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Is it just me or did those guys disappeared somewhat?
The inevitable first cry of cheese vanished and then came...well...nothing really?
Are they viable? Competitive? Or is their mini-codex just bad? I don't see them discussed that much neither in good nor bad ways (like the DA for example).

Insight welcomed!

Greets
Schepp himself

I like them still and they are viable because of some of thier unit choices. Top tier I am not so sure right now until they can place in the top 5 in GT's this year.

They are not as bad as the Dark Angels, but they are still pretty bad. You are forced to buy a veteran sarge and all your guys cost 17-18pts each. Chaos, with all the same grenade upgrades plus 2 weapons+bolter which the BA don't get, are still 15pts. The basic troop choice is not worth it.

All jump pack armies can be played, but then you have little room for shooting. In my experience 8-man assault squads are the best because that frees up points for more shooting elements.

Their serious lack of anti-tank firepower is countered by making attack bikes with multimeltas the same cost as a regular attack bikes. While this is nice, attack bikes work better as secondary heavy weapon platforms and not primary ones. As Primary ones they are singled out and destroyed more easily.

All in all the DA and BA are in the same boat. Hosed beyond belief. Conspiracy theorists contend the rumored 5th edition changes are a response to the horrendous rules written for DA and BA. Even if that is the case, the overcosts inherent in the list lends both armies to one off 'fun' games of a noncompetitive nature.

Schepp himself wrote:Is it just me or did those guys disappeared somewhat?
The inevitable first cry of cheese vanished and then came...well...nothing really?
Are they viable? Competitive? Or is their mini-codex just bad? I don't see them discussed that much neither in good nor bad ways (like the DA for example).

Insight welcomed!

Greets
Schepp himself

I don't remember ANY cry of cheese so much as the cry of
the nerf bat.

In case you missed it, GW "re-did" the Codex through white dwarf and
is available online.

They're "fair" now, instead of stupid & cheesy. BA players actually pay something (discounted) for their Death Company, and the rest of the army follows the Codex Astartes (as their 2E Fluff stated very clearly).

They fall into the morass of armies that are "2nd Tier" or rather lists that are actually overpowered in one way or another.

All jump packers is possible, but not as good as what Codex Marines can give you. With Death Company and combat squad Devs being the only "really good" things in the BA list.

Voodoo Boyz has it spot on.

I made a mech list for the BA, it can work but it's seriously stretching the Codex to do so.

The BA codex, like the DA codex, is a perfectly balanced list. It's got one or two really great elements like Death Company, Mephiston, and Baal predators, but this is outweighed by middling troops choices and overcosting of nearly all options.

Much like the DA book, if all books were written in a similar style and power level, they'd be superlative. As it stands, it pales in comparison not only to the SM codex, but also to the recently released Chaos book in terms of both options and power.

In addition, while 3rd edition Blood Angels were ridiculously good, the army lost a certain amount of punch in the switch to 4th edition and the demise of rhino rush. While the army functioned well as a flexible semi-SAFH with las plas, baals, and a big death company, after 4th edition hit it was never really considered a "Strong" army, and the new book, while it re-invented the look in ways I like, did nothing to beef up the list.

JohnHwangDD wrote:...and the rest of the army follows the Codex Astartes (as their 2E Fluff stated very clearly).

They sure do, what with all those Assault Squads as troops... wait...

Unless the current Blood Angel list represents the 8th Company, they're not following the fluff.

BYE

They're fine and balanced now. They occupy the same level of power (roughly) as Dark Angels, non-Zilla Tyranids, Tau, etc. That's where all the armies should be, so it's hard to fault them on that ground.

Unfortunately, it's not really exciting to discuss the list on the 'net since there's not a ton to criticize.

The Furioso isn't all that great, but the Baal Predator is pretty decent.

Overall, they're more fun to play with and against than the previous list, assuming your opponent isn't a gibbering maladjusted power-gaming Cheeto.

DarthDiggler wrote:They are not as bad as the Dark Angels, but they are still pretty bad. You are forced to buy a veteran sarge and all your guys cost 17-18pts each. Chaos, with all the same grenade upgrades plus 2 weapons+bolter which the BA don't get, are still 15pts. The basic troop choice is not worth it.

Chaos don't get ATSKNF. Which most people would gladly pay 1-2 points for.

IntoTheRain got to it before me. The Blood Angels get "And They Shall Know No Fear" which is incredibly useful. They also get combat squads, the Death Company (which I don't use but it's still nice know that I could), all the heavy stuff that an ordinary Space Marine Chapter gets, plus one of the coolest Dreadnoughts around (the Furioso, second in coolness next to the Mortis configuration).

I have a Space Marine army that I configured so I could play it either as Space Marines or Chaos Marines, which is nice because these armies work quite differently. I think the Blood Angel's list is extremely good and I'm very pleased with the way they've been refurbished from the 3rd edition Codex. In particular I love Devastators split into combat squads!

DarthDiggler wrote:You are forced to buy a veteran sarge and all your guys cost 17-18pts each.

You conveniently "forgot" to note that each guy buys a portion of a Death Company marine who is an Assault Veteran with FA, FNP, Rending, and Fearless. Each DC marine is worth 18 pts base +10 pts for skills.

Not to mention that with Combat Squads and the close combat targeting rules, the Veteran Sergeant with a Powerfist is pretty much standard issue for BA and DA anyway.

I don't take Veteran Sergeants with Power Fists, since I like breaking my squads into combat squads. The squad is too small of the Sergeant to hide into, and he either gets picked out by the 'torrent of blows' or simply killed before he can use his Power Fist special close combat attacks. If he just uses his normal attacks to get something in before he's killed by I2+ models, then he doesn't get the benefit of the Power Fist. The Power Sword is cheaper, gives him a benefit when he needs it, and doesn't make him look like a ROOSTER-knocker.

/Jay and Silent Bob?

(Edited for language by The Family Inquisition)

So the power level seems to be rather OK without knowing the changes of 5th edition. Are you people satisfied with the changes in army composition, do they have a niche or are just the ugly relatives of space marines without much going for them except red armor?

@manfred: The cry of cheese I remember was about the Assault Marines in Troops. But as so often, it died off after some time.

Thanks for the info guys!

Greets
Schepp himself

IntoTheRain wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:They are not as bad as the Dark Angels, but they are still pretty bad. You are forced to buy a veteran sarge and all your guys cost 17-18pts each. Chaos, with all the same grenade upgrades plus 2 weapons+bolter which the BA don't get, are still 15pts. The basic troop choice is not worth it.

Chaos don't get ATSKNF. Which most people would gladly pay 1-2 points for.

Chaos marines have a higher leadership and do better against leadership based attacks. ATSKNF does not always help out when you get hit with mind war, psychic scream(s) or Fear the darkness. Nor does it help vs. target priority tests which could make all the difference during the game.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:You are forced to buy a veteran sarge and all your guys cost 17-18pts each.

You conveniently "forgot" to note that each guy buys a portion of a Death Company marine who is an Assault Veteran with FA, FNP, Rending, and Fearless. Each DC marine is worth 18 pts base +10 pts for skills.

And you conviently forgot to mention those Death Company Marines come walking (+10 each for jump packs) and cost 30pts more for each one to add to the unit. Free Death Company are nice, but 4-5 walking Death Company are a waste of points.

Schepp himself wrote:So the power level seems to be rather OK without knowing the changes of 5th edition. Are you people satisfied with the changes in army composition, do they have a niche or are just the ugly relatives of space marines without much going for them except red armor?

@manfred: The cry of cheese I remember was about the Assault Marines in Troops. But as so often, it died off after some time.

Thanks for the info guys!

Greets
Schepp himself

Even if all the 'zealots' prayers on this board where answered and every codex was magically rewritten all at once instead of the current 2/year, the BA would still be inferior to the current Chaos Codex which is not going anywhere for a long time.

DarthDiggler wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:You are forced to buy a veteran sarge and all your guys cost 17-18pts each.

You conveniently "forgot" to note that each guy buys a portion of a Death Company marine who is an Assault Veteran with FA, FNP, Rending, and Fearless. Each DC marine is worth 18 pts base +10 pts for skills.

And you conviently forgot to mention those Death Company Marines come walking (+10 each for jump packs) and cost 30pts more for each one to add to the unit. Free Death Company are nice, but 4-5 walking Death Company are a waste of points.

Except that 30 pts is a fair price for a walking Death Company Marine and 10 pts is a fair price for adding a Jump Pack to him.

Those DC Marines with JPs are worth 40 pts, and now you pay for it. So you can stop your complaining.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:You are forced to buy a veteran sarge and all your guys cost 17-18pts each.

You conveniently "forgot" to note that each guy buys a portion of a Death Company marine who is an Assault Veteran with FA, FNP, Rending, and Fearless. Each DC marine is worth 18 pts base +10 pts for skills.

And you conviently forgot to mention those Death Company Marines come walking (+10 each for jump packs) and cost 30pts more for each one to add to the unit. Free Death Company are nice, but 4-5 walking Death Company are a waste of points.

Except that 30 pts is a fair price for a walking Death Company Marine and 10 pts is a fair price for adding a Jump Pack to him.

Those DC Marines with JPs are worth 40 pts, and now you pay for it. So you can stop your complaining.

Does anyone have any effective BA lists to share then?

It seems that with the new Mini-Dex they've become a very "elite" and small (model count) army that is NOT very forgiving to play...

FWIW, my BA concept army is like this:

Jump Captain w/ twinLCs
Jump Chaplain

7 DC w/ JPs
2x 5 Assault Vets w/ Flamers, PW

2x 5 Assault w/ Pistols, PF

3x 10 Devastator w/ 3 HB / 3 ML / 3 PC & 1 Lascannon

This is almost 60 models.

Under the current Traits SM, it is better and meaner with more guys, 6-man squads, extra Las/Plas, etc. But as Traits will go away, this is what's left.

JohnHwangDD wrote:FWIW, my BA concept army is like this:

Jump Captain w/ twinLCs
Jump Chaplain

7 DC w/ JPs
2x 5 Assault Vets w/ Flamers, PW

2x 5 Assault w/ Pistols, PF

3x 10 Devastator w/ 3 HB / 3 ML / 3 PC & 1 Lascannon

This is almost 60 models.

Under the current Traits SM, it is better and meaner with more guys, 6-man squads, extra Las/Plas, etc. But as Traits will go away, this is what's left.

Do you really think Traits will disappear completely?

I don't think they will, though I do think they'll be heavily modified.

Or, at least I'm hoping that's the case.

But then, I'd really like Librarians to stay close to "as they are" and retain their choice of Psychic Powers.

...

I expect Traits will disappear completely, because the SM Traits list with Elite Furious Assault Marines is simply better than the BA list. If you have Traits, there is no reason to play BA. Therefore GW needs to remove Traits so BA can be special and distinctive.

At best you might see Special Characters that modify their Veterans slightly. Captain Shrike of the Raven Guard allows players to upgrade Veterans with Jump Packs for +10 pts/model. Captain Khan of the White Scars allows players to upgrade Veterans with Bikes. And so on.

I think Librarians will have choices, just like Sorcerors have choices.

JohnHwangDD wrote:FWIW, my BA concept army is like this:

Jump Captain w/ twinLCs
Jump Chaplain

7 DC w/ JPs
2x 5 Assault Vets w/ Flamers, PW

2x 5 Assault w/ Pistols, PF

3x 10 Devastator w/ 3 HB / 3 ML / 3 PC & 1 Lascannon

This is almost 60 models.

Under the current Traits SM, it is better and meaner with more guys, 6-man squads, extra Las/Plas, etc. But as Traits will go away, this is what's left.

I am sorry, but this is a horrendous list that would struggle taking out the simplest armor let alone anything with substance. It gets pathetically outshot and outassaulted by by simple static chaos gun lines. Please don't spread this list. Anyone who spends money on it will regret it and quit the game out of frustration. Maybe that's why GW's numbers are down.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:You are forced to buy a veteran sarge and all your guys cost 17-18pts each.

You conveniently "forgot" to note that each guy buys a portion of a Death Company marine who is an Assault Veteran with FA, FNP, Rending, and Fearless. Each DC marine is worth 18 pts base +10 pts for skills.

And you conviently forgot to mention those Death Company Marines come walking (+10 each for jump packs) and cost 30pts more for each one to add to the unit. Free Death Company are nice, but 4-5 walking Death Company are a waste of points.

Except that 30 pts is a fair price for a walking Death Company Marine and 10 pts is a fair price for adding a Jump Pack to him.

Those DC Marines with JPs are worth 40 pts, and now you pay for it. So you can stop your complaining.

John I do not agree with you. Let me stop you now before you send up another 100+ posts to drown out any disagreement with your fringe positions. If any of this was 'worth it' I would expect to see a BA army anywhere, but I don't.

My Blood Angels have:

Company Captain (Called a "Lieutenant") in Terminator Armour

Terminator Squad (5) with Heavy Flamer and one Chain Fist

Scout Squad (10) with Bolters and a Heavy Bolter, led by a Veteran Sergeant with a Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, and Melta-bombs.

Furioso Dreadnought with a Heavy Flamer and Extra Armour

Four Tactical Squads (10 each) lead by Veteran Sergeants with Power Weapons, Bolt Pistols, and Melta-Bombs. Two squads have Meltaguns and Heavy Bolters, Two squads have Missile Launchers, one with a Flamer and the other with a Plasmagun. Each squad has a Rhino with Extra Armour.

One Devastator Squad (5) lead by a Veteran Sergeant with a Power Weapon and a Bolt Pistol. Each Marine is armed with a Multi-Melta. The squad has a Rhino with Extra Armour.

As a Chaos Marine army they have:

Chaos Lord (Called a "Lieutenant") in Terminator Armour with a Power Weapon, a Twin-linked Bolter, and the Mark of Khorne.

Terminator Squad (5) led by a Champion with a Power Weapon, while three have Power Fists and Twin-linked Bolters, one has a Power Fist and a Heavy Flamer and one has a Chainfist and a Twin-linked Bolter.

A Chosen Squad (10) with a Heavy Bolter, and led by an Aspiring Champion with an Icon of Chaos Glory, and a Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, and Melta-Bombs.

A Chaos Dreadnought with an Extra Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon, a Twin-linked Bolter, and a Heavy Flamer.

Four Chaos Marine Squads (10 each) lead by Aspiring Champions with Power Weapons, Bolt Pistols, and Melta-Bombs. Two squads have Meltaguns and Heavy Bolters, Two squads have Missile Launchers, one with a Flamer and the other with a Plasmagun. Each squad has a Rhino with Extra Armour.

One Havoc Squad (5) lead by a Veteran Sergeant with a Power Weapon and a Bolt Pistol. Each Marine is armed with a Meltagun. The squad has a Rhino with Extra Armour.

DarthDiggler wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:30 pts is a fair price for a walking Death Company Marine and 10 pts is a fair price for adding a Jump Pack to him.

Those DC Marines with JPs are worth 40 pts, and now you pay for it. So you can stop your complaining.

John I do not agree with you.

Let me stop you now before you send up another 100+ posts to drown out any disagreement with your fringe positions. If any of this was 'worth it' I would expect to see a BA army anywhere, but I don't.

That's OK. I don't agree with you, either.

By any fair points evaluation, a DC Marine is worth 30-odd points (18-pt statline + 12-pts for 4 USRs), and Jump Packs are definitely worth 10 points on a DC Marine. So the idea that you wouldn't be willing to pay 40 pts for a DC Marine with JP is kinda strange.

You're free to stop at any time. You have the choice of shutting up. But to be perfectly honest, you've done a pathetically terrible job of making a decent argument. Saying that you don't agree is fine. But I would expect you to explain why. But if you want to challenge the DC Marine value, then the onus is on you to show why that calculation fails. And that's paying full price for additional DC Marines. The DC Marines you get with BA squads aren't even charged the full 30 pts. IOW, if DC Marines were charged full price, and BA squads were charged normal points, the costs would be even higher overall. So crying that you don't agree is very weak.

Until you're prepared to contribute meaningfully to the discussion, I have a lot of trouble taking you seriously. All I see is some whiner who can't accept that his army was nerfed like it deserved, and isn't willing to pay a fair points value for his models.

What happened to the Blood Angels? THey got powered down, that's for sure. I'm still on the fence about whether or not they got pushed too far to the opposite end of the spectrum, however it is difficult to imagine GW NOT "over-adjusting" something. They got changed up quite a bit.

It seems like they are being pushed into being a CC army, as opposed to being an assault army like they used to be. Not sayign they were lacking in CC vs. assault, but their real strength was in the rolling assault. Keep the units assaulting as much as possible as opposed to keeping them merely in CC. However, it seems like GW wants ou to be taking... aw crap, what do we call these things that used to be Special Characters, but now are just Named IC's? Anyway, you really have to take the named IC's tomake the army really work as well as it can. It can work without them, but the rules they give "to every Blood Angels squad with a model witing 12". " are pletny attractive and really comlement the army, and some of them boys is Dirt Cheap. I say Dirt Cheap.

Problem is, "sniping" these guys can be oh so easy in CC.

Anyway, I'm no sure about them, but I know one thing. I'm going to keep playing them at my local, simply b/c so many others would not. If any of the WUSSES who USED to play them strictly when they were so easy to power game wanna drop them, go ahead. None of those at my local anyway .

Edited for inappropriate content by The Family Inquisition

DarthDiggler wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:FWIW, my BA concept army is like this:
[SNIP!]

I am sorry, but this is a horrendous list that would struggle taking out the simplest armor let alone anything with substance.

It gets pathetically outshot and outassaulted by by simple static chaos gun lines.

Please don't spread this list. Anyone who spends money on it will regret it and quit the game out of frustration. Maybe that's why GW's numbers are down.

In case you didn't notice, it's a roughly evenly-balanced all-comers with roughly equal amounts of mobile vs static and shooty vs fighty anti-tani vs anti-infantry.

For anti-tank use, I have 3 combat squads with a Lascannon, along with a combat squad with 3 MLs (krak) supporting 2 assault teams armed with 2 PP/PF. That's not a ton of anti-tank, but it isn't supposed to be.

For anti-infantry, 3 combat squads with 3 HBs, 3 MLs (frag), 3 PCs supporting 2 assault teams with Flamers & PW. Along with Chaplain & Librarian leading 7 Death Company.

Against a similarly-balanced Chaos list, I'm sure it would give a decent showing and a good game.

But go ahead and show us a better list, since you have all the answers... :eyeroll: