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Sure you can vs most Nids.

I was however referring to the Orks. How RB will 'block' lootas for more than 1 turn is beyond me.

Maybe because once they are destroyed you still can't see through them?

Just a guess.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

That's not true, Ozy.

Smoked Rhinos, sure.

Pen'd rhinos, no.

It doesn't say 'put a rhino bus' here on every result, ya know.

Besides, most rhino walls depend on getting first turn.

Not really a viable tactic if you need first turn for it to work.

Stelek it is easy and I see you know how to make a vehicle wall. Start with your transports behind cover then move them out and pop the smoke launchers. The enemy shoots them and the best they can do is turn them into wrecks.

G

Course man.

Problems are:

Are you going through diff?

Is your terrain on the edge of your deployment zone so you can move up easy?

Or are you 6-8" back hiding?

Do you deploy in the open 12" in so you can 'wall up' and risk being destroyed first turn?

Do you play opponents that allow you to wall them up with smoked rhinos?

Is there a reason to fire at a 50 point model on turn 1 or 2, so you cannot fire on turns 3-6 with your pricey shooting unit?

I think it's a great tactic versus trigger happy noobs, but against experienced opponents it should rarely (if ever) work. That's all I'm getting at.

I greatly disagree stelek. The Rhino wall is the most under appreciated tactic in 4th.

My counter to your statement is that only a noob would let his rhino wall be countered by such a trivial tactic. Plus only a pen on a 6 will take it off the table. My Nurgle are undefeated against orks, and boast an amazing win record in 4th using rhino rush tactics based on rhino walls.

4-5 RSBs would be nearly impossible to remove from the table by any army, and be a huge thorn in the side of an ork army. Not to mention that the fact that your ignoring them means they will tear you up the following turn, making your lootas volleys that much more ineffective.

Rhino wall in my experiance will beat both horde and assult 9 times out of 10.

Whether it would work or not, I was just struck by an image of Battlewagons full of Orks flying over the burning hulks of Rhinos and Razorbacks, Ferris Bueller-stylle, to attack the Marines turtled up inside that perimeter.

"What can men do against such reckless hate?!"

I haven't ever lost to a rhino wall army in a real game, sadly.

Had it tried alot.

It humors me greatly.

You think it's underappreciated.

I played 3rd edition, when it was effective.

4th edition, it's vastly overrated and easily countered by balanced lists.

5th edition, it's getting even worse. I look forward to crushing the 'revived' rhino rush with ease.

Pen. Make your 5+? No? Ok, 50% chance you're dead. 50% chance your passengers can't do diddly, if you aren't immobilized or destroyed.

They ain't 35 points for no reason!

Stelek, so you are saying that the tactic is invalid because your opponent can roll a 6 on the pen chart. Ok, just making sure.

Nurglitch is right that against a KoS type force the Rhino wall is less effective, but then the Orks aren't really running a horde force at that point.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I'm pretty sure with a big unit of lootas, rolling a 6 on the pen chart won't be that difficult.

I haven't had that kind of issue myself. Problem is, with multiple loota units placed in the X crossfire pattern, it's very easy to continue shooting the lootas even if 1 fireline gets blocked. It's not like they have a 36" range, after all.

Actually I don't think an Ork Kult of Speed would do well against this 'circle-the-wagons' sort of tactic. Trukks would treat the wrecked Rhinos/Razorbacks as Impassable Terrain. Only Battlewagons would be able to cross them, big-wheel-style.

Imagine:

HQ
Warboss w/Mega Armour, etc
Mekboy w/Kustom Force Field, etc

Elite
Tank Bustas (12) w/Nob, etc
Mega Armoured Nobs (9) w/Battlewagon (Reinforced Ram, Stikkbomb Chucka, Red Paint, Armour Plates, Riggers)
Mega Armoured Nobs (9) w/Battlewagon (Reinforced Ram, Stikkbomb Chucka, Red Paint, Armour Plates, Riggers)

Troops
Mega Armoured Nobs (10) w/Battlewagon (Reinforced Ram, Stikkbomb Chucka, Red Paint, Armour Plates, Riggers)
Ork Boyz (12) w/Nob, Rokkit, Sluggas
Ork Boyz (12) w/Nob, Rokkit, Sluggas
Ork Boyz (30) w/Big Shootas, Shootas
Ork Boyz (30) w/Big Shootas, Shootas
Deff Dread w/Big Shootas

Heavy Support
Battlewagon w/Killkannon, Reinforced Ram, Stikkbomb Chucka, Red Paint, Armour Plates, Riggers
Battlewagon w/Killkannon, Reinforced Ram, Stikkbomb Chucka, Red Paint, Armour Plates, Riggers
Battlewagon w/Killkannon, Reinforced Ram, Stikkbomb Chucka, Red Paint, Armour Plates, Riggers

Mork only knows how many points that is.*


*Q: Can Mork create a number so great that Mork Himself cannot count it? A: Of course, It's "11"...

Stelek, Are you thinking Rhino Rush? We're talking Rhino WALL. You talk about passengers and being more effective in 3rd edition. In Rhino WALL there are no passengers, you are using 35 point Rhinos to block LOS and slow down movement. And blocking one firelane can allow you to focus your own firepower against a subset of theirs. How is that not effective??

Nurglitch: Forgot that trukks wouldn't be able to drive over the wrecks. I may have a new tactic for stopping my buddies KoS force (the moving through the trees is still pissing me off though). The list you post is a bit unusual and probably about 2500 points.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

It can be effective. It was done in 3rd edition, with the passengers moving up and jumping out. Sisters still do this.

Anytime someone walls you, you move out of their firelane.

If you have superior mobility, they lose. So thats most of the time against marines.

You don't need to get over most rhino walls with trukks. You go around them. It's not difficult to do with their mobility. After all, if you provide me 100% fireproof cover, who am I not to take advantage of it?

KoS still has a problem with a transport wall because their model count per trukk is ten or less... that means when they come around the wall you can shoot the trukks with some units then bake the orks that spill out with other units. The ork player will have a conundrum on his hands... if he gets out of the destroyed trukk on the side that shields his orks from return firepower then they will still have to cross no man's land to reach the SM gunline. The problem with the battlewagon is that it moves slower. If both players of are equal skill then the ork player will try to position his units when they bail out of their trukks such that he can use Power of the Waaagh to reach the gun line. The SM player must deploy such that there is sufficient space between the transport wall and his gun line so that the orks cannot get on top of him the turn following coming around the transport wall.

Back to the lootas... most players will shoot the RZBs the turn they move up and pop smoke and only be able to glance them, thus not being able to move them off the table. If the lootas decide not to shoot the RZBs the turn they pop smoke then the TL HBs can decimate the lootas their next turn.

There will be times when there is not enough terrain in your deployment zone to hide all the RZBs. You still have a 50% of going first though and typically lack of terrain to hide the transports is not an issue. When I played Blackmoor a couple of months ago at a local RTT I did not have enough terrain in my deployment zone to hide all my rhinos (BA army) and Blackmoor got to go first, which pretty much won the game for him since he was able to remove two of rhinos off the table during his first turn of shooting.

G

TL HB 'decimate' lootas? Neat trick...

I agree with you on that game. Still don't think that LR was a good idea, but the past is past.

Quick note: Decimate means kill one in ten (except when Clovis the Redeemer does it, then it's 9/10!).

It just occurred to me that a unit of Space Marine Scouts armed with Sniper Rifles could do a number on a unit of Lootas: they hunker down in cover and pin the Lootas down with their Sniper Rifles. Even better, two units of five.

@Stelek, I applaud your great success against the rhino wall. My only thoughts are your opponents weren't quite savvy on how the tactic is performed. I can say with the utmost certainty, that the greatest player, with the greatest success with this tactic is in the WC, and saying that, we WC members know what it can do.

I wonder what WC is.

Faced lots of opponents.

Few seem savvy TBH, else they'd win.

The super-secret clue to the meaning of WC is in his signature...

Has signatures turned off (cause 99% are stupid).

Okay here is how the game against Godzilla Nidz went down...

Mission was Seek and Destroy Gamma level. I deployed my entire army along the back edge of my deployment zone using the RZBs to shield the tactical squads. Devs are located interlocking in the middle of my gun line... that is, three ranks deep. LSTs were setup on one flank using intervening terrain for cover.

Opponent deploys his MCs as close as possible to my gun line with the genestealers hiding behind them...

Cs-Ce-Cs-HTwG-HTwG-Ce-Cs-Ce
--St--------------------------St
--St--------------------------St

Legend:
HTwG = Hive Tyrant w. Tyrant Guard
Cs = Carnifex fielded as heavy support
Ce = Carnifex fielded as elite
St = Genestealer unit

Genestealers were positioned to flank around end of MC wall when they got within charge range.

We roll for first turn and I win.

- 1st Turn -
LSTs come out and are in range to one side of MC wall. LSTs unload and drop two carnifexen (one elite and one heavy support). Devs unload and drop another carnifex (heavy support) and put two wounds on another (elite). RZBs unload and drop wounded carnifex. So first turn I have already dropped four of six carnifex... two more to go then I could start to work on Tyrants.

Nid player uses movement to close gaps in his MC wall. Genestealers on one flank use fleet to drop back in behind the reduced MC wall:

HTwG-HTwG-Cs-Ce
--St--------------St
--St--------------St

First Tyrant targets an LST squadron and destroys one and stuns the other. Second Tyrant shakes another LST in the other squadron. Last carnifex fielded as heavy support targets the second LST squadron and shakes the other skimmer.


- 2nd Turn -
LST from first squadron takes off moving 12 inches which forces the stunned LST to count as destroyed. Second LST squadron with two shaken skimmers flies back behind cover. Single LST moves over 6 inches and pulls up close to the remaining skimmer from the first squadron. RZBs redeploy such that there are now gaps for the tactical squads to shoot through with their plasma guns. The two LSTs out in the open target the last carnifex fielded as heavy support and drop two wounds. First Dev squad unloads on the wounded carnifex and destroy it. The other two Dev squads target the last carnifex and drop it. RZBs start shooting exposed genestealers and polish off one unit while taking the second below scoring. Tactical squads also target the wounded squad of genestealers and finish them off.

MC wall now consisting of two Tyrants and their Tyrant Guard shuffle forward while the two remaining genestealer units decided to move full speed ahead towards my gun line, both units now using fleet as well. First Tyrant target the first LST and manages to break off its assault cannon. Second Tyrant fires at the lone LST and destroys it.


- 3rd Turn -
Two LSTs behind cover pop out. Other LST with heavy bolter left moves over 6 inches toward remnant flank of decimated MC wall. All three LSTs fire on two genestealer squads, destroying one and bring the other to just over half strength. RZBs open on remains of last genestealer unit and destroy it. All three Dev squads target first Tyrant with Guard and do a total of five wounds, removing two Guard and wounding the other.

MC wall consisting of two Tyrants and four Guard in total continue to shuffle forward... they are starting to get close and might be able to charge next turn. First Tyrant targets one LST and destroys it. Second Tyrant targets another LST and stuns it.

- 4th Turn -
Tacticals mount up in RZBs and skirt 12 inches over to widen the distance between them and the last of the MCs. Mobile LST pulls back just over 6 inches. All three Dev squads unload on the first Tyrant unit and kill both Tyrant and lone Guard. Lone LST unloads on last Tyrant and does one wound on a guard.

Again the last MC unit shuffles forward and fires into lone mobile LST but can only shake it.

- 5th Turn -
Shaken LST moves over 6 inches. RZBs pull up so tactical squads can rapid fire into MCs. All Devs target the last target and kill all three Guard. LST puts one wound on last Tyrant. Tacticals rapid fire and kill last Tyrant.

Game over.

G

So you got first strike off with your whole army and this validates your list?

Just curious, have you played this like 20-30 times against multiple comers in various missions?

Especially the ones that shut down your entire army but for the LST as far as killing tanks/MC/marines goes?

I've played against this army type with my horde nids and had 40% cover on the board, and it was a joke. I knocked out the Razorbacks and the LS, and my horde overran the marines by turn 3. Depend way too much on weak vehicles to give you anti-infantry support. Doesn't take much to bring them down.

I could only imagine how this would go down against my Nightshield DE, my council eldar, my Tau, or even my Chaos. It's not that it's a bad list--it's a run of the mill list really--it's that there are so many other lists out there that are superior in terms of mobility, firepower, and survivability....almost always in all categories.

I mean, you're getting into transports and moving guys around...it's almost laughable to think about it. Killing 16 wounds of T6 MC in one turn with this list is less about skill or list power and more about luck.

I can pack a hell of a lot more firepower in a list than this one has, and I've had problems killing 4 MC in a single turn but you seem to think this would be 'normal' for your list. 6 lascannons, 4 heavy bolters, 4 plasmaguns...and 3 Asscannon speeders? It's min/maxed, but it isn't anything 'good' or 'powerful'. I'd say it's making the best army you can from a sh*t list, but that isn't saying much when how good a list is determines alot of how well it does in 40K.

What do you think? Am I missing something?

I'm not attacking you personally, in case my internawt speak isn't coming across right. Just being objective and honest, without trying to sound like a prick while I'm doing it.

What would you suggest for more fire power? As I see it the marines' lascannon, heavy bolter, and assault cannon are the best 3 guns they have. Could you create the MOST effective list min/max ing these guns based off your vast experience with all the given uber lists you have faced on various missions. (After rereading what I just wrote it sounds a little rude, this is NOT my intention.)

Stelek you are amazing really. And you don't need to take that as a compliment.

"6 lascannons, 4 heavy bolters, 4 plasmaguns...and 3 Asscannon speeders"

I actually had nine lascannons and five landspeeders. If you had bothered to read my army list more carefully you would have known. Also if you have followed this thread then you would know I have played the list twice so far. It just shows that you do not closely read what others say, probably just a quick glance with your mind already made up, and then you spout off as usual. Or you deliberately change the facts in an attempt to beguile others.

If you are as good as you say you then bring an army to Adepticon and I will play you there with this list. Basically I am suggesting you put up or pls shut up.

G

Good Job GBF. As I said before, its great to see someone who can make a competitive list with the DA. Most of my games aren't quite so competitive but I think I'll try out a variation on your list.

Thanks!

Oh, and I've given up on Stelek. It's easy to continually knock down other people, quite another to actually put your money (army) where your mouth is. Besides, he's already said why he wins so much, he doesn't play anyone who's any good:

"Faced lots of opponents.

Few seem savvy TBH, else they'd win."

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Thanks brother!

G

Hmmm I looked at your original post vs the Nid list.

Where are you getting the new numbers from in 1500 points?

Why Adepticon? You can go to Vegas.

I guess me writing why your army is pathetically bad is easily answered by a one-liner.

And you wonder why I don't read what you post. Being analytic isn't your strong suit.

Thanks for getting that batrep together GBF.

The nid batrep was quite illuminating. I was bored and work is slow, so i ran some numbers.

With a generous probability of rending, and avoiding an excess of 1's to wound, I can see how 4 fexes were dropped in a turn. I would call it one result of many in an expected band of results. In other words, if that army list must kill 4 fexes a turn to win, then it is going to lose a lot.

However, reading that batrep, it is pretty obvious that you didn't really 'need' to kill 4. 3 fexes a turn (a mixture of heavy and light) is a much more reasonable probability, and I think you would have come out on top had you left an elite fex up at the end of turn 1.

The new question is... If you only kill 2, or the nid player gets to go first, how does it turn out.

my roommate is just starting 40k and he is going for dark angels, I may be testing this list or one very similar in order to answer those questions for myself. Thanks again for the writeup.

If the Nid army had gone first or if there had been more terrain the game would have been a lot more of a challenge in my opinion. I think I was lucky that my opponent loves his twin-linked venom cannons and feared the assault cannons. If the Nid player had gotten first turn I still think I could have won but I would not have been able to pour out such a high volume of firepower that ignores armor saves. I would say the table had about 20 - 25% terrain.

G