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Interesting. DP have 5 attacks on the charge. With Warptime they hit and kill reliably. I6 is how I run my DP.

I'm unsure how 1 extra S4 attack on a WS5 T4 model with 3 wounds is (in theoryhammer land) better than 1 less attack @ S6 on a WS7 T5 model with 4 wounds. Especially when the Sorc eats the powerfist and dies, and the DP goes 'ow!'.

Let me see, the IG attack a DP. They need 5's then 6's to wound.

The same IG attack a sorc, needing 4's then 5's to wound.

So if you can't reliably kill marines (the Sorc cannot even with warptime because of his S4) and you can't fend off IG...you better stick to your Lash, bud.

I guess I'm also confused on how you Lash and Fleet in the same turn on your uber horsie. Explain please?

DP is a large target. Yes, that's a given. The Sorc is safe, but besides lash and a few kills he's not very killy nor survivable in CC.

I'd love to know how a DP on the other side of ANY area terrain that's size 3 (please, if you play with "grass"...oh my) which is what most people use, will be visible. Do you specifically fear MC so much you count ruined buildings as size 2? I've seen it before, just curious if it's only size 2 models get love where ya play.

Blackmoor wrote:Do you want me to come down there and show you one?

Yes please. Hit me...I like to feel...lol. My Templars are always up to the challenge.

Capt K

Stelek wrote:Interesting. DP have 5 attacks on the charge. With Warptime they hit and kill reliably. I6 is how I run my DP.

I know you like to take every thread in a different direction than the topic, but try to keep on point.

The topic is a Lash Demon Prince vs a Lash Sorcerer.

A Lash DP can only take a Lash vs. a Sorcerer that can take Lash+Warptime.

The choice of which is better for an army is really dependent on what's in the rest of you list.

If your goal of the lash is to lash things for templates (Oblits, Defilers, Vindi's) or to make other troops more effective (Rapid Fire 1kSons, Charging Bezerkers/Raptors) then the sorcerer is probably the better choice, since he can zip around and lash while staying "safe" from shooting.

The Lash Prince is more about helping the Prince him (or her)self be more effective. This can ensure that they'll see combat, even in unfavorable terrain setups, and it can keep things like Powerfists being less of a threat since you can setup your own Killzone and eliminate such problems.

Personally, having played Necrons vs. a single Lash Sorcerer backing up a Khorne styled list, if it was a DP instead of the Sorcerer, I'd have won that game.

Uhh DP's do have 5 attacks on the charge. You were talking about Tzeentch sorcerors, who can't take lash...so who's going off point?

Tzeentch sorcs still can't take lash, no matter how many familiars they have.

Others mentioned 1 Lash and 1 Warptime DP, so make sure when firing your guns put them out against everyone not just me, thanks.

Voodoo, why would you have won? HB him to death?

Because the moment he came out to lash, and was in LOS, I would have shot the ever living hell out of him with my entire army. As opposed to the Sorcerer, who was immensely harder to get the chance to hurt.

And from playing Necrons and new Orks, you learn that you can make things with 3+ Saves die, even if they have T6 or T5. Of course it helps when you've got units like Immortals and Destroyers.

EDIT: I should point out that my opponent was using the Lash to get his army into combat, putting it as a support role. And that I was going to win the game until the last turn when a huge lash roll moved a unit of immortals into assault range of a Greater Demon (who just popped out), who promptly died and then caused Phase Out.

Redbeard wrote:You got your math wrong. A daemon prince gets 4 attacks, hits on 3+, wounds on 2+ (S6) - 4 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 2.22 T4 kills/turn.

That is also the number of Fire Warriors, Guardsman, and Eldar Guardians you will kill.


The Sorcerer has a lot of things it can do.
With the Force Weapon it can take down TMC.
With a steed it can charge 19"-24" and go head hunting enemy HQs with it's I6 and Force Weapon (and crisis suits).
On the charge with Steed+Warptime it averages 4 dead marines.
If you charge it into a squad of IG or Fire Warriors they will not be outnumbered and have a better chance of staying.
And that does not even go into what you can do with the Lash.

Lash+Warptime+Steed+Force Weapon=A very good package that give you a lot of options.

Sure, it is a good package with a lot of options. And yet, against one of the most common armies you'll see in tournaments, it's utterly and completely useless.

I speak, of course, of mech eldar. Again I pose the question, what is your expensive sorcerer going to do against a falcon? What's it going to do when there are no infantry on the table to lash?

A Daemon Prince, at 30 points less, is NEVER useless. Even against enemy units that it cannot hope to hurt, it can always bide its time and claim an objective. Or a table quarter.

We can sit here coming up with contrived scenarios in which one or the other has the advantage all day. I'll grant your sorcerer the edge in headhunting. And, I'll conceed that there are times when you don't want to break a unit on the turn you charge. Those are pluses for the sorcerer. But, protection versus powerfists and lower cost are pluses for the prince. The tie breaker is that the prince is a scoring unit. It's never a useless model. That's the most significant reason to take a prince. Cause there's not a single situation you can present where a prince has no use, and there are plenty that render a sorcerer ineffectual.

Redbeard wrote:Sure, it is a good package with a lot of options. And yet, against one of the most common armies you'll see in tournaments, it's utterly and completely useless.

I speak, of course, of mech eldar. Again I pose the question, what is your expensive sorcerer going to do against a falcon? What's it going to do when there are no infantry on the table to lash?

I see your false argument all of the time.

It’s as if you are playing in a 1500 point game, all you have is a Sorcerer vs. a Falcon.

What you should have is a well rounded army that should be able to handle Mech Eldar. After downing a couple of Wave Serpents, there should be plenty of work for the Sorcerer. Also, Mech Eldar normally have troops that a Sorcerer can be of some use. Dragging Rangers out of cover, hitting Jetbikes etc.

Ironically, Eldar are also one of the worst match ups for a DP too.

And I am not saying that the Demon Prince is bad. I often use one with a Sorcerer, but everyone was saying that the DP is a no-brainer choice, and all I am saying is that both of them are good choices.

Redbeard wrote: ... Maybe I'm looking for the ability to move the powerfist guy to be one of only two models in my killzone. Drop him and the rest of the unit will fall ...

40kenthusiast wrote:... Lash the Crons into pie plate formation ...

I might be wrong here, but where does it say that when you Lash the unit you get to change it's formation? my understanding is that you just move the unit as is in the same formation, in a direction and inches...

Sounds like these guys are Lashing the squad into a group forrmation or a long line...


Panic

It's up to debate, but since this isn't Fantasy I don't think the debate will last long. /shrug

remember that the cost of the sorceror will need to include all those bodies to protect him. DP has T5, 4W and Eternal Warrior default for 110, Sorc has all those costly bits to keep him living plus all those bodies to protect him. While they do shoot, attack, score etc. their role in this situation is to protect the sorc from s8+ weapons. Since the sorc is moving fast he's probably going with raptors or very expensive bikes.

Just my thoughts.

The sorcerer moves just as fast as any infantry when he's not planning on charging-- assuming he lashes. So he can just chill in the midst of your army, no need to be babysat. That’s the theory anyway.

In reality, unless your army is built around raptors and the lash, I don't think taking a movement upgrade in worth it. Mind you, a lash/raptor army would be pretty good. EC as troops. Havocs as HS. Stick some meltaguns on the raptors to make up for the lack of oblits. Not a substitute, I know, but in this situation...

I don't actually own the codex, so points may be a bit off. I don't know how much meltas on raptors or warptime costs for example.

x2 Sorcerer- 180
-Wings, MoS, Familiar, warptime, lash

x3 EC- 185
5 with sonic blasters
1 with Blastmaster

x2 Raptors- 240
4 basic Raptors
2 with meltas
1 IoS
1 champ with fist

x2 Havocs- 185
2 basic havocs
1 with lascannon
3 with missile launchers

That’s 1765, I can't be bothered to trim it because (A) I know the points are off anyway, (B) It's just a sample list.
After seeing how expensive two power sorcerers are, it might be better to do two just lash, or one lash, one warptime.

-Leo037

If we're discussing this, I think Jump Pack Lash Sorceror and Steed Lash Sorceror are used in two different ways. Jump Pack leads Raptors and zips up the table. Steed Lash probably starts the game marching, using Lash to pull units towards it and then is capable of a long charge (maybe even with his meltabomb) if necessary.

The Steed Lash Sorc is just simply an interesting bloke that brings some nice jack of all trades flexibility to the list.

I was thinking my own list would use a Steed Lash Sorc alongside a Lord of Khorne or maybe a character with low mobility like Abby or Typhus. Toss in some Khornate engines of war (Preds and a Vindi), some summoned demons and maybe a spawn or two and you've got yourself a party.

I'm taking this question to be: Which unit is objectively better, and which unit will make the better overall army list?

Without question the Prince list will be better.

Is the lash sorc usable? Yes. Is he decent even, possibly better than an average HQ choice from any army? Yep. Is he still worse than a scoring monstrous creature HQ? Yep.

Panic wrote:

Redbeard wrote: ... Maybe I'm looking for the ability to move the powerfist guy to be one of only two models in my killzone. Drop him and the rest of the unit will fall ...

40kenthusiast wrote:... Lash the Crons into pie plate formation ...

I might be wrong here, but where does it say that when you Lash the unit you get to change it's formation? my understanding is that you just move the unit as is in the same formation, in a direction and inches...

Sounds like these guys are Lashing the squad into a group forrmation or a long line...


Panic

The description doesn't say anything about keeping them in the same formation. heck, depending on where you move them, it might be impossible to keep them in the same formation.
The only thing the rules say are that you get to move the models 2d6 inches and you have to keep them in coherency.
As long as you move each model that distance, there is absolutely no problem with bunching them up & having at them with you Oblit's Plas Cannons.

Eric

Must each model be moved the full distance? Could this be metigated by "doubling back"?

-Leo037

The Lash Prince, in an escalation scenario misses the most important Lash, the first. He might even miss the second. Double lash princes will, at the bottom of round 2, have lashed once, on average. That's 7 inches of total enemy movement.

By contrast, the Double lash Sorcerers have lashed 4 times, for 28" of enemy movement. You could drag an enemy unit into your own deployment zone!

Even more compelling, the first and second lash of the game are the most important. They will, on an average result, give you a turn one charge with your foot sloggers. Even if that doesn't pan out, they are the only lashes you can make with all/almost all of your army intact. The Princes miss those.

Vs. an Ork rush list they are going to show up and your side is already going to be swamped with Orks. Your infantry will be amass in bodies.

The Lash is the HQ slot, the Sorcerer is just the cheapest/ most enduring chump to hang onto it. I know this flies in the face of scoring unit strategy, but I stand by it. Lash is that good.

If the 5th edition rumors are to be believed, then the Lash Prince will lose his scoring status. How does that affect the comparrison between the two HQ units now?

Even less compelling are intelligent players that setup far enough away so you cannot first turn charge.

Then with your raptors/zerkers/whatever sitting out in the open with their edited, it's time for the other guy to shoot your CC units to death.

Lots and lots of ways to screw over lash.

I wonder how uber lash is when you face a terminator army? lol

Stelek wrote:Even less compelling are intelligent players that setup far enough away so you cannot first turn charge.

Then with your raptors/zerkers/whatever sitting out in the open with their dicks in the wind, it's time for the other guy to shoot your CC units to death.

Lots and lots of ways to screw over lash.

I wonder how uber lash is when you face a terminator army? lol

It would be harder for that tactic to work with double lashes. Two sorcerers on bike zoom up 12" and can reach the enemy deployed on their table edge. 16 Cult Marines move up 6. Enemy unit that deployed back gets lashed twice. I suppose if the enemy deployed everything on the very back table edge this would be hard unless you lashed them into something that moved fast like Raptors or Spawn.

I contend the best use of Lash is not to build an army around it and hope the Lash wins for you every time. It is to build a regular, balanced amry and have the Lash as icing on the cake. Against some armies it is devestating. Orks, Necrons, Tau, other foot armies, etc.. Against Mechanised armies it will need to wait until transports get popped or anti-psychic abilities/wargear goes away. However since it is not the sole reason the army was built, it's non-use should not be that detrimental.

Cypher037 wrote:Must each model be moved the full distance? Could this be metigated by "doubling back"?

-Leo037

That's really unclear. By RAW, it seems that the answer is "Yes. They must be moved the full distance." Though many doubt that is what RAI is.

Nothing is said against "zig-zag" moves or doubling back.
It's not akin to bikes turbo boosting, where the final distance has to be "x." It just says to move them the distance rolled (LOOSE QUOTES there).

Hope this helps.

Eric

Guess my real problem with the Sorcs is you can crush them with Eldar tanks and Chaos has a hell of a time killing those Tanks.

I don't really worry much about double lashes if I'm on my board edge. Are you really setting up your assault units 12" in? Makes for a bad time when you don't get first turn.

I guess it's total lack of success even when I 'play' into it, is what's got me thinking it's crap.