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Tacobake wrote:ebay are a bunch of hosers.

You got that right..... ebay is horrible for sellers. And it will be interesting to see what comes of the new rules they are laying down.

Hi everyone,

By way of introduction, I'm the guy whose post (presumably on Bartertown) Rle68 read and decided to mention here. I've been a member of Bartertown, LordsotheBattlefield, CoolMiniOrNot, ClassicBattletech.com and eBay (the latter two under the name "the_knave") for many years. Morlock Bloodletter and Nuwisha asked me about this thread (ie "Gearhead, is that you?") so I thought I'd best come try to help out with the discussion.

First of all, Bartertown friggin' rocks, and I do not endorse anything negative Rle68 has said about it. It doesn't even fit into this conversation.

Second of all, I do not work for WargamesMarket.com. I do, however, desire very strongly for it to succeed because I'm sick of eBay putting the screws to its sellers. Some people over at CMON accused me of being a mole because I've taken the time to do some math and construct my arguments, but I started doing the math since eBay announced its latest fee changes and came up with some pretty compelling reasons to leave, which is why I went LOOKING for someplace else. Plus I have the day off and time to write. Hopefully, I'll be able to at least present a case that will make you take a look.

-eBay's getting more expensive for the little guys. I'm basing everything on a hypothetical item that is given a basic listing at and sells for $9.99 (happens all the time.) With eBay's new fee schedule, you save $.05 in listing it, but then pay an extra $.35 in increased Final Value Fees. I'll leave it to you to decide whether "free gallery" is worth it.

Wargames Market's fees are listed here: http://www.wargamesmarket.com/sitefees.php That same $9.99 item would cost you absolutely NOTHING, given the same basic listing.

-Ease of use: My personal experience has been that WGM is much faster and simpler to use than eBay. You can set up a lot of standard settings to be automatically entered in each listing (like terms and conditions, etc,) Once you get the hang of it (didn't take me long,) it's like falling off a log. Again, for me.

What's more, there are some real fire-and-forget options. Listings can last from 3 days to 2 months, with the option of automatically relisting it for up to 10 times, FOR FREE, if it doesn't sell (or even if it does and you have more of the same.) This means that you can list a $9.99 item with Buy-it-now and have it run up to 20 MONTHS, and all it will cost you is the $.02 BIN fee.

-eBay's policies are getting VERY dracoinian. I almost left when they implemented the "If you accept Paypal, you must accept ALL forms of it." That meant upgrading to a business/premier account. Last I recall, that's a 2.9% + $.35 fee for every payment received. That's an additional $.64 on your 9.99 item, which means that eBay has now bled a bit over 13% of your GROSS sales. Some people, like me, simply stopped taking PayPal. Unfortunately, new and less-than-100-feedback sellers are now being FORCED to take it.

Furthermore, only power sellers are getting any kind of breaks. They get a 3% FVF rebate (oddly enough, the same amount by which FVFs have just been increased) for good performance on Detailed Feedback Ratings. Noone else gets this "break". Not only that, but this reduction in listing fees, which eBay hailed as a landmark acheivement in their original announcement of all this, is only of any benefit to the big guys. $.05 per item? You have to list 200 items just to save $10!

-Now, the main arguments against using WGM seem to be few sellers and few buyers. The thing is not to get people to jump ship completely and immediately (though if everyone did at once, wouldn't that be effective?) but rather coax people away. If you're a seller, it takes VERY little effort to start a side operation at WGM while continuing to sell on eBay, but you can refer your eBay clients to WGM as you go along, building up the buyer base over there. It would even be possible to offer them discounts for buying at WGM and still make more: remember that 13% cut eBay and PayPal took out of your $9.99 sale?

As for buyers who complain that there's nothing for sale- that's not an insurmountable obstacle! After all, what does it cost you to stop by and look now and then anyway? Not only that, you can ask your favorite sellers to start posting there, and tell them about how they can benefit IF everyone's willing to give it a try. There is practically no risk or effort required from ANYONE involved. Remember too that even eBay was small and relatively unknown at one time. But people gave it a chance, stuck with it, told other people, and it grew. Why not give another site the same consideration?

-Some criticize WGM or its proponents of trying to get business. Even if that were the case, and they were just spamming for bucks, why should that be a problem if they are actually offering a viable service? Everyone's out to make a buck or two, and WGM's offering a way for you to pay them LESS for a service you're already using elsewhere.

-Last of all (and this is why I'm taking the time and effort to write all this,) is that I honestly believe that WE, the wargamers, hobby painters, terrain makers, roleplayers, book readers, PC/console gamers, card collectors, and mini sculptors (and anyone else I failed to mention) can only gain from supporting an alternate site like WGM. They're gamers themselves, and they started the site as a place where hobbyists can sell their wares in a place friendly to their interests and which doesn't squeeze like a python every time you breathe out. I see this as a chance for gamers and hobbyists to do something for OURSELVES. And that's the whole point! eBay probably couldn't care less whether we live or die as a whole, so we're the ones that need to look out for us. And even if they did care, a healthy competing site simply means that both sites need to make sure to treat us right.

Bottom line: give it a try; it doesn't have to be an immediate and complete move-over. Get your friends, associates, and favourite sellers to come with you. STICK WITH IT for a while, and see if it doesn't grow!

And if you're still reading this, my heartfelt thanks for taking the time!

[edited for spelling]

adamsouza wrote:A Seller can have UNLIMITED negative feedbacks with NO consequence.

This is in fact incorrect.

More than 5% negative feedback over the course of a month gets your selling account suspended until you get your rating back up again.

True, the total number of negs you can have is uncapped... but the overall percentage of them is not. And every seller sooner or later gets a few negs, whether they're deserved or not.

A buyer on the other hand can only ever have 2 negativ efeedback and thier account is closed if they get a third, over the ENTIRE life of the account.

This is also incorrect.

A buyer can accumulate as many negs as they want without it having any effect on their account whatsoever. The only possible problem a buyer has from having negs is that some sellers block people with a total feedback score of less than 0 from bidding... so if your negs outweigh your positives, you start running out of items to bid on.

You're possibly getting confused with Unpaid Item Strikes... of which you can indeed have only 3 and you're out. Which is exactly how it should be. In fact, I'd prefer to see it dropped to 1 for new accounts, to cut down on the number of nuisance bidders setting up accounts just to play silly buggers.


If your account was closed, it wasn't because of feedback.

* Shady dealers won't leave you any feedback after you've payed for an item, so they have the oppurtunity to slander you if you leave them a negative feedback.

Some sellers simply hold back on leaving feedback until you notify them that you have received the item and all is well... as that's the point when the transaction is actually completed. So holding feedback doesn't automatically make someone a 'shady dealer'

Won't be an issue shortly anyway, since sellers will no longer be able to leave negative feedback for buyers under the new policies coming in.

Rle68 wrote:bartertown is about trading not selling

the powers that run bartertown have a nasty habit of making people buy advertising they deem are running businesses.

I've had very good success on Btown both trading (and selling / buying). Experience-wise, I'm happier with Btown, and they are my preferred site. I've sold less than I've traded, that's for sure.

I don't know anything about any advertising requirement.

But in terms of sheer shadiness, eBay / Paypal takes the cake.

http://www.bartertown.com/trading/viewtopic.php?t=45470

BartertownRules wrote:
Rule #14: If you are a business, you must advertise with us.
This includes painters, ebay stores, online stores, physical stores, and any permutation I missed wherein you operate any kind of for-profit entity and take money for goods or services. If you're not sure, contact me and we'll sort something out.
Advertisers help support Bartertown and keep it free for the users here. We offer a good deal with very impressive site statistics, not to mention the additional exposure you get by having 3,000+ unique visitors a day seeing your ad! (these are real people, not robots)
Now for the heavy part: If you are operating a business, and you're doing business here without our consent, we will ask you to advertise. If you decline, we respectfully request you cease *all* activities on the site and leave.

Almost everyone will accept cash, that doesn't make them a store.

Painters are looking for work.
If your looking for work your probably a buissiness, even if you don't have a fancy webiste, or fancy yourself a buissiness.

It's keep the number of grots offering to paint figs in exchange for figures or cash to a minimum by weeding out those who aren't serious about it.

As it is, pretty much every week there is some fresh faced new user posting in the FOR HIRE PAINTERS WANTED section, with no feedback, who wants you to not only trust him with your $500 army, but wants you to pay him $1000 to paint it

As for the OP, your friend could have appealed the decision. If he had no website, and no previous history of painting models for cash, and didn't post that he was willing to do so on the site, they would have let it go.

adamsouza wrote:http://www.bartertown.com/trading/viewtopic.php?t=45470

BartertownRules wrote:
Rule #14: If you are a business, you must advertise with us.
This includes painters, ebay stores, online stores, physical stores, and any permutation I missed wherein you operate any kind of for-profit entity and take money for goods or services. If you're not sure, contact me and we'll sort something out.
Advertisers help support Bartertown and keep it free for the users here. We offer a good deal with very impressive site statistics, not to mention the additional exposure you get by having 3,000+ unique visitors a day seeing your ad! (these are real people, not robots)
Now for the heavy part: If you are operating a business, and you're doing business here without our consent, we will ask you to advertise. If you decline, we respectfully request you cease *all* activities on the site and leave.

Almost everyone will accept cash, that doesn't make them a store.

Painters are looking for work.
If your looking for work your probably a buissiness, even if you don't have a fancy webiste, or fancy yourself a buissiness.

It's keep the number of grots offering to paint figs in exchange for figures or cash to a minimum by weeding out those who aren't serious about it.

As it is, pretty much every week there is some fresh faced new user posting in the FOR HIRE PAINTERS WANTED section, with no feedback, who wants you to not only trust him with your $500 army, but wants you to pay him $1000 to paint it

As for the OP, your friend could have appealed the decision. If he had no website, and no previous history of painting models for cash, and didn't post that he was willing to do so on the site, they would have let it go.

thats the point
they were emailed after by the buyer who then emailed btown
in their infinite wisdom issued him an ultimatum... he said to hell with them and i understand where he is coming from

now i never said btown was a dump or anything like that but the idea behind them is trading. Yes selling does happen but its not the norm nor is an auction site like i already explained in english maybe i should have quoted it in all languages who knows

and if i have to explain why wargamesmarket is an attractive alternative to ebay then maybe this topic is above your paygrade

Anyone that knows how ebay operates would understand where i was coming from on this idea

I love how i post an op and then i get hammered for even attempting to go against the accepted norms... sheesh

some people agree some wont .. you could have the facts hit them in the head like a falling brick and it wouldnt make a difference... oh well

Rle68 wrote:
blah blah blah

I highly suggest you stop posting in your "usual" fashion if you wish to promote www.wargamesmarket.com. From reading Gearhead's post, it actually sounds like an interesting alternative. Notice I said from reading Gearhead's post, not yours. Your posts are turning into mere attacks on the members of Dakka, and it's rather annoying. Your posting behavior dictates you're under the age of 18, but your vocabulary says otherwise. Either way, grow up.

Thanks for your post Gearhead, it was a very interesting read and opened my eyes to more than a few things ^^

Sorry but i have to defend Ebay, both from a buyers and sellers point of veiw Ebay and Paypal are fantastic.Yes i will be the first to admit they are expensive in terms of fee's but considering how easy it is to get started selling and buying and pay and get paid its worth it.I have sold thousands of items through ebay and bought many wargame items i never thought i could own.I have had a few issues with some buyers and i have been ripped off a couple of times too ,but on the whole i think its great.

Sellers are feeling the pinch at the moment on ebay because GW has flooded the market with masses of cheap plastics because of appocalypse so the demand for plastic kits (like rhinos) has dropped to almost zero for certtain things .
Infact its quite a good time to hit the ebay 40K/Warhammer lists at the moment ,its the end of the month so no one has any cash and ebay is full of cheap auctions at the moment, i have picked up some nice bargains so far this week !Plus Ebay and pay pal have improved their customer service vastly over the last 12 months and continue to do so here in the UK.

BUT!

Gearhead has made some very valid points about wargamesmarket and i for one would love to see a viable alternative to ebay for wargamers ,but so many alternatives to ebay have come and gone, sadly i cant see it ever making any headway against the ebay giant.

Bartertown is ok if you live in the USA, but i find that its a bit lacking when you live in the UK or Europe,Plus i find people dont tend to want to part with "cash $$$ money" on bartertown, they tend to want to "trade" which amounts to someone offering you a a badly painted dark eldar army for new on the sprue pre-release models .

Maybe the focus shouldnt be why people need a viable alternative to ebay and more why people need ebay as an alternative to GW.

kitsandbits wrote:Bartertown is ok if you live in the USA, but i find that its a bit lacking when you live in the UK or Europe,Plus i find people dont tend to want to part with "cash $$$ money" on bartertown, they tend to want to "trade" which amounts to someone offering you a a badly painted dark eldar army for new on the sprue pre-release models .

You know, you're fairly accurate re: non-US traders.
Tthere is absolutely NO arguing the point. The vast majority of BTowners are in the US. Make it "North America," essientially adding the Canadians, and the majority rises even further.
That isn't the problem, however. the problem is that many US traders (myself included), either refuse to do trades out of the country or are willing to do so under certain circumstances only (that'd be me).
That, effectively, removes a large portion of traders that, say, someone in Norway can trade with. It really does drop the level of attractiveness for some people.
It's not the "foreign" traders fault. Fact is, the USPS and Canadian postal service, and every other country I've traded with's Postal Service do not work well together for a situation like that. The delay in receiving packages from & sending them to the other countries gets so tiring that we decide it isn't even worth it.


Now, re: your "trade" example... Those types crack me up the most. I mean, I do it... If I'm tradeing, regardless of what, I usually will only trade for "on sprue" minis. Of course, I value my assembled/whatever models at a lower amount in the context of the trade... but there are plenty who don't.
I get a kick out of those the most.
"Have: 24 Eldar Guardians, painted to table-top standard (note to readers, "Table-Top Standard" = BADLY painted). Want: Vostroyans of equal retail value."


What the...? Equal value? Whatever!

You're right, though. BTown is primarily a trade site, though you do get plenty of people willing to sell.

Many times, I've offered someone cash only to be turned down because they want trade... Then, I go to Chaosorc's store & price out something they want (usually less than my cash offer) and offer that to them, only to have them accept.
:shrug:
I know *I* will never understand that.


Eric

Rle68, you need to discern the difference between people disagreeing with your opinion and attacking you for nonconformist behavior.

You might also want to stop slinging insults at the people disagreeing with you, as it's definitely not helping your argument in the least.

Your arguments to date break down to the following:
1.) Wargamer Market is an attractive alternative to Ebay because it's not Ebay.
2.) Bartertown is the Evil because your friend, not even you, received an email asking him to advertise with them if he was going to run a painting buissiness there
3.) Everyone who disagrees with you is a conformist poo poo head that is oppressing your individuality

None of these are particualry strong arguments, but I will be happy to continue to debate with you, as it seems you will somehow re-iterate all of these posts in your reply as if that will somehow make them any better arguments the next time around, and I will bored at work and will delight in having something to do as I laugh maniacally reading it.

I've been doing a little business on B-town for the first time in a long while, and I have to say it's gotten a bit better. The key is to list what you have, in clear detail, and have a short concise list of what you want in return. Ads like: I have a NIB marine army, I want another army" will attract some wacky offers. On the other hand, listing every kit, it's condition, and what you want in trade or cash will really speed up a trade.

Rle68 wrote:

and if i have to explain why wargamesmarket is an attractive alternative to ebay then maybe this topic is above your paygrade

Anyone that knows how ebay operates would understand where i was coming from on this idea

I love how i post an op and then i get hammered for even attempting to go against the accepted norms... sheesh

some people agree some wont .. you could have the facts hit them in the head like a falling brick and it wouldnt make a difference... oh well

Luckily Gearhead came along and summed up in one post what you still haven't managed to do in nearly a dozen posts. However, what you have done in those dozen or so posts is give us a good idea what you are about. In a summation, Gearhead is a better spokesman for the Alternative to Ebay and you are not. You would do best to keep from shooting your mouth off any more, as you have completely destroyed your own credibility and you are starting to kill the credibility of anything you speak about. NUF SAID>

kitsandbits wrote:Sorry but i have to defend Ebay, both from a buyers and sellers point of veiw Ebay and Paypal are fantastic. ... I have had a few issues with some buyers and i have been ripped off a couple of times too ,but on the whole i think its great.

Bartertown is ok if you live in the USA, but i find that its a bit lacking when you live in the UK or Europe,Plus i find people dont tend to want to part with "cash $$$ money" on bartertown, they tend to want to "trade" which amounts to someone offering you a a badly painted dark eldar army for new on the sprue pre-release models .

Being ripped off a couple of times is not acceptable, and is why I avoid eBay where possible, and refuse to use PayPal. Fool me once, OK. Fool me twice, never.

Bartertown is simply a matchmaking service. If you can't take responsiblity to ensure a fair trade, that's your problem.

Agreed wth two heads talking. Not saying Rle68 is wrong in basic premise of wargamesmarket being a great place to visit (it sounds like the greatness is, however, limited to it's methodology as of yet and not extending to it's selection), but Rle8 (and pleny of others, myself included) could take lessons from gearhead. He convinced me to at last go look at the site seriously, which is the start, isn't it?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Being ripped off a couple of times is not acceptable, and is why I avoid eBay where possible, and refuse to use PayPal. Fool me once, OK. Fool me twice, never.

In a perfect world, I might agree with you. Unfortunately, this is Earth.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Being ripped off a couple of times is not acceptable, and is why I avoid eBay where possible, and refuse to use PayPal.

The procedures that eBay and Paypal have in place to handle things going wrong work the vast majority of the time... when people actually follow them (which, from my experience, doesn't happen anywhere near all the time).

For the rest, there's nothing unique to eBay that's not potentially going to happen on any online service that allows people to just sign up and sell or trade.

insaniak wrote:The procedures that eBay and Paypal have in place to handle things going wrong work the vast majority of the time... when people actually follow them (which, from my experience, doesn't happen anywhere near all the time).

Puh-lease.

Ebay sends you to Paypal. Paypal doesn't do squat.

The eBay / Paypal timeline is designed to force the buyer to pay their credit card before dispute resolution kicks in, making it hard to reverse payment for non-delivery. It is also designed to force the seller to pay Final Value Fees and a minimum of 3% to Paypal regardless of how the buyer behaves post sale. It's really an amazing scheme that screws everybody buy eBay / Paypal.

The way to deal with a bad seller is to chargeback via your credit card company or bank, who will issue a chargeback to Paypal, who will debit the seller's account.

And as a result, as a seller, the only way to do business is via cash instruments (i.e Western Union / Money Order), which eBay abhors because they don't collect any margin on them.

insaniak wrote:For the rest, there's nothing unique to eBay that's not potentially going to happen on any online service that allows people to just sign up and sell or trade.

Funny you should make such a claim.

As of now, I have roughly the same number of Ebay transactions vs non-Ebay (B-town, Yahoo, Usenet, boards) transactions.

The *only* place I've had ever problems is on Ebay, tied to Paypal. So from my perspective, Ebay *is* unique in that it's the only online service to have problems.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The way to deal with a bad seller is to chargeback via your credit card company or bank, who will issue a chargeback to Paypal, who will debit the seller's account.

Assuming that the problem is a bad seller in the first place.

The majority of the time, that's not actually the problem... it's usually something that can be resolved with a little communication. I've had one chargeback against me in my time selling on eBay. No contact from the buyer to say they hadn't received the item so I could actually do something about it, just straight to a chargeback. Paypal refunded the money (at their own expense, didn't cost me a cent) ... and the item arrived a week later... which I could have told the buyer was well within the normal delivery time if they had bothered to ask first.

Communication will resolve the vast majority of problems.

Yes, there are dodgy sellers out there. But they're not unique to eBay, and they're a very small minority.

If the KFC at your local mall charges you for 3 pieces of chicken, but only gives you 2, do you stop shopping at that mall?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

kitsandbits wrote:Sorry but i have to defend Ebay, both from a buyers and sellers point of veiw Ebay and Paypal are fantastic. ... I have had a few issues with some buyers and i have been ripped off a couple of times too ,but on the whole i think its great.

Bartertown is ok if you live in the USA, but i find that its a bit lacking when you live in the UK or Europe,Plus i find people dont tend to want to part with "cash $$$ money" on bartertown, they tend to want to "trade" which amounts to someone offering you a a badly painted dark eldar army for new on the sprue pre-release models .

Being ripped off a couple of times is not acceptable, and is why I avoid eBay where possible, and refuse to use PayPal. Fool me once, OK. Fool me twice, never.

Bartertown is simply a matchmaking service. If you can't take responsiblity to ensure a fair trade, that's your problem.

Lol i have been ripped off a total of 3 times in 3 years of buying and selling , time one ,i bought some printable decal paper , when it arrived it was warped because the seller had not protected it properly , didnt get refund as i had to return the item recorded delivery which cost more than i paid .Second time i bought an item for a friend ,but when it arrived it was a bit more shabby than they had described in the auction , i got my money back . Lastly i won an auction for a large box full of sprues and bits , but the seller sent me an empty box ,they sent it recorded delivery so i couldnt claim it hadnt arrived ,reported them to pay pal ,pay pal told me to goto the police , which i did but missed the deadline to respond because you only have seven days to send pay pal the police report.Lost £60 on that one but i do know were they live !

But looking at this another way i won an auction for £35 plus p&p for a ork army which had the following
77 orc boys mainly unpainted
3 old trucks
7 bikes
metal dread unpainted
ghazkull unpainted
warboss
runt herd and 12 runts
hundreds of ork boy bits
12 storm boys
12 stick bommers
1 forgeworld fighta bommer new still in box
1 krokgar on carnosaur
1 lord croak
10 metal skinks
1 metal predator conversion kits
various metal marines

now tell me that ebay doesnt have a positive side ?

I'm not advocating for Ebay, but in the literally thousands of transactions I've had on Ebay I've been burned a total of three times.

In all fairness, Paypal was absolutely useless in resolving any of those.

It's a failure rate below .1% for me. I was mad as hell when each happened, but I've always directed that anger at the dealer who screwed me and not Ebay/Paypal.

In all fairness, ebay-pal is in business to take your money, and that of the person on the other end of the auction. Period. The service they offer is merely a mechanism to entice you to give them money. When dealing with ebay, you are doing nothing more than playing a game. Read the rules, know the rules, because the test on the rules comes with each transaction. You get screwed, the one thing you shouldn't be is suprised that it happened, because we all know that there are people out there looking to take you money. If you do not take propr precautions, someone is going to part you from your cash at some point. Not that I believe that people are inherently evil, or that ebay-pal is some kind of evil empire, but I DO believe that there are people using their system looking to enrich themselves by taking the ebay-pal Rules of Engageemnt and rules-lawyering them until they find loop-holes. They are out there. The anonymity of the net merely makes them more bold, because now they can coax you out of your ducats from the other side of the earth while operating under a mantle of some reputability (that mntle being ebay-pals reputation and methods for client protection, such as they may be).

No one likes getting the shaft, it's not why we do business. However, you have to accept the possibility that someone will outmaneuver you. If someone decides they want your cash, they'll get it depending on how far they are willing to go. It isup to us to perform due diligence on our own behalf in an effort to stop the bleeding. No one else is as motivated.

I get mad when it happens, I'm not sayiong you should take your screwing and wander off with a size 14 orfice without a word. I'm just saying that if you are suprised by it, you've lost the plot of what goes on.

All that being said, I've had great transactions. The vast majoity of them have been. I'll be intersted in trying some different venues in the future.

To sum up, go in armed with knowledge, and look for how you can get had. You know the sharks are out there, do your best to avoid them when you swim.

What irks me the most about eBay is how obvious it's become that they really don't care what happens to me, after all the time I've been with them.

BUT, now that I've been at WargamesMarket for a little while, I have some actual numbers to report:

Items sold: 13
Total (without shipping): $128.97
Cost of listings (assuming basic listings, with Buy It Now): $0.86
How much WGM's cost so far, including the $2.50 Identity Verification: $3.36
Percentage of gross sales: 2.6%
How much these would have cost me on eBay, assuming basic listings withOUT Buy It Now: $16.69
Percentage of gross sales: 12.9%
How much if I'd been a new seller compelled to take PayPal: $24.30
Percentage of gross sales: 18.9%

Sooo, WGM's been working so far, and has cost me as little as 1/7th what the same activity would have cost me on eBay. If you're selling stuff, GIVE IT A TRY!!!

Wowm nice numbers. I'm not a seller, but I'll definitely be checking out the site when I'm buying. Thanks Gearhead