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Nurglitch wrote:My Blood Angels have:

[SNIP!]

As a Chaos Marine army they have:

[SNIP!]

I like the look of both of these lists - both are very fair and well-balanced.

But where is your Death Company (MoK Raptors)?!?

[quote=JohnHwangDD

JohnHwangDD: I don't use 'em.

DarthDiggler wrote:I don't agree with you and you call me a whiner. Real class.

I don't play Blood Angels, but let's not let facts get in the way of your pontifications.

Ahem. You characterized my posts as "fringe positions". That's no less of a personal insult or attack than if I were to properly characterize your posts as "the sort of mindless verbal diarrhea that one might expect of a mentally-challenged simpleton who knows nothing of the game." After all, it's not a direct attack, so it must be OK. Anyhow, let me make things very simple for you:
- If you want to continue posting aggressively, I can (and will) do that in response.
- If you want to argue or discuss intelligently to demonstrate that you actually are capable of putting two thoughts together, please feel free to start doing so at any time and I will be delighted to respond in kind.

Given your admission that you don't even play Blood Angels, coupled with your lack of informed responses, no wonder it's difficult for anyone to take you seriously in this thread.

Nurglitch wrote:JohnHwangDD: I don't use 'em.

But you paid for the DC models as part of the Tactical and other units.

You can't treat them as something interesting?

Sure, but I'm not interested in using them as anything. Both lists weigh in at 1850pts, and the Black Rage makes them more of a nuisance than anything. Since I don't have to take them I don't.

I would just like to point out that the jump pack on DC is +5 pts and not +10pts, which make DC even more of a steal, even at a base cost of 30pts.

And has been said over and over again, I don't feel Blood Angels are quite top tier like Godzilla nids or mech Eldar, but I think they're decently competitive while not being the cheese-fest they used to be in 3rd ed (whew!)

Zoned

Lists aren't competitive. Players are competitive.

I just think it's sad that some of the poster children (with almost 20 years of history and fandom) of the game didn't even get a codex release. For the record, a white dwarf army spread accross 2 issues does not a codex make.

Of course they don't exist anymore! You can't even buy their codex of the shelf!? How smart is that?

EDIT: PSST, lists are competative

I think this list is competitive. /shrug

2000 points of Blood Angels.

1 Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost @ 125 Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol; Crozius Arcanum; Death Mask; Rosarius
1 Death Mask @ [0] Pts
1 Jump Pack @ [0] Pts
1 Rosarius @ [0] Pts

9 Death Company @ 45 Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol; Chainsword (x9); Furious Charge; Jump Packs

5 Honor Guard @ 205 Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x5); Meltagun (x2)
1 Blood Angels Rhino @ [60] Pts
Storm Bolter; Extra Armor; Over-charged Engines; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

5 Veteran Assault Squad @ 190 Pts
Remove Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x5); Bolter (x3); Meltagun (x2)
1 Blood Angels Rhino @ [20] Pts
Storm Bolter; Extra Armor; Over-charged Engines; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

5 Veteran Assault Squad @ 190 Pts
Remove Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x5); Bolter (x3); Meltagun (x2)
1 Blood Angels Rhino @ [20] Pts
Storm Bolter; Extra Armor; Over-charged Engines; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

5 Veteran Assault Squad @ 190 Pts
Remove Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x5); Bolter (x3); Meltagun (x2)
1 Blood Angels Rhino @ [20] Pts
Storm Bolter; Extra Armor; Over-charged Engines; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

4 Assault Squad @ 145 Pts
Remove Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x4); Chainsword (x4)
1 Blood Angels Rhino @ [45] Pts
Storm Bolter; Over-charged Engines; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers
1 Sergeant @ [28] Pts
Remove Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x1); Chainsword (x1)

4 Assault Squad @ 145 Pts
Remove Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x4); Chainsword (x4)
1 Blood Angels Rhino @ [45] Pts
Storm Bolter; Over-charged Engines; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers
1 Sergeant @ [28] Pts
Remove Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x1); Chainsword (x1)

4 Assault Squad @ 145 Pts
Remove Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x4); Chainsword (x4)
1 Blood Angels Rhino @ [45] Pts
Storm Bolter; Over-charged Engines; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers
1 Sergeant @ [28] Pts
Remove Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x1); Chainsword (x1)

4 Assault Squad @ 145 Pts
Remove Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x4); Chainsword (x4)
1 Blood Angels Rhino @ [45] Pts
Storm Bolter; Over-charged Engines; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers
1 Sergeant @ [28] Pts
Remove Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x1); Chainsword (x1)

4 Assault Squad @ 145 Pts
Remove Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x4); Chainsword (x4)
1 Blood Angels Rhino @ [45] Pts
Storm Bolter; Over-charged Engines; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers
1 Sergeant @ [28] Pts
Remove Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x1); Chainsword (x1)

1 Baal Predator @ 110 Pts
Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Over-charged Engines; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

1 Baal Predator @ 110 Pts
Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Over-charged Engines; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

1 Baal Predator @ 110 Pts
Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Over-charged Engines; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

Total Roster Cost: 2000

@ JohnhwangDD- I actually liked your list.

@ Stelek-Very nice list too.

FWIW- BA are still a great army to play. I have a mate that swears by them(I think he is having a love affair with Mephiston!! lol). Every game, however,they get flogged by my Vanilla Marines. Maybe I am a powergamer(no-one has ever said so, but still.........maybe) but thay seem to lack in the long range Dept.

The ONLY two lists I have seen posted so far seem to take this into account. 10 DC with Jump-packs, led by either Mephiston or a Chaplin......

Re-rolling misses?(on the charge) That can still rend............shudder....
And with the FNP, essentially better saves than termies. (4+ Inv, apart from insta-kill)

H.B.M.C. wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:...and the rest of the army follows the Codex Astartes (as their 2E Fluff stated very clearly).

They sure do, what with all those Assault Squads as troops... wait...

Unless the current Blood Angel list represents the 8th Company, they're not following the fluff.

BYE

A. What's wrong with the 8th company? I can play 10th company with my Ultramarines list. Is that a problem?

B. What's wrong with using, say, PART of the 2nd company? As long as I don't field more than two assault squads, everything's perfectly fluffy, right? Hell, I can already field more than two assault squads in my Ultramarines army under the current rules.

Here's a question, off-thread but on-topic (I guess, a mod'll hit me if I'm wrong).

What do you think possesed GW to put a codex, complete and in it's entirety, on their website for free download? Short of stuff like Armoured Company and maybe a couple others, thy don't give up anything for free. I think the only reason they ever put the AC up on their site was b/c it is not tourney legal (or used to not be, or WTF ever). No offense to all those out there having a long-distance love affair with Jervis (who actually seems like a decent fella, got to talk to him a few years back @ Baltimore), but I don't buy that Standard Bearer as representing GW's reasons, at least not ALL of them. Whenever I see a company making seemingly stupid calls, I have learned that following the money trail usu. leads to an answer. The more moronic the decision, usu. the shorter term financial goal addressed. Anyone have some opinions as to what went on?

Hey Nurglitch, no offense, but it takes a good player with a good list to be competitve. A better player can be competitive with a lesser list, but not against a similarly skilled player with a good list unless the mission skews things (which you cannot count on). Unless you are going to pull the "semantics" card.

Not really looked at blood angels, but after seeing some of the DA iron halo rules.. who would. one of the reasons I like the look of Da of BA is the cool codex and fluff.

They get special characters and some nice tweaks on the basic ruleset. You can't duplicate them with doctrines, other than a proliferation of assault squads.

They lost furious charge for free, they gained an improvement to the death company, Terminators are viable, which rocks and their Special Characters are rock hard, as they should be.

Only thing that sucks is a general lack of veteran skills, and a conspicious lack of furious charge on their veteran assault squads and assault terminators.

On the other hand you _do_ get the Death Company, it's probably a game balance issue.

grizgrin wrote:Here's a question, off-thread but on-topic (I guess, a mod'll hit me if I'm wrong).

What do you think possesed GW to put a codex, complete and in it's entirety, on their website for free download? Short of stuff like Armoured Company and maybe a couple others, thy don't give up anything for free. I think the only reason they ever put the AC up on their site was b/c it is not tourney legal (or used to not be, or WTF ever). No offense to all those out there having a long-distance love affair with Jervis (who actually seems like a decent fella, got to talk to him a few years back @ Baltimore), but I don't buy that Standard Bearer as representing GW's reasons, at least not ALL of them. Whenever I see a company making seemingly stupid calls, I have learned that following the money trail usu. leads to an answer. The more moronic the decision, usu. the shorter term financial goal addressed. Anyone have some opinions as to what went on?

Hey Nurglitch, no offense, but it takes a good player with a good list to be competitve. A better player can be competitive with a lesser list, but not against a similarly skilled player with a good list unless the mission skews things (which you cannot count on). Unless you are going to pull the "semantics" card.

They don't really need new models (altho an upgrade sprue would have been nice), their existing rules were much maligned (while creative) and it can't be that hard to whip up a Space Marine ruleset. On top of it, it gives them a chance to experiment with the "Jervis' kid" codex format.

Bascically in this one specific case I think GW was happy with a PDF download release and felt it was appropriate. Otherwise it would have been years if at all before there was a rules and minis update and something like Inquisition or Dark Eldar might be dropped alongside say LatD.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:I don't agree with you and you call me a whiner. Real class.

I don't play Blood Angels, but let's not let facts get in the way of your pontifications.

Ahem. You characterized my posts as "fringe positions". That's no less of a personal insult or attack than if I were to properly characterize your posts as "the sort of mindless verbal diarrhea that one might expect of a mentally-challenged simpleton who knows nothing of the game." After all, it's not a direct attack, so it must be OK. Anyhow, let me make things very simple for you:
- If you want to continue posting aggressively, I can (and will) do that in response.
- If you want to argue or discuss intelligently to demonstrate that you actually are capable of putting two thoughts together, please feel free to start doing so at any time and I will be delighted to respond in kind.

Given your admission that you don't even play Blood Angels, coupled with your lack of informed responses, no wonder it's difficult for anyone to take you seriously in this thread.

JohnHwangDD, characterizing someone’s viewpoint as a “fringe position” is an opinion that can (and probably should) be challenged, but it’s not a personal attack. Much less in any way equivalent to saying you can “properly characterize (someone’s) posts as "the sort of mindless verbal diarrhea that one might expect of a mentally-challenged simpleton who knows nothing of the game."

This is a warning for flaming. On your next offense you will earn a temporary ban.

DarthDiggler, your responses were also inappropriate. You can muster better arguments than the Ad Hominum ones you resort to when you bring up someone’s post count, or say that they’re only arguing to “feel like a big man”.

To both of you (and everyone else reading), please remember that if someone attacks you, your first reaction should be to hit the Alert Mod button and/or shoot one of us a PM. Your second reaction should be to back off and pause before posting a response. Give it a little time and judge whether the person is actually attacking you or just your argument. While it’s okay to point out that to someone that their post contains a personal attack, it’s always better to take the high road with your response. You build credibility and avoid escalating arguments.

Mannahnin wrote:
JohnHwangDD, characterizing someone’s viewpoint as a “fringe position” is an opinion that can (and probably should) be challenged, but it’s not a personal attack.

This is a warning for flaming. On your next offense you will earn a temporary ban.

@Mannahnin

I considered "fringe" as "lunatic fringe", and reacted badly to that.

You are being very fair, and your comments and warning are both understood and accepted.


/John

grizgrin wrote:What do you think possesed GW to put a codex, complete and in it's entirety, on their website for free download? Short of stuff like Armoured Company and maybe a couple others, thy don't give up anything for free. I think the only reason they ever put the AC up on their site was b/c it is not tourney legal (or used to not be, or WTF ever). No offense to all those out there having a long-distance love affair with Jervis (who actually seems like a decent fella, got to talk to him a few years back @ Baltimore), but I don't buy that Standard Bearer as representing GW's reasons, at least not ALL of them. Whenever I see a company making seemingly stupid calls, I have learned that following the money trail usu. leads to an answer. The more moronic the decision, usu. the shorter term financial goal addressed. Anyone have some opinions as to what went on?

If I remember my discussions correctly, they changed printers during this time period and couldn't get the Codex out if they'd wanted to.

grizgrin: None taken. Considering that the game involves, and indeed requires, players to use armies in missions the truth is that players are what is competitive. The whole competitive/tier list thing is simply Internet babble, an artifact of Internet forum users to abstract all those parts of the game that cannot be casually mentioned in forums (i.e. everything but lists...).

Also they stated something about not having the models or resources to do the models back to back with the Dark Angels, but wanted to put out both of the Angels lists like they did the old book. The BA list is still a "in testing" list, with a full codex to come some time in the future.

I really like the list, it makes you get creative with your choices. My DA really don't like Honour guard and Vetran Assault squads!

I suppose the list being in white dwarf is ok, something is better than nothing, but what if you wanted to buy the list as a new player. AS to the structure, I concur with earlier comments that is was written with an even hand, and is probably at the right level of balance, to bad the creative direction of publication hasn't followed suit with other codexes...

Why don't they publish the annual anymore? this codex would be a perfect example of something to include in the 2007 annual? Sometimes I miss the old days, I liked the annuals with the collection of everything they had put into white dwarf like this. Wouldn't a new one be great!

Augustus,

The list is available online. And if a store is smart, they
probably have printouts of the list at the shop to handout
so that people will buy the figs.

The reason GW stopped publishing Annuals is because, with a 5-year cycle, you have players needing to carry the rulebook and 4 to 6 Annuals just to play the game. That's something of a problem when the objective is to keep paper down to 1 Rulebook & 1 Codex.

That's too bad, though. Gamers were getting exercise.

ROFL! I can see it now:

Our patented weight loss codex! (500 pages ~25lbs.)

OT I would assume if an annual were to be published that each annual would outdate the previous one entirely, and included some synonymous entries for things that were staying, perhaps like alternative army lists like the kroot mercs, Armored Co. Blood Angels and IG mutant doctrines... But yes having them (Annuals) exactly like before, well, maybe not.

(Sad that Armored Co. and BLOOD ANGELS ride in the same boat... forgotten)

PS while online codex distribution might seem nice as its free to the player base, and better than nothing it doesn't help my friendly neighborhood store owner have something to sell me and stay in business.

JohnHwangDD wrote:FWIW, my BA concept army is like this:

Jump Captain w/ twinLCs
Jump Chaplain

Use the fugly special character chaplian he's better in all ways, and cheaper.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
7 DC w/ JPs
2x 5 Assault Vets w/ Flamers, PW

I'm not sure why you want your vets to die horribly, but whatever. At least use meltas for tank hunting.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
2x 5 Assault w/ Pistols, PF.

Now that's sportsmanship. Two min strength troops squads.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
3x 10 Devastator w/ 3 HB / 3 ML / 3 PC & 1 Lascannon.

Sportsmanship hit incoming (I'd suggest missiles I suppose and 1 LC is worthless generally)

JohnHwangDD wrote:This is almost 60 models.

Under the current Traits SM, it is better and meaner with more guys, 6-man squads, extra Las/Plas, etc. But as Traits will go away, this is what's left.

Unless sanity is recovered before then.

Pleas post an alternate list that satisfies all of your concerns reagrding S'manship etc. please Efarrer.

I'm just over joyed to see that the blood angels are finaly paying for furious charge and for their death company. And it would appear that they are paying a fair price for both. All in all I'm rather happy with the list.

akira5665 wrote:Pleas post an alternate list that satisfies all of your concerns reagrding S'manship etc. please Efarrer.

I gave up.

I can't see a good army that will satisfy sportsmanship/comp restrictions.

I don't like the army and have my BA in the closet floor at the moment.