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I know Tegeus was just answering a direct question and he is definitely not wrong, but comparisons from the CSM codex to the CD codex are apples and oranges. If you try to make a CSM prince in the CD book, you end up with the exact same thing, and you pay like 80 more points for it. Taken out of context that seems ridiculous.

A couple demon prince tips, from play experience... don't buy wings. i don't care how fast they make you go.... 60 points for wings is lol. Taking 3 princes and buying wings for all of them costs 180 points! If you aren't going to buy them wings, and you want them to do something, make them shooty. i love this setup...

demon prince 80 mark of tzeentch 25 bolt of tzeentch 35 master of sorcery 10 gaze of chaos 20

You've skimped on iron hide and wings, and saved 90 points in doing so. Your range is only 24" but you deep strike, range isn't an issue (unless it is extremely short). You have 4 BS5 shots all of them at least ap3. one shot is an excellent medium vehicle killer. The chaos marine demon prince is better in a vacuum, but the chaos demon's demon prince brings quality sturdy shooting to a list that really needs it.

I've played games with the soulgrinder. The pie is better than bs5 gaze of chaos, but the tongue is terrible. The lack of quality cover saves in 4th edition has made a lot of epople overvalue this thing i think. Pie is still good in 5th, but 4+ cover is everywhere. And they fall over and die against too many armies. Sure orks hate them, but eldar and dark eldar with lances, anyone with 6 lascannons will blow them away too quickly, Sniperfexes will knock off the maw cannon and/or immobilize it.

I tried an 84 model "horde" Zero_Cool, for 3 games. Problem is that 84 models is not a horde, and 42 models is DEFINITELY not a horde. I struggled right away. the problem was, my opponent wouldn't completely wipe out a unit, he'd take a horror unit down to 4 or a demonette unit down to 3 models and move on. Under 5th edition rules, 3 demonettes just aren't a threat. he just ignored them and shot up my bloodletters completely. Horde demons also are woefully unequipped to deal with vehicle walls. No one can fly over, and none of them can consistently pop a vehicle from range. the ones that can do something consistent to vehicles seem to be priority number 1 for shooting. So they rend a chimera, take a strength 3 hit on all their models and lose even more casualties.

My final advice would be contrary to what a lot of people are advocating... My advice (even for 5th edition) is do not rely on your troops choices for your damage output. They are universally slow and easy to kill. I know bloodletters look good and demonettes look good, etc. the problem with demonettes is that every T3 wound they fail to save costs them 4 precious rending attacks, its way too easy to reduce their effectiveness with piddly shooting. Like storm bolters on rhinos or long range bolter fire. An opponent who is good at math and good at 40k can just pick away at a unit until its lost its explosiveness and then let it live, and move on. 3 demonettes charging a 5 man combat squad don't win big, if they even win at all. you think they'll beat genestealers or gaunt hordes or chem-inhaler guard? The bonus of a monstrous creature is that they don't lose any of their effectiveness until their last wound is gone. I know thats common sense, but the last game I dropped my MCs in front of a shooty marine army. they shot their lascannons i made a reasonable amount of invulnerable saves, I shot preemptively with my demon princes, and I lost a total of 3 MC wounds. When i went on turn 2, it was at 100% speed and effectiveness.

Fortunately, for scoring units, you've got awesome choices. i mentioned this before, but deep striking nurglings into cover is horrifyingly obnoxious for your opponent. Take some dangerous terrain tests, then take cover all game. they'll have to charge you to actually kill you, and that means they'll have to run TOWARDS your shooty demon princes. Plaguebearers aren't in the list to kill people, they do two things very well, and that makes them important. take cover on an objective, and tie up shoota boys for a few turns.

the demon princes might not really stand out at first. but the first time you face a DE raider list, or eldar mech, you'll be looking for that BS5.

Just a quick note: the poster I was responding to was talking about using CSMs and Daemons in an Apoc game, so they're directly comparable in this specific case. But yes, there's little use comparing the two ordinarily.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Just a quick note: the poster I was responding to was talking about using CSMs and Daemons in an Apoc game, so they're directly comparable in this specific case. But yes, there's little use comparing the two ordinarily.

woops, yep, thats apples to apples then.

the only thing I can think of is against eldar runes of warding , or leadership 10 psychic hoods. Demons "powers" are guns that roll to hit and don't trigger "psychic defenses", if anyone didn't already know that.

Nurglings have a problem--they are swarms and don't take objectives. Since they don't shoot, it's not like they are rangers or anything. They're not something I worry about unless they're in my way.

If your T5 3+ save DP's lived in front of a shooty marine army, I must ask how shooty it actually was.

Stelek wrote:Nurglings have a problem--they are swarms and don't take objectives. Since they don't shoot, it's not like they are rangers or anything. They're not something I worry about unless they're in my way.

If your T5 3+ save DP's lived in front of a shooty marine army, I must ask how shooty it actually was.

Neither the swarms section or the mission of objectives section of the 5th edition PDF that i have been playing with say anything about swarms and scoring.

the swarms section says they have vulnerable to blasts and stealth, and the mission objectives section says "any non-vehicle troops choice"

My demon princes survived because they had a bloodthirster and a keeper of secrets in charge range of their big important scoring unit, they were the ones taking the shots. my demon princes don't have iron hide, they have 4+ invulnerables. On the turn i hit, I dropped a thirster and keeper of secrets within 15" of their main line, i dropped three demon princes about 20" away from their lines and they took out a rhino and then took out a combat squad that was suddenly in LOS thanks to the ap1 bolt of tzeentch exploding the rhino, i also took out 7 devastators when the flamers dropped right on top of them.

So my turn 1 was 1 rhino gone. 4 of 5 combat squad killed (the plascannon died) and 7 devastators (3 of them lascannons) i killed one extra marine with the explosion of the rhino. And I pavaned a big unit through difficult terrain to push them further back from the demon princes (now more than 24" away).

As you can see i didn't just "land and stand there". Which is a picture that gets painted of demon armies before some one plays against a good one.

On the marine players turn, he still had 5 lascannons, a plasma cannon, a whirlwind, tons of plasma guns, and bolters to fire. But he chose not to ignore the bloodthirster and the keeper. in addition to putting 3 wounds on the bloodthirster he also used his small arms fire to kill off the 3 flamers. Clearly they are one of the most devastating units to have drop in your lap, and with T4 and a 4+ invulnerable save, they can be slightly more obnoxious to get rid of than one might think.

The latest revision says 'infantry'. They aren't infantry, which in GW land also rules out 'jetbike infantry' and 'jump infantry' as non-scoring 'troops'.

The fact that you flamed devs speaks volumes, sadly.

Stelek wrote:The latest revision says 'infantry'. They aren't infantry, which in GW land also rules out 'jetbike infantry' and 'jump infantry' as non-scoring 'troops'.

The fact that you flamed devs speaks volumes, sadly.

Well, that would change things immensely. making plaguebearers even better, and less fast moving scoring units for me to worry about. doesn't change anything structurally about my list. And I haven't seen that version.

The fact that i flamed devs apparently doesn't speak volumes. I was not aiming for them, I was aiming for a scoring unit. Perhaps you failed to remember that sometimes deep striking units scatter. The 3 man flamer unit actually did scatter 7" laterally away from a tactical combat squad. By pointing my templates the other way I was able to cover a large amount of devs. i was out of range of 'scoring units' after the scatter.

Either way, I'm sorry to have saddened you. Usually you and I are a bit more upbeat in our discourse.

Ok, I was thinking about this the other day. If a demon player maxed out on nothing but nurglings, how on earth could he lose an objective mission?

Nurglings aren't infantry.

TC: It might not matter if the 5th Edition rules end up saying something along the lines of "non-vehicle Troops are scoring units."

ExtrenM(54): He could lose because Nurglings generally stink, IIRC. You can't use them to advance reliably against your enemy and almost every shoot that sneaks through the save would destroy one outright.

Ummm, my Daemon Codex says this about Nurglings:

"Unit Type: Infantry. Special Rules: Daemon, Swarm."

Does the Swarm special rule somehow make them not infantry?

Ninja is right! My bad.

N1NJ4 wrote:Ummm, my Daemon Codex says this about Nurglings:

"Unit Type: Infantry. Special Rules: Daemon, Swarm."

Does the Swarm special rule somehow make them not infantry?

Hmmmmm ...I am dusting off my 20 painted, based, and lonely Nurglings right this moment.

I have seen nothing to indicate that you can't have a unit be infantry AND a swarm.

Edit: 3 wounds, immune to instant death with an easy 2+ cover save under 5th ed rules the nurglings are looking much better than they did when I first read through the book yesterday.

PanzerLeader wrote:TC: It might not matter if the 5th Edition rules end up saying something along the lines of "non-vehicle Troops are scoring units."

ExtrenM(54): He could lose because Nurglings generally stink, IIRC. You can't use them to advance reliably against your enemy and almost every shoot that sneaks through the save would destroy one outright.

All daemons are immune to instant death, so they're gonna be annoying as hell. It would seem that they would be pretty hard to dislodge off of an objective.

You can be 'infantry'. If you are anything in addition to that, you don't score.

So 'swarm infantry', 'jump infantry', do not score.

Only 'infantry'.

Shep:

I meant if you were able to deepstrike next to devs, your opponent played into your hands and I don't think very much of the games results. A proper anti-deep strike formation should protect strong assets, and prevent you from flaming tons of guys dead. That didn't occur. That is a huge mistake on the part of your opponent. When that gets corrected, and your demons don't do very well...what then? Back to the shelf? People aren't buying the army in large numbers for a reason--it's obvious it's contrived, it doesn't feel right for 40k, and it had serious power imbalances against so many armies it's not funny.

Stelek wrote:You can be 'infantry'. If you are anything in addition to that, you don't score.

So 'swarm infantry', 'jump infantry', do not score.

Only 'infantry'.

If that is the case then nothing in the army scores. All of the infantry is at bare minimum daemon infantry, or in the case of nurglings demon, swarm, infantry.

However, I don't think that is the case. If you look at the nurgling entry in the book, and I quote, they are "unit type: infantry ...special rules: Daemon, Swarm." They are not unit type: infantry, swarm. The only way I could see this being different is if something has been added to the swarm rule in the 5th edition book to say that they never score even if they are infantry. As it stands under the 4th edition rules there is nothing to prohibit swarms from scoring. Many of the books have specific rules stating that their swarms don't score (such as the Tyranid book and the old Chaos Marines book) but there is no such exception in the Chaos Daemons book. What really convinces me here is that swarm is not listed under the unit type but under a separate heading which indicates that it has no bearing on the unit type just as daemon has no bearing on the unit type for scoring purposes.

Keep in mind that other "special rules" in the book are fleet, furious charge, slow and purposeful, and feel no pain. I don't see any reason why these would keep an infantry model from scoring so why would swarm?

I hate to double post but I want to clarify something.

I actually do agree with you, Stelek, that jump infantry do not score under what 5th ed. rules I have seen. They are actually listed as "Unit Type: Jump Infantry". If the nurglings were listed similarly I would agree there as well. However, they are listed as "Unit Type: Inantry" so as best I can tell they are a scoring unit.

Demon is a classification for the army special rule.

Like Space Marines and Adepta Sororitas.

Plaguebearers, Demonettes, Bloodletters...these are all infantry as defined by their entry.

Nurglings are swarms, and don't score. (In 5th edition.)

If you think I'm talking about 4th edition in any way, please consider yourself corrected. I don't care how weak, powerful, broken, or misunderstood a unit/army is in 4th edition. In a couple months it'll all be moot.

Stelek, your conclusion (based on the rumours you mention) is correct, but your earlier argument is wrong. It isn't that

You can be 'infantry'. If you are anything in addition to that, you don't score.

So 'swarm infantry', 'jump infantry', do not score.

but that units with the Swarm rule are specifically designated as non-scoring. It's different from the case of Jump Infantry, who are not "Infantry" at all.

Actually 'jump and bike/jetbike' infantry will be infantry.

Not rumor, fact.

I don't base my statements on rumors, TC.

So basically, "Swarm" will be redefined as part of the units type, not just a special rule? Say so, then.

I don't care what you call them. I don't use the term "rumours" in a pejorative way--all I mean is "claims that have not been publicly substantiated." I can't help but notice, though, that you have supposedly always based your statements on facts, not rumours, yet you are making different statements now than you were a couple months back. :S

So if nurglings aren't scoring that changes my plans a little.

Here is my nw 1850 list for daemons.

Lord of change- breath of chaos 280 (1)

The Masque 100 (1)

3 flamers 105 (2)

3 flamers 105 (2)

8 plauge bearers 120 (1)

8 plauge bearers 120 (1)

6 horrors 102 (2)

6 horrors 102 (2)

6 daemonettes 84 (2)

6 daemonettes 84 (2)

6 seekers of slaneesh 102 (2)

Soul Grinders phlegm 160 (1)

Soul Grinder 160 (1)

daemon prince wings slannesh Pavane of slannesh breath of chaos 210 (1)

The basic plan is to have the big stuff come in 1st (hopefully) and mini lash everything together for the grinders to eat, while the plauge bearers hold the line. Then everything comes in and runs a muck with the seekers used as an anchor.

What do you think?

I don't recall saying swarms would ever be scoring troops since they have been non-scoring pretty much since the beginning of 5th...

I do try and limit what I say to what is publicly leaked by others so nothing ill befalls me in the warp. I'm not Bell of GW Propaganda with a Free Pass, after all. Many times this means speaking as if the old way is the new way because the new way isn't public yet.

Hopefully you understand the need for a bit of deception.

When I say the demon codex is pathetic, do you believe me now that you can see it for yourself?

Yes, it kills marines. So does every other non-marine army. It does not do well against non-marine armies.

Jumpinfantry, beast, monstrus creature, cavalry, vehicle, jetbike and infantry are defined by the unit type entry in the codex.

There is nothing about swarms or any other special rule changing that.

Stelek wrote:Demon is a classification for the army special rule.

Like Space Marines and Adepta Sororitas.

Plaguebearers, Demonettes, Bloodletters...these are all infantry as defined by their entry.

Nurglings are swarms, and don't score. (In 5th edition.)

If you think I'm talking about 4th edition in any way, please consider yourself corrected. I don't care how weak, powerful, broken, or misunderstood a unit/army is in 4th edition. In a couple months it'll all be moot.

Can you quote me where you are getting this from? Unless there is something in the 5th ed rules stating that swarms make a unit either not infantry or not scoring then I see no reason to think that they would be treated as anything but what their unit type is ...infantry. "Swarm" is not a unit type and is not listed under unit type.

Edit: In the 5th ed. PDF I have it just says that units that come from the troops allowance are scoring unless they have a special rule that states otherwise (paraphrase). I'm not saying that you don't necessarily a different or even final version of the rules in front of you I'm just wondering what it is in that version that would make the nurglings non-scoring because in the version I have they absolutely are scoring.

The game rules have advanced beyond what you have.

Stelek wrote:The game rules have advanced beyond what you have.

Constructive and not trolly at all, as usual.

Let's be clear. Even if Nurglings are non-scoring in the super-secret version of next editions rulebook Stelek claims to have pulled out of his time machine, they are still an amazing troop choice. So they don't score, big whoop. Doesn't mean they still don't devour anything non-vehicle they can get their tiny plague-covered claws on. Enemy troops eaten by Nurglings or simply held in place by Nurglings and then charged by Slaaneshi/Khorne troops don't score either. You can hardly go wrong with a few units of Nurglings dropped near any enemy infantry. You can spare the ~200 points it takes to grab 2 units of 7 bases, right? Think of them like IG plasma death droppers, they will be dead by game's end, but their impact is entirely disproportionate to their cost.

Wait, a leaked PDF from a year ago--you think it hasn't changed since then? I need a time machine? Two tools for the price of one.

Nurglings are 'great'? How? Explain it to me.

21 T3 wounds with a 5+ invulnerable save.

They don't block LOS. They don't even give cover saves really, because they're so low.

So I can shoot your other troops dead, and then kill the nurglings as I see fit because they're utterly useless at doing anything.

I laughed at nurglings in the old chaos codex and they were BETTER than these except of course for the instant death thing being negated. Big woop. I put a template or a blast on you, and instead of getting 3 wounds with a battle cannon I get 2?

Gee, huge difference. Nurglings are what I like to call uber close combat blockers. Know how I like to ignore them? Toss a character into them, let them surround him. Either he'll die or they will, but odds are he'll tie them up while my troops gun down your other troops.

Then what? Oh right, kill the stupid nurglings because they do in fact suck and their impact IS entirely disproportionate to their cost. If they cost less than they do now, they'd be decent as throw away troops.

Spend 10% of my army points on such crap units? Please.

My EC can eradicate them in ONE turn. How good is such a unit...when it dies in one turn? There are so many ways to deal with them it's not funny. Tank shock nurglings away from your lines. Hit them with a kannon battery on frag mode and watch them disintegrate. Use anything with bolters and they die. Close combat troops chew them to pieces, if you wanna bother. Flamers of any sort? Immolators are hilarious. One shot, one kill.

You can't really believe these units are any good against someone castled up properly to stop your deep strike. It's not like I'm going to be surprised by your list in 5th, ya know. Wow Nurglings, heralds or GDs, some fast stuff, bloodletters/demonettes, and soulcrap or DP's of take it in the ass from everyone. Wait, wait...really? Say it ain't so, charlie....say the army isn't predictable and easy to pick apart.

I pray for the ability to get FIVE demon armies at LV, but I know it won't happen because there won't be a demon army in the top twenty after day one.

You know it too, in your heart.

I agree with Nurglings, I will be picking some up as they are a great tarpit unit. 3 wounds with a 5+ inv save for 13 points? Sounds good to me. If they cannot score, 1 unit of them is still quite helpful to have, and if they do score, well damn, put them in.

From my experience, seekers and flamers have the best chance of doing mass damage. Flamers are great as either a 3 strong suicide unit (I usually just drop them close and hope for the scatter, fortune favors the bold) or in 4's or 5's and used as a sneak attack when they have an Icon to latch on to. A flame template that always wounds on a 4+ and allows only inv saves is just sick. Add in they are jump troops and it's good times.
Seekers can put out so much rendy goodness it's insane. Again, in 5th they'll be a little more believable but still, they are gold.

From my experience, Soulgrinders do not earn back their points at all. Perhaps against a horde army like Ork or Nid, as they are the only big blast weapon in the list besides the named GUO, or against Necrons where you need a str 10 AP 1 weapon and lots of them, but so far, I was not impressed.

Daemonettes need to be in large groups to survive and will not win a war of attrition, anything that survives the charge (and with the new kill zone rule changes, this is even more true) will wear them down quick. T3 and a 5+ save? They are guardsmen in terms of surviving attacks back.

Bloodletters are the best troop choice in my opinion, in terms of winning back points, as they will rip apart many many things and they are cheap enough to take a decent amount.

Anyway, those are some general thoughts from my 8 games with the codex, I may be totally wrong but it's what I've seen so far.