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Didn't the Rhino Rush require that you actually be able to assault out of your Transport for it to work effectively?

The "Area terrain does not block LOS" subtley devalues Kroot a bit, and thereby nerfs the Tau a little bit more.

Salvation122 wrote:Via Bell of Lost Souls:
-------------------------------
Shooting
-There's now a reason to have a BS higher than 5 (can we say 2+/5+?).
-All models friend or foe now block line of sight. Vehicles and Monstrous Creature can be targeted over intervening infantry.
-Area terrain does not block line of sight.
-All blast weapons now scatter..

Ok with High BS. Seems pointless but whatever.
Ok with the models block LOS, I guess.
Terrain, doesn't make sense unless new categories of terrain are sprouting up.
Blast weapons suck hard right now. Making them worse is nonsensical.

Salvation122 wrote:

Vehicles
-Defensive weapons on vehicles are now Str 4 and below.
-Skimmers Moving Fast is now a 5+ cover save. (I have heard this is the new rule for All Obscured Targets)
-Dedicated transports can now carry any unit (subject to normal restrictions, i.e., no Terminators) and are no longer the deathtraps they have been (no entangling, just pinning).
-AP 1 weapons add +1 to the vehicle damage chart instead of doing as they do now.
-Ordinance weapons roll 2d6 and pick the highest on the vehicle damage table.
.

Defensive weapons to S4 is way too limited. S5 might be ok, but s4 is worthless.
5+ cover save is meh.
AP 1 change nerfs theWitchhunters hard. The current system iis the only chance that army has of penetrating AV 14.
I thought that was ord weapons did right now.

Salvation122 wrote:
Miscellaneous
-Independent Character targeting restrictions have been eased.
-There is no IC protection any longer unless he is joined to a unit
-ICs within 2" of a unit automatically join it..

Good. Let's make IC's less worthwhile then they are right now.

Salvation122 wrote:
-Dark Eldar are not gone, as they're mentioned in the rules (their jetbikes DO get the 6" assault)..

Who cares? Not really news. Jervis has stated they will get support at an unspecified point in the future.

Salvation122 wrote:
-Frag grenades operate as plasma grenades now..

Probably for the best.

Salvation122 wrote:
-Monstrous creatures get move through cover, not a reroll..

Saves some time

Salvation122 wrote:
-Saving Throws are now made AFTER wound allocation. This means you could still roll all your generic troopers as a group, but will need to roll for each special model (serg, heavy weapons, etc) one by one. Torrent of Fire is gone..

Makes no sense really. That's one point I agreed with when we switched to third. Gunner goes down a new guy grabs the good gun.

Salvation122 wrote:
Missions
-The missions are different enough that Troops only counting as scoring isn't as big a deal as it would be today.
-Victory points are calculated differently in "cleanse" style missions (points calculated depending on the FOC slot the dead unit took up).
-Scouts and Infiltrators can now try to outflank the enemy and come on as reserves from a different board edge.
-Deepstrike is the same, but if you can't place all the models, you roll on the "deepstrike mishap" table (50% you're dead, 50% you place yourself anywhere you like).

Ok?

Salvation122 wrote:
Overall, the rules look a lot more detailed. Not as detailed as 2nd edition, but now there's a difference between a guy standing on the roof of a building and a guy standing in the basement. Actual line of sight matters a lot more than "pretend" line of sight now..

I didn't get that out of this but Ok.

I already have four full FW squads and two full Kroot squads so it won't make me buy any more models. Not that I'm a competition player.

This is certainly the biggest change we've had since the release of 3rd. In fact, in some ways it's almost like v2.5. I don't mind seeing an overhaul per se, but I'm sure they're going to create a whole new series of issues in the game. It'll just take a little while before some of them are evident.

Makes you think, if "Vehicles and Monstrous Creature can be targeted over intervening infantry." then certainly they should be able to shoot back over the intervening infantry, right?

That would make a LOT of cool setups where tanks and anti-tank specialists could duke it out, and it removes a lot of stupidity from the screening rules that you might think of.

Just a quick thought: If you allocate hits BEFORE making Armor saves, this totally eliminates "Majority Armor" rules, doesn't it? So having a Sarge wearing extra armor is not so useless now.

Still... stupid rule.

I am hoping the "blast weapons scatter" rule is going to be "If a miss is rolled, the blast template scatters." That might add a little benefit to them, especially on thing like IG.

I really hope I am not going to have to determine LOS through a loose squad of Sisters to see if the unit behind can see around/through them to shoot.

Also, I strongly suspect they are going to go to a vehicle damage chart like Apoc. The AP1 = +1 on the roll only makes that more likely I think. It will probably be STR = AV = -2 on the roll, Str > AV even, Str D or AP 1 = +1. Probably will work out alright.

I wouldn't be surprised if area terrain gives a flat bonus to anything being shot through it. I think though that the 6" rule makes a lot of sense, as sooner or later you get enough trees that you can no longer see through it etc.

All the 4th edition rules on shooting, hitting, wounding and saving are completely screwed up. Getting rid of Majority Armour and Toughness would simplify them a lot.

Not really, it just replaces torrent of fire with a clear setup. If you take less wounds than there are models in a unit, then you allocate them to the grunts, and roll. But if you have say 10 Marines (w/ Special, PF Sarge, and Heavy Weapons) and your opponent does 12 Wounds, you'd allocate the first 7 to the grunts, then one each to the special troopers who roll separately, and then 2 excess also to the grunts.

It just makes torrent of fire a standard rule instead of being restricted to people who know how to "call out torrent on model X" in a game.

Wow... 5th keeps getting weirder and weirder.

Are they still doing the line that 4th ed. Codexes will be compatible? As 5th ed. becomes more and more drastically different, it's hard to believe that that could possibly work.

For example, Frag Grenades will have one set of rules in the main book and one set of rules in Codex: Dark Angels. Normally army specific rules trump, so the Dark Angels rules would be used. But, the main book would be published later, so would those rules be used? More importantly, will Jervis' kid (or any new player) be able to figure that out assuming no internet access and no FAQs?

S4 and below defensive weapons is just annoying. Combined with the ability to target multiple units (also rumoured), most vehicles will never move the whole game. - Even Falcons will now be stationary pillboxes.

Blocking Genestealers will Spinegaunts will be the in-thing again. I wonder if we'll see Shoot the Big Ones return also?

Blast weapons scattering is just bizzare. They're generally held as too weak for the points already. All this does is make Lascannons that much better than Plasma Cannons. (Any with declining numbers of heavy weapons, Lascannons are already squeezing out other less versatile weapons.)

I hope these rumours aren't accurate - the same for most of the 5th ed. rumours actually.

Deadshane1 wrote:He was being sarcastic.

You don't understand. I know he wasn't seriously suggesting the system is too complicated. He was riffing on the common cry of 'dumbing down' so beloved on the internet. That was kind of obvious, to be completely honest.

It's that he ignored the obvious of the current rule, where units are often better off assault a target in cover, and troops with good IN and armour are generally best off avoiding cover entirely to make that same, tired old comment.

It just feels like people looking for something to complain about. An odd thing to reach for when there's so much out there in the rumours that look pretty dodgy.



Back on track...

I doubt we'll see the old third ed situation of armies forming up in columns, as your own troops block LOS as well. But then maybe we'll see troops in the front standing in LOS of the enemy screening for the heavy weapons behind them, then moving out the way during their own turn... but I hope not as that'd be really, really stupid.

One thing I can see coming to the fore is 'stealer armies led by a screen of gaunts. Maybe rending won't be as good, but you can be confident of a whole lot more 'stealers reaching the enemy. At least that'll be kind of cool.

sebster wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:He was being sarcastic.

You don't understand. I know he wasn't seriously suggesting the system is too complicated. He was riffing on the common cry of 'dumbing down' so beloved on the internet. That was kind of obvious, to be completely honest.

It's that he ignored the obvious of the current rule, where units are often better off assault a target in cover, and troops with good IN and armour are generally best off avoiding cover entirely to make that same, tired old comment.

It just feels like people looking for something to complain about. An odd thing to reach for when there's so much out there in the rumours that looks pretty dodgy.



Back on track...

I doubt we'll see the old third ed situation of armies forming up in columns, as your own troops block LOS as well. But then maybe we'll see troops in the front standing in LOS of the enemy then moving out the way during your own turn... but I hope not as that'd be really, really stupid.

Even better, if the unit has Fleet, they can block line of sight for the enemy Devastators, move out of the way in the movement phase, and then use Fleet of Foot at the end of the shooting phase to reblock them after you've blasted away. Cheap Gaunts or even Guardians would be great for this.

Asmodai wrote:
Even better, if the unit has Fleet, they can block line of sight for the enemy Devastators, move out of the way in the movement phase, and then use Fleet of Foot at the end of the shooting phase to reblock them after you've blasted away. Cheap Gaunts or even Guardians would be great for this.

Fleet? If the "run" rumor is true, then this is possible with regular troops!

On one hand, it's
On the other hand, it makes me laugh.

Asmodai wrote:Even better, if the unit has Fleet, they can block line of sight for the enemy Devastators, move out of the way in the movement phase, and then use Fleet of Foot at the end of the shooting phase to reblock them after you've blasted away. Cheap Gaunts or even Guardians would be great for this.

Not even GW could release something as obviously goofy as that... Something has to missing from the rumours, possibly the idea that someone just made the whole troop blocking LOS thing up. Hopefully, anyway.

Hmm, the whole all models blocking LOS thing has an interesting effect on IG gunlines. Sure, keeping anti-tank squads alive longer is nice, but not having multiple lines of fire really hurts. Of course, this might lead to a cool new rule in the theoretical new IG codex.

All I know is that I've declared an official moratorium on buying new models until 5th edition is released. As the rumors spiral into weirder and weirder possibilities, I'd rather paint what I have then risk buying a new army to have it change in 6 months. Both of my complete armies are big enough to ride out changes, but no new armies!

GW never fails to impress with its short sighted rules writing. I'll only be addressing the really stupifying problems these revisions bring up: Comments in italics.

-All models friend or foe now block line of sight. Vehicles and Monstrous Creature can be targeted over intervening infantry.
This rule simultaneously smites infantry based firepower units in favour of helping assault based horde armies. Just off the top of my head things that would benefit are: Orks (Horde + Grot Screen making a return!), Tyranid (Gaunt Horde). Things that get hit hard with the nerf bat: Static infantry heavy-weapons teams. Things like dark reapers, devestator/havocs and IG heavy weapons teams. 3rd edition - protected from shooting and assaults by meatshield. 4th edition - protected from assaults by meatshield. 5th edition - can't fire at a damned thing if you use a meatshield, assault bait otherwise. Horde shooting armies also get hit hard as you can't fire past your own guys (often IN THE SAME SQUAD). Those huge Necron phalanxes and Shoota mobs are stuck with limited firepower unless you spread them out into a line. Necron problems are somewhat offset by the fact that your stupid scarab swarms are now a fast moving LOS wall.

-Area terrain does not block line of sight.
Nice. Invisible bunkers, walls and forests.

-All blast weapons now scatter.
Frag missiles just got THAT MUCH BETTER.

-Defensive weapons on vehicles are now Str 4 and below.
This is utterly pointless, considering that this forces you to waste your S4+ weps in order to fire your S4 weps at soft targets, and the S4 weps can't hurt hard targets, making the ability to shoot them moot. This also un-necessarily smites hammerheads and chimeras - neither of which was too powerful.

-Skimmers Moving Fast is now a 5+ cover save. (I have heard this is the new rule for All Obscured Targets)
Because Tau Skimmers were just -that- good, and landspeeders needed that invulnerable save.

-Dedicated transports can now carry any unit (subject to normal restrictions, i.e., no Terminators) and are no longer the deathtraps they have been (no entangling, just pinning).
The retardedness continues. Now that they can carry any unit, does this mean that they constitute their own slot? Do they stay outside force-org? Do they score? How does this affect who rides in them in the setup phase? Is this declared before escalation? Can a unit disembark from the transport and another one embark in the same turn? I'm sure these will be FAQed just in time for 6th edition.

-AP 1 weapons add +1 to the vehicle damage chart instead of doing as they do now.
Sweet. That means that Meltas now have even less chance of destroying a Necron Monolith. Go SOB!

-Ordinance weapons roll 2d6 and pick the highest on the vehicle damage table.
I'm not sure why they did this, considering that ordinance weapons were already wrecking stuff up on the 1/3 chance that they actually hit something... thanks to scattering all over the place.

-There is no IC protection any longer unless he is joined to a unit
-ICs within 2" of a unit automatically join it.
This one is beautiful. If your IC is in the middle of a horde of units. Which one is he joined to! See you in the FAQ, 2015!

-Frag grenades operate as plasma grenades now.
Hooray! Everyone get's space elf advanced-s7-non-throwable-non-killing-lets-fight-at-initiative-grenades!

-The missions are different enough that Troops only counting as scoring isn't as big a deal as it would be today.
Thanks for that reassurance GW! I feel much better now. Combat squads won't make this rule utterly stupid, because having 2x more scoring units than your opponent won't tip the balance in any way. They should put the GW rules writing department in charge of finance. That way, they'll always show record profits!

-Scouts and Infiltrators can now try to outflank the enemy and come on as reserves from a different board edge.
Hooray! While that's good tactically, What if your scouts and infiltrators are riding in the "can carry anyone" transport? Does that come on the board edge? (SM Vets / Chosen in a rhino/landraider?) Considering the amount of time it took for the Tau Pathfinder issue to be resolved, look for this to be FAQ'd in 2015!

Overall, the rules look a lot more detailed. Not as detailed as 2nd edition, but now there's a difference between a guy standing on the roof of a building and a guy standing in the basement. Actual line of sight matters a lot more than "pretend" line of sight now.
Uh... actual LOS matters, now that area terrain doesn't block LOS, and INFANTRY MODELS DO. That's a leap of logic there GW.

AlexCage wrote:Just a quick thought: If you allocate hits BEFORE making Armor saves, this totally eliminates "Majority Armor" rules, doesn't it? So having a Sarge wearing extra armor is not so useless now.

The armor option for Nobz kinda led me to think this was going to happen.

sebster wrote:One thing I can see coming to the fore is 'stealer armies led by a screen of gaunts. Maybe rending won't be as good, but you can be confident of a whole lot more 'stealers reaching the enemy. At least that'll be kind of cool.

Say hello again to 3rd edition rulebook Tyranid armies. Granted, those Genestealers had power weapons, but that army was top-tier competitive.

Asmodai wrote:Even better, if the unit has Fleet, they can block line of sight for the enemy Devastators, move out of the way in the movement phase, and then use Fleet of Foot at the end of the shooting phase to reblock them after you've blasted away. Cheap Gaunts or even Guardians would be great for this.

Do you think GW thought of this or tried it in their playtesting? I'm being half-serious.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Wow, if all Scouts & Infiltrators can come on from another board edge, what's the point of Snikrot, now we can do it with normal PK Nobz!

ill take that, but not at the expense of all this other crap. these batch of rumors seem far more unrealistic when compared to the first 2 batches.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Makes you think, if "Vehicles and Monstrous Creature can be targeted over intervening infantry." then certainly they should be able to shoot back over the intervening infantry, right?

That would make a LOT of cool setups where tanks and anti-tank specialists could duke it out, and it removes a lot of stupidity from the screening rules that you might think of.

Voodoo: You'd think that, but this is GW's subtle genius at work. Instead of trying to rebalance the armies, they just make EVERYTHING suck. Assault guys get shot from the front, because uh, they're the only guys that can be targeted. Heavy weapons guys can ONLY shoot the tanks. Tanks can shoot enemy guys in front, or Tanks. Guys in front can only shoot the guys in front! See! Simple. None of this tactical targeting. I'm sure GW will probably include a handy flow chart in the back of the book for those gamers age 5 and below who can't figure it out.

I'm looking forwards to assault armies with a shooting meatshield in front. Totally counter-intuitive. FANTASTIC.

keezus wrote:Frag missiles just got THAT MUCH BETTER.

I expect this will be "scatter on a miss," just like in 2nd ed.

Nice. Invisible bunkers, walls and forests.

To be fair, if the system goes to more true LOS, the walls and bunkers will still block. What I wonder is if the forests will block if they're 6" deep? There are a ton of 2nd edition inspirations at work here, so I'm not surprised area terrain doesn't get the infinite column anymore, at least. Forests did block LOS in 2nd, just up to their (visual) height.

I may haveta shorten the post on my flying Tyrant...

Because Tau Skimmers were just -that- good, and landspeeders needed that invulnerable save.

It's just odd to me that they don't go back to some hit modifiers. Everyone knows that speeders should be HARD TO HIT.

Hooray! Everyone get's space elf advanced-s7-non-throwable-non-killing-lets-fight-at-initiative-grenades!

Frag grenades made no sense, you have to admit.

Thanks for that reassurance GW! I feel much better now. Combat squads won't make this rule utterly stupid, because having 2x more scoring units than your opponent won't tip the balance in any way. They should put the GW rules writing department in charge of finance. That way, they'll always show record profits!

I think the whole Troops thing is silly and contrived. But I care less about it now because so much other stuff is changing. It still stinks, but maybe I won't smell it if it's buried under a bunch of other stuff.

Scouts and Infiltrators can now try to outflank the enemy and come on as reserves from a different board edge.

As in 2nd edition. See what I mean?

Honestly guys I would take all this with a grain of salt and possibly a few Advil. It only takes one person to make a post like this to cause a huge ripple effect. I could say I heard a rumor from a "reliable" source that says that "All Special Characters must now have a retinue and that retinue must consist of one of each FOC choice and those FOC choices take two FOC choices plus an extra HQ slot for the Special Character making it so that Special Characters can no longer be taken." Seriously, I wouldn't believe half this stuff. I know 40k is based off of WWI era combat with a heavy influence of HtH combat, but the way this reads is EVERYONE will have to take HtH armies in order to compete. I just wouldn't believe all this.

keezus wrote:GW never fails to impress with its short sighted rules writing. I'll only be addressing the really stupifying problems these revisions bring up: Comments in italics.

Dude, come on. You're reading off a rumour sheet and assuming every is taken as written. At absolute best, we're looking at summarised . Most likely we're looking at something lying between chinese whispers and outright fantasy.

-All models friend or foe now block line of sight. Vehicles and Monstrous Creature can be targeted over intervening infantry.
This rule simultaneously smites infantry based firepower units in favour of helping assault based horde armies. Just off the top of my head things that would benefit are: Orks (Horde + Grot Screen making a return!), Tyranid (Gaunt Horde). Things that get hit hard with the nerf bat: Static infantry heavy-weapons teams. Things like dark reapers, devestator/havocs and IG heavy weapons teams. 3rd edition - protected from shooting and assaults by meatshield. 4th edition - protected from assaults by meatshield. 5th edition - can't fire at a damned thing if you use a meatshield, assault bait otherwise. Horde shooting armies also get hit hard as you can't fire past your own guys (often IN THE SAME SQUAD). Those huge Necron phalanxes and Shoota mobs are stuck with limited firepower unless you spread them out into a line. Necron problems are somewhat offset by the fact that your stupid scarab swarms are now a fast moving LOS wall.

I will happily agree with you here. If true, this new rule is likely to suck pretty hard.

I'd like to see the return of gaunts running in advance of masses of 'stealers, but this is not the way to get there.

-Area terrain does not block line of sight.
Nice. Invisible bunkers, walls and forests.

Weird assumption. Most likely area terrain reverts to LOS. Guessing it magically stops blocking LOS is just odd an thing to do. Also, why are you classing walls as area terrain?

The idea of using an abstract system for area terrain, namely woods, to prevent a forest having to include every single tree to be useful for LOS blocking was a good idea. Unfortunately the rule managed to confuse around 90% of gamers, including many self-proclaimed veterans, who began to get not only area terrain rules wrong but regular LOS checks as well. Maybe going back to straight up LOS is for the best.

-All blast weapons now scatter.
Frag missiles just got THAT MUCH BETTER.

If all blast weapons work as G weapons do currently, which is a significant assumption. It's most likely they'll be directly placed if the shot is missed, and scatter is

But personally I doubt this rumour entirely. It doesn't fit at all with more recent trends of removing tedious mechanics from the game. It's an odd, unecessary regressive step.

-Defensive weapons on vehicles are now Str 4 and below.
This is utterly pointless, considering that this forces you to waste your S4+ weps in order to fire your S4 weps at soft targets, and the S4 weps can't hurt hard targets, making the ability to shoot them moot. This also un-necessarily smites hammerheads and chimeras - neither of which was too powerful.

If true, this is a terrible change. But again, it flies in the face of GW's stated aim to make units more mobile. Again, I doubt this is true.

-Skimmers Moving Fast is now a 5+ cover save. (I have heard this is the new rule for All Obscured Targets)
Because Tau Skimmers were just -that- good, and landspeeders needed that invulnerable save.

Dude, they lose access to glancing only. That's massive.

It means skimmers will tend to be unharmed or explode spectacularly, instead of the current situation where they generally grind to a half after several hits, completely. This means they'll feel a little more like light, mobile craft like attack 'copters.

-Dedicated transports can now carry any unit (subject to normal restrictions, i.e., no Terminators) and are no longer the deathtraps they have been (no entangling, just pinning).
The retardedness continues. Now that they can carry any unit, does this mean that they constitute their own slot? Do they stay outside force-org? Do they score? How does this affect who rides in them in the setup phase? Is this declared before escalation? Can a unit disembark from the transport and another one embark in the same turn? I'm sure these will be FAQed just in time for 6th edition.

Having a question based on a rumour and getting huffy about it is absurd.

-AP 1 weapons add +1 to the vehicle damage chart instead of doing as they do now.
Sweet. That means that Meltas now have even less chance of destroying a Necron Monolith. Go SOB!

Which assumes the new damage table will be exactly the same as the current tables. A big assumption, flying in the face of many of the rumours.

-Ordinance weapons roll 2d6 and pick the highest on the vehicle damage table.
I'm not sure why they did this, considering that ordinance weapons were already wrecking stuff up on the 1/3 chance that they actually hit something... thanks to scattering all over the place.

They're about as erratic as they should be, but not as damaging as they should be when they hit. So by the rumour they've changed that for the better. Are you suggesting ordinance is currently too powerful?

-There is no IC protection any longer unless he is joined to a unit
-ICs within 2" of a unit automatically join it.
This one is beautiful. If your IC is in the middle of a horde of units. Which one is he joined to! See you in the FAQ, 2015!

Again, a list of summarised rumours do not represent the actual rules. You don't have FAQs for rules that don't yet exist.

-Frag grenades operate as plasma grenades now.
Hooray! Everyone get's space elf advanced-s7-non-throwable-non-killing-lets-fight-at-initiative-grenades!

The current frag grenade rule is absurd. This thread is the first time I've seen anyone try to defend it... but then defending the current rule now allows people to rag on 5th ed, so I guess I can see why it's suddenly got so many fans.

-The missions are different enough that Troops only counting as scoring isn't as big a deal as it would be today.
Thanks for that reassurance GW! I feel much better now. Combat squads won't make this rule utterly stupid, because having 2x more scoring units than your opponent won't tip the balance in any way. They should put the GW rules writing department in charge of finance. That way, they'll always show record profits!

The rumour here is about mission structure not being based around scoring units as much as it is now. You ignored that almost entirely.

-Scouts and Infiltrators can now try to outflank the enemy and come on as reserves from a different board edge.
Hooray! While that's good tactically, What if your scouts and infiltrators are riding in the "can carry anyone" transport? Does that come on the board edge? (SM Vets / Chosen in a rhino/landraider?) Considering the amount of time it took for the Tau Pathfinder issue to be resolved, look for this to be FAQ'd in 2015!

If it isn't their vehicle, why would it come on the board with them? Why would you even think scouts get to deploy onto the board with some other unit's rhino? No unit at present gets to deploy with anyone else's vehicle... and non-dedicated transports don't get to deploy with infiltrating or scout units, so why on earth would you think this would be unclear?

Overall, the rules look a lot more detailed. Not as detailed as 2nd edition, but now there's a difference between a guy standing on the roof of a building and a guy standing in the basement. Actual line of sight matters a lot more than "pretend" line of sight now.
Uh... actual LOS matters, now that area terrain doesn't block LOS, and INFANTRY MODELS DO. That's a leap of logic there GW.

Yeah, that's all based on assumption you've made, nd most of the assumptions are plainly absurd, to be honest.

I'm cool with people being cynical about GW releases, it's almost always better people dissent that simply accept what's presented, and GW has given us plenty to be cynical about over the years. But there's a point between seeing stuff with a cautious eye and making up any assumption you need to make to complain about something. The first will generally make for interesting discussion while the second...

gorgon wrote:It's just odd to me that they don't go back to some hit modifiers. Everyone knows that speeders should be HARD TO HIT.

But that leads to an army balance issue. If a BS 4 army suffers a -1 to hit skimmers, 25% of their usual hits would miss the skimmers. But a BS 2 army like orks would have 50% of their usual hits missing the skimmers.

So you take the base BS of 3 and ask what would happen if you applied a -1 mod for them to hit... 33% of their shots that would normally hit would miss. Then you give everyone that same 33% chance of missing by applying a second roll after determining if you hit or not, and you end up with a 5+ cover save.

Salvation122 wrote:Via
-------------------------------
-All blast weapons now scatter.
-Defensive weapons on vehicles are now Str 4 and below.
-Skimmers Moving Fast is now a 5+ cover save. (I have heard this is the new rule for All Obscured Targets)

Blast scatter (I hope) will speed things up. Target a model, roll scatter, you get what you get. Rather than the current place and hope for more than one partial.

Hopefully the change to defensive weapons will also correspond to a change to the move/fire chart. Something like - Move <6" fire everything Move > 6", fire defensive.

I like the Skimmer nerf, but I wish it had been 4+ (like obscured). My Dark Eldar may be getting 1+ Army Transport save until a new codex comes out.

I wonder if they're thinking of doing something such that if your BS6 you ignore cover saves on a 5+ and BS7 on a 4+, BS8 3+ BS92+ or something like that?

or perhaps a reroll to hit of the above?

sebster wrote:

gorgon wrote:It's just odd to me that they don't go back to some hit modifiers. Everyone knows that speeders should be HARD TO HIT.

But that leads to an army balance issue. If a BS 4 army suffers a -1 to hit skimmers, 25% of their usual hits would miss the skimmers. But a BS 2 army like orks would have 50% of their usual hits missing the skimmers.

So you take the base BS of 3 and ask what would happen if you applied a -1 mod for them to hit... 33% of their shots that would normally hit would miss. Then you give everyone that same 33% chance of missing by applying a second roll after determining if you hit or not, and you end up with a 5+ cover save.

That actually makes a lot of sense.

I think the change to grenades is sensible too (though it conflicts a little with Codex Eldar which is still pretty recent).

Re: The Strength 4 defensive- if this happens I wonder if some weapon stats will change too. Str 4 defensive only makes sense if Heavy Bolters (the most common auxiliary weapon on Land Raiders, Predators, Chimeras, Leman Russ, Hellhounds, etc.) got reduced - maybe to S4 AP5 Heavy 3 for example.

Is it possible that the new rules actually differentiate between primary, secondary, and defensive weapons? So that primary and secondary can shoot like they can now, but defensive weapons can be shot in assault, or perhaps if the vehicle moves further than 6" (makeing pintel weapons sort of useful).

The rumour doesn't say.

Splitting vehicle weapons into three classes on the basis of strength would be illogical (Tau defensive weapons are high strength because of their superior technology, not because they are "secondary") and goes against the idea of streamlining the game.

-All models friend or foe now block line of sight. Vehicles and Monstrous Creature can be targeted over intervening infantry.
This rule simultaneously smites infantry based firepower units in favour of helping assault based horde armies. Just off the top of my head things that would benefit are: Orks (Horde + Grot Screen making a return!), Tyranid (Gaunt Horde). Things that get hit hard with the nerf bat: Static infantry heavy-weapons teams. Things like dark reapers, devestator/havocs and IG heavy weapons teams. 3rd edition - protected from shooting and assaults by meatshield. 4th edition - protected from assaults by meatshield. 5th edition - can't fire at a damned thing if you use a meatshield, assault bait otherwise. Horde shooting armies also get hit hard as you can't fire past your own guys (often IN THE SAME SQUAD). Those huge Necron phalanxes and Shoota mobs are stuck with limited firepower unless you spread them out into a line. Necron problems are somewhat offset by the fact that your stupid scarab swarms are now a fast moving LOS wall.

Oddly, you seem to suggest that making grots and gaunt hordes useful is a problem. I think most people would disagree with that (unless they just feel like ragging on the rumours)

Until you really know the LOS rules, it's hard to know exactly what will constitute blocking or not. I don't really see a huge issue with it. Some of the meatshield ideas with fleet are kind of sleazy, but until we know the rules what can we really say? Anyway, blowing away the meatshield with basic weapons so I can get LOS seems to be a tactic used in a lot of other games. It gives a reason for hills and buildings, and for spreading out. Along with blast weapons (maybe) becoming more powerful I can see the need. 2 necron warrior units spread out in a line and staggered is what we would have done in the old rules, while the heavies maneuvered behind them to get the shots they needed. I really hated all the new LOS rules they have come up with. Yeah, they were much easier and were for faster play, but it just seemed counter-intuitive at times.

I like most of these except the str 4 defensive weapons, but without knowing any context I can't say it is a horrible thing yet. Rumours of vehicles being able to split fire, and maybe how many weapons they fire could make this just a rule for bolt on and pintle style weapons.