster firepower.

The Maugetar's shooting is great for killing GEq, alongside a lot else in the army. The real bonus is the S6 scythe. As you have said a lot, I agree. he doesnt suck buy any stretch, but he isnt 195pts worth of awesome. So why not take your S6 power weapon and someone who can make better use of it. Jain Zar. Get in close Furious charge and slice up some MEq on the way in with no armour saves allowed, and save 5 point in the process. Jain Zar has a definate roll and is worth investing 190pts in it, there isnt anything else that can take it to the enemy the way she can. Maugan Ra shares his role with other things that can serve you better or just as/almost as good in as many roles, and for far less.

And for the record I don't play unfun and unfair holofalcon lists. I see your point on the value of 'utility', I agree that many things dont translate into a points value. I hope you see mine.

Close combat he is good, but not compared to some other Phoenix Lords.

Against MEqs and TEqs who aren't in cover (or charging into cover with frags), he is identical in performance to Jain Zar.

Shooting, hmm he does things that other units can do for less and doesnt scratch where Eldar itch which is heavy tanks at range. Rending is nice but too random for the investment. 195pts and hoping to get lucky 6's - not good.

You're letting "common sense" cloud your judgement. Do the math. The Maugetar is better than a lascannon, even against AV14 (unless it's a 'lith, of course).

1. A farseer cannot shoot worth beans! S9 2+ to hit is pretty good, and its cheap too. Range isnt good, but that is what bikes are for.

I don't think I mentioned a Farseer anyway.

2. Other Phoenix Lords cannot shoot! What about the Silent death: Jain Zar's 3x S5 ap2 shots. Short ranged yes, but she will be wanting to close with the enemy anyway.

Apples and oranges.

3. An Autarch cant protect himself against Jack! Invulnerable save high Ws and I and a S3 power weapon. Not exactly feeble

Extremely feeble. The Guardsmen example was a bit of an exaggeration, but not by much. The inv. save hardly matters when non-PW attacks will take you down just fine. And high I, great! You strike first and kill. . . one marine? Impressive.

and this is on a minimum stand at the back Reaper Autarch whoes main job is the leadership bonus, reserve rolls etc, and shooting the Reaper launcher

What Leadership bonus? He isn't a Marine commander. Are you actually suggesting he join a squad that will be taking fire?

Reserve rolls--okay, point taken.

Shooting the reaper launcher--I've already listed why the Maugetar is far superior to the reaper.

First remember he is nearly half the price, and Maugan Ra doesnt get Master Strategist.

Ra is still much better in CC, point for point.

Again, I take your point on Master Strategist.

When you want utility - this is utility: Reasonable CC, good shooting, best leader for your army and CHEAP. I am 100% ready to take to take Reaper autarch over Maugan Ra.

There is more than one kind of utility. Excellent CC, excellent shooting, decent survivability--this, too, is useful.

If you want some S6 firepower take some Warwalkers, roll an obscene number of dice more and pay half the cost. Eldar are not short of S6 guns.

Once again you ignore my point about the Maugetar's AT capability. Scatterlasers are great against medium tanks, but can't touch a Land Raider or a Russ. Eldar are not short of S6 guns, but they are short of good, long-ranged AT.

The real bonus is the S6 scythe. As you have said a lot, I agree. he doesnt suck buy any stretch, but he isnt 195pts worth of awesome. So why not take your S6 power weapon and someone who can make better use of it.

Again, you're comparing things which simply aren't analogous to each other. Sometimes you need to take it to the enemy; other times you need a counter-charge unit. In a counter-charge role, Jain Zar would be wasted.

Maugan Ra shares his role with other things that can serve you better or just as/almost as good in as many roles, and for far less.

A unit that can harm anything in the game that isn't a Monlith at range, and still toe-to-toe a DP in CC? Nope, not seeing it.

The autarch can pick his battles. Maugan and Jain and all of them can't. That's what makes the cheaper Autarch a better solution - that and +1 reserve rolls.

Autarchs don't have to care about a squad of IG charging them, because they can MOVE, and will pick the most opportune moment to assault.

They also get the move shoot duck movement if playing VP denial.

You're talking about the jet-tarch, but the main comparison Orlanth has been using is with the Autarch on foot.

I am a fan of jet-tarchs, but I don't think they fit well in the counter-charge role. They suffer from RR syndrome, i.e. protracted combat spells disaster for them. That doesn't stop RRs from being kickass counter-charge, but an RR unit is cheap and can afford to die to a man after they've done their job. The jet-tarch can't. Without Hit & Run to pull him out, one round of bad rolling means he's doomed.

To be fair you can give a Spear autarch a reaper launcher. He starts to get too expensive though.

I use the Reaper Autarch simply becaue he is effective and cheap. He is mainly there to be acheap command with Master Strategist with a decent gun so that he is not wasted kicking his heels in the back ranks. Power weapon is pretty much mandatory for his statuis, but thats it. Spear autarchs need to be tooled up but can be very nasty in close combat, but you must be careful with them.

Both have their place.

Tegeus I am partly convinced enough to take another look at Maugen Ra, the lascannon substitute role at least does make sense. Still think he is a bit pricy though and I still strongly feel a Reaper Autarch is a better buy.