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These look simply amazing. I would say some of you painting is beyond eavy metal quality. I really like the 'mood' and use of the empire bits on all the models. My favorite has got to be the command tank. Such an awesome conversion. Great job!

Strangely enough, the command tank is the model I hate in the army. It's well excecuted, but it just looks wrong to me.

Having thought about it, I don't like it in that it looks like it's imbalanced. It's a tall tank, and it's narrow in relationship to the height, and it looks like all the weight would be to the rear (turrent and engine being placed there). So, if it were to go over an obstacle, it looks as though it would likely tip over onto it's back, or if running on a slight enbankment, that it might tip onto it's side.

The proportions just look.... "off".

Well modeled, and well painted. But... "off".

A truly stunning army. It would be a pleasure to get stomped by these little works of art.

Let me say off the bat that your army is well painted. The highlights, shading, and everything is all done to a standard that I am incapable of.

In all, I find the flags to be disturbing. I would not have chosen to represent my figures in such a manner, and speaking as someone who is currently working on an Armored Company, it is doubtful that I would have even considered a World War II theme to begin with.

This is not to say that you can't tastefully represent a unit using proper color schemes, without any flamboyance and in the proper context, but I see neither. This is Warhammer 40,000 - there are are not any Nazis or Soviets (regardless of what some may say about the organization or style of the IG, they are not Soviet in design) in the WH40K universe, and bringing something like this paint scheme in as an out-of-context reference that glorifies a genocidal regime by painting Aryans in tanks with German iconography is both tasteless and offensive.

World War II was a horrific conflict that cost millions of lives, half of which were civilians, of which many were butchered in accordance with the Final Solution. Many people alive today still live with memories of that time, whereas someone fielding a Mongolian army is at most going to be offending someone who's been dead for the better part of a millennium.

Again, your models are painted well. The theme, however, is too reminiscent and glorifying of a regime that killed millions only 60 years ago. The thoughts your army brings to people is of events too fresh in history's mind, and all that succeeds in doing is offending.

CK

Great army. Awesome paintjobs, good conversions.

....poor reveiws. Some of you people need to lighten up rather than LOOKING for things that might offend you so that you can complain about them....get bent.

Um, there are plenty of "countries" represented in the IG. Praetorians (colonial british), valhallans (soviets), mordians (germans), cadians (US), Catachans (Vietnam US)... do I need to continue?

Who was that directed at, KiMonarrez?

CK

You.

I just think it's a cop out for people to say "40k has no room for historical stereotypes" when it's so plainly obvious that it's built in already.

The Imperium is a hierarchical, fascist, superstitious, stagnant, zealous, dictatorship driven by madmen. It's definitely a totalitarian government lead under religious guise so that they may exterminate all whom they feel are unworthy.

truth of the matter is that if you loom long and hard enough at many post WWII games, movies, and sci-fi stories you will see the Nazis there too. just because you see the influence there doesn't mean it's really there or that it's pro nazi propaganda. We all make unconscious links to things in the real world when we look at armies, make army themes and fluff whether you want to admit it or not.

Love the paint jobs and crazy freehand done on these models. The flags and dozers are probably my favorite part, so much detail put into those parts its astounding. Keep up the good work.

As to those who think 40k, in other words GW, doesn't get its ideas from the real world you are sorely mistaken. Look at WFB even, the map for the fricken world is a carbon copy of earth with a few extras thrown in and the races in 40k and WFB both pull their art/background/feel right from past civilizations and time periods on earth. So lighten up and shove off with all the comments about this army not fitting somewhere in the imperiums millions of planets whose peoples are said to spread from stone age to advanced tech and everything in between. I think this is an awesome army direction and a well executed theme that fits right into the game.

Can't wait to see those thunderbolts. I, myself have just finished my Ultramarines Eagle strike fighter and I'm already bummed out at how much better your flyers are going to look than mine if you keep up the quality that you have demonstrated in the rest of your army. But hey happens.

@ GMMStudios:
if I may ask, what exactly inspired you to use this iconography?

This is a fantastic army, my only criticism is that the heavy bolter barrels should be drilled out.


The iconography is great.

This is a very nice force. I like the German theme, and the different eras of German History mix well. Makes me think of Baron Munchousen.

Yes, very good conversions. If I were to start another 40k force, I would be forced to put as much effort as you into the force.

odinsgrandson wrote:This is a very nice force. I like the German theme, and the different eras of German History mix well. Makes me think of Baron Munchousen.

Yes, very good conversions. If I were to start another 40k force, I would be forced to put as much effort as you into the force.

Great movie. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Dr. Parnassus.

Anyway, spectacular army. Apart from certain obvious influences, I can understand and respect them. As an armed force, the german military in WW II are very rich in imagery, and let's not confuse it for political reasons with melodramatic speeches. Though I'm sure as hell most people will have an issue with it, which is kind of sad as military stereotypes are common across the whole of Warhammer but due to it's richness in elements the german military is the most frowned upon.

Of course, most of the iconography derives from the roman legions - the eagle, the standards, etc - though I fear that lack of culture may take a certain toll on people's views.

Once again, splendid army, a real treat to the eye and an excellent mixture of models to attain a great feel.

Now, maybe you could get some more close-ups?

These tanks look absolutely stunning. The amount of detail and freehand work is truly astounding. I won't be involved in the other debate going on. I just want to say that this is fantastic stuff.

Please share how you did your weathering effects.

Yes, the art is nice.

Too bad it's *all* selected to be based on white power / neo-Nazi / Nazi hate.

Assuming the OP ever comes back, I would be ever so slightly amused to see an explanation of *why* he chose this theme, and the specific elements he based it on, knowing what they represent individually and collectively.

If not, good riddance.

KiMonarrez wrote:You.

I just think it's a cop out for people to say "40k has no room for historical stereotypes" when it's so plainly obvious that it's built in already.

Yes, some historical stereotypes are part of the 40K universe. That still does not justify that fact that these models have several undeniably close similarities to Nazi forces from World War II. No one gets pissed when White Scars are fielded because the stereotypes they represent aren't so painfully present in people's minds. Last I checked, there are many millions still alive from the World War II era. Such is not the case for the Mongol Empire.

Look, I'm not trying to cop out by making sweeping generalizations. I just think that GMM would have been much better off just not giving any references in this manner to a regime that, like the Imperium, may have been totalitarian, facistic, and cruel, but was without a doubt REAL. That is one claim the Imperium, despite its horrid references, may never lay claim to. That's what it boils down to - I simply don't like the reference as I perceive it, and that is the opinion I will maintain.

CK

you know what, i was at first putting down this army and im sorry, now the more i look at it the more i like it, the paint job is some of the greatest ive ever seen, hell im even going to coppy the 'hangman' tank in my army

I think they look amazing. Very well done.

I wouldnt want to play on the same table though.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Yes, the art is nice.

Too bad it's *all* selected to be based on white power / neo-Nazi / Nazi hate.

Assuming the OP ever comes back, I would be ever so slightly amused to see an explanation of *why* he chose this theme, and the specific elements he based it on, knowing what they represent individually and collectively.

If not, good riddance.

Why not throw a few more adjectives to see if it sticks?

He chose it probably because he felt that the german armies of WWII are an inspiring sight. I think the first page is clear on the fact that he doesn't support the Nazi theme, so cut being a drama queen. The military was well organized, disciplined, had great commanders and aces, and their tank divisions' were impressive to say the least.

I find it amusing to see people who's only contact with WWII is Ben Affleck and Josh Hartnett in the same movie to be the most scandalized.
So, Vietnam - sorry, Catachan - Jungle Fighters are okay? With Napalm - sorry again, Heavy - Flamers?

Let's protest, because Exterminatus could remind the Japanese of the A-Bomb. And millions of other stuff.
Don't get me wrong, it's just that I've never seen anyone protest because Tamiya or Revell have, in their military range of miniatures, models of germans from WWII. Let's go out and call them nazis? Or the Goffs, the famed ork clan, who had german helmets in the iconography?

The only thing I have against the paint scheme is the fact that he used the Marvel Thor

Destrado wrote:

I find it amusing to see people who's only contact with WWII is Ben Affleck and Josh Hartnett in the same movie to be the most scandalized.
So, Vietnam - sorry, Catachan - Jungle Fighters are okay? With Napalm - sorry again, Heavy - Flamers?

Let's protest, because Exterminatus could remind the Japanese of the A-Bomb. And millions of other stuff.

Why not throw in a couple more non relevant examples for comparison?

Viet Nam
The motivation behind Viet Nam was a fear of domino effect, the people of Viet Nam weren't specifically targeted, singled out and destroyed apart from isolated instances of individual officers going over the top (Mai Lai). If you want to refer to strategic bombing then that drags up a whole fundamental element of how you fight wars.

Japan
Oh damn I forgot that targetting a population that is completely integrated in the war effort in terms of production and man power = genocide silly me

Seriously, go read up on the term genocide, the Nazis had an INDUSTRIALISED SYSTEM OF DESTRUCTION created for the pure purpose of eradicating several defined races. The Americans never had anything comporable to the final solution of Liebensrelm. Thier, strategies, whilst morally questionable, did not possess the same malevolence and hatred about them.

The nazis were a bunch of gimps and idolising them is just sad.

and as we've already gone over in this thread historic modeling is not comporable to this, you're recreating something out of history, not deliberately using hateful imagery to add 'coolness' to soemthing which has nothing to do with said imagery.

I've been giving this army a lot of thought. While it is well painted, the individual did make some poor choices (the slightly 'off' iron cross on the id flag gave me a double-take). There are things he could have done to make it clear that he was not interested in offending (I once suggested to Ed Maule that he use the symbol from Charlie Chaplain's "The Little Dictator", for example).

Am I offended by the army? Not per se, but it does make me a little queasy. If I were playing against this army I'd have some serious questions for the player, and wonder how he'd look at me.

I've never liked historically based armies, especially based on the 'bad guys', and I'm increasingly against them in general, as I think it encourages moral equivalence to the combatants of various wars. You already see it in many of the comments here: 'well, they all killed people and waged war and ate babies, so what's the big deal?'

(I remember watching a discussion on WIP about an individual doing an army based on the IDF. There were quite a few posters with German-themed armies who couldn't understand why someone would make an army based on such a racist outfit!)

I just don't see how it could be seen as anything other than being supportive and enthusiastic of the original. You may rationalize any way you like, but if it looks like a duck...

This is a sci-fantasy game. If I wanted to play historicals, I'd play historicals.

I agree, idolizing Nazis is stupid and sad. None-the-less, they where a military force to be reckoned with, and that's what's in question.

Read up on the term genocide? What would you know about it? Like America financing Israel, like the weapons the Russians sold to the middle east?

The people of Vietnam weren't specifically targeted? You've named the political reasons, go see the stuff they did there and come back with that same attitude. Go see what happened to villages full of children and women.

Japan was targeted fairly, they attacked the Americans (who claim to be heroes but only got in this for economical reasons), and two of their cities were completely. Totally. Razed. Hiroshima's Little Boy killed around 140k, the Nagasaki one 75k's, not counting the injured and the later diseased.

Non relevant examples is if they were politically compared, not military. What isn't shocking to you could be to someone who has actually been in the 'nam war.

Let's not make a storm in a glass of water with this.

Grignard wrote:

I don't understand how the efficiency of killing has anything to do with the morality. From another point of view, and I am not necessarily criticizing anyone at all here, an atomic bomb is a very efficient way of killing people to achieve your ends. If you're going to kill someone just because you want them gone/to achieve an objective, you're going to use the most efficient way possible, that only makes sense ( that is, subtracting the moral dimension of it).

Also, he has never said he idolizes Nazi's.

Sigh we've already gone through this - by transferring the imagery to a new format its idolising it by saying "hey this rules, I'm going to use it for other things!"

its not the efficiency , its the motivation behind it. Civilians die in wars, its the sad truth, and now they die even mroe frequently given the berth of technology.

The Americans were never out to exterminate either the Japanese, the Germans or the Vietnamese. Quite the opposite in the case of the former two, they pretty much instantly started rebuilding the countries.

Guys after some complaints I've cleaned up about 10 OT posts.

Please don't get sidetracked into the justification for the destrction of industry in war and other such stuff...

There is a perfectly good Off Topic forum for that sort of posting....

Alright, I didnt realize I was doing anything wrong there, I was responding to the questions. True, it had nothing to do with the models.

Off topic material, sorry.

Very awesome man! Really enjoyed the pics. I love the historical feel to it too. By far the best painted I have seen.
Oh and for anyone else that is getting their panties in a bunch... it's just a game!
And definitley not inappropriate!
Thank-you for the pics

Bastirous666 wrote:The Imperium is a hierarchical, fascist, superstitious, stagnant, zealous, dictatorship driven by madmen. It's definitely a totalitarian government lead under religious guise so that they may exterminate all whom they feel are unworthy.

truth of the matter is that if you loom long and hard enough at many post WWII games, movies, and sci-fi stories you will see the Nazis there too. just because you see the influence there doesn't mean it's really there or that it's pro nazi propaganda. We all make unconscious links to things in the real world when we look at armies, make army themes and fluff whether you want to admit it or not.

Quoted for Truth. The Imperium has done far worse than Nazis and if people are really really offended by the German symbolism that is mixed in with Bolshevik artistry, then why isint anyone complaining about every German player in Flames of War?


back to topic, wow those tanks look seriously off the hook awesomeness. That is some nice freehand on all the dozer blades.

To answer your FoW question thehod check out - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209982.page -

The more I look at this army the more I have to admit that this is probably the best detail painting I've ever seen. Unfortunately I don't think the OP is ever going to come back, but if you do can you answer one question. Do you do commision work?