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whitedragon- I've been playing all of my games with a pdf of the 5th edition rules... edited to include most of the 'confirmed' rumors. In 5th edition if you shoot at a transport and kill it, the contents of the transport become a legal charge target. So if a bloodthirster was planning on charging a transport anyway, you've got a chance to get the creamy filling instead.

Polonius- Gaze is awesome, but I can't imagine putting it on something that I would want to be running/fleeting with. I agree with redbeard there.

Shep-

You suggested taking out skulltaker/herald in favor of DPs. Arent DPs really slow and dont "snipers" generally need more speed? I could take out skulltaker for another DP or take out skulltaker and herald for Lord of change/kos. Or just get one DP and use the rest for more troops (horrors, hounds?)

And is 5 MC really that good of an idea to put ~1k points into? how durable are they?

My DPs are one of the units that I'm pretty confident that I like a lot. Snipers don't need to be fast. the tzeentch DP like you run can land easily and safely, and be firing shots on turn 1. His shots are at least as effective as his close combat attacks, he has a 24" range and can move 6" towards where you ultimately want them to be, firing all the way. their 'speed' comes from their ability to put 4 high quality shots into people from 24" away. I bet you are thinking that snipers need speed because you are thinking about units like land speeders and other small footprint high firepower units that have to hide from fire on turn 1. Shooty demons don't need nearly as much maneuverability, they get to land in an unpredictable place, very close to the opponent. If wings were 15 points I'd take them, but they are unfortunately not.

As to your question about 5 MCs. I can't honestly answer that. I played my first few games with the "horde" approach. i didn't take any units with toughness higher than 4. i took lots of demonettes and lots of bloodletters. I took fiends and screamers for tank kill, and heralds for tricks and close combat potential. I tried bluescribes, masque, and any other trick I could find. The army felt underpowered and played like target practice for my opponent. I immediately switched to the other extreme, with max MCs. After switching, I went undefeated against marines in 4 games. I actually tied the eldar army I was really afraid of, and have managed to split my games against 160 model orks. I haven't returned to use the other units because I'm doing all of my learning with this list...

What I'm trying to say, is that lots of single wound models didn't work for me, and lots of MCs is starting to work for me as i play more games. Until i go back and revisit all of the units in the context of a good list and using all of the tricks I've learned, it'd be pretty silly for me to say that 5 MCs is the way to go.

How durable are the MCs? Well if they were any more durable, some armies would find it impossible to beat demons. Having said that, every game i play I wish that they all had one more wound. I generally finish my games with only 1 or 2 MCs left. Its hard to win the victory point games by a big enough margin. You start the game, kick ass, take control, and win on objectives usually. but when games drag on to later turns, the units that you didn't kill start to get annoying and start to pick at your MCs. that wave serpent that you couldn't penetrate will start putting wounds on your princes, even though its passengers are long dead. That kinda thing. So when they manage to force the tie in take and hold, you tend to give up lots of victory points on half dead greater demons, dead princes, and all those flamers you suicided with. Mcs aren't any more durable than a comparable sized unit, but they don't lose any of their effectiveness as they lose wounds. they fight at high initiative, or they have awesome shots, until they lose their last wound.

Shep wrote:My DPs are one of the units that I'm pretty confident that I like a lot. Snipers don't need to be fast. the tzeentch DP like you run can land easily and safely, and be firing shots on turn 1. His shots are at least as effective as his close combat attacks, he has a 24" range and can move 6" towards where you ultimately want them to be, firing all the way. their 'speed' comes from their ability to put 4 high quality shots into people from 24" away. I bet you are thinking that snipers need speed because you are thinking about units like land speeders and other small footprint high firepower units that have to hide from fire on turn 1. Shooty demons don't need nearly as much maneuverability, they get to land in an unpredictable place, very close to the opponent. If wings were 15 points I'd take them, but they are unfortunately not.

As to your question about 5 MCs. I can't honestly answer that. I played my first few games with the "horde" approach. i didn't take any units with toughness higher than 4. i took lots of demonettes and lots of bloodletters. I took fiends and screamers for tank kill, and heralds for tricks and close combat potential. I tried bluescribes, masque, and any other trick I could find. The army felt underpowered and played like target practice for my opponent. I immediately switched to the other extreme, with max MCs. After switching, I went undefeated against marines in 4 games. I actually tied the eldar army I was really afraid of, and have managed to split my games against 160 model orks. I haven't returned to use the other units because I'm doing all of my learning with this list...

What I'm trying to say, is that lots of single wound models didn't work for me, and lots of MCs is starting to work for me as i play more games. Until i go back and revisit all of the units in the context of a good list and using all of the tricks I've learned, it'd be pretty silly for me to say that 5 MCs is the way to go.

How durable are the MCs? Well if they were any more durable, some armies would find it impossible to beat demons. Having said that, every game i play I wish that they all had one more wound. I generally finish my games with only 1 or 2 MCs left. Its hard to win the victory point games by a big enough margin. You start the game, kick ass, take control, and win on objectives usually. but when games drag on to later turns, the units that you didn't kill start to get annoying and start to pick at your MCs. that wave serpent that you couldn't penetrate will start putting wounds on your princes, even though its passengers are long dead. That kinda thing. So when they manage to force the tie in take and hold, you tend to give up lots of victory points on half dead greater demons, dead princes, and all those flamers you suicided with. Mcs aren't any more durable than a comparable sized unit, but they don't lose any of their effectiveness as they lose wounds. they fight at high initiative, or they have awesome shots, until they lose their last wound.

Well do you value GD more than DPs? Right now I have 1 GD and 1 DP. I can easily get another GD dumping my 2 heralds and I might squeeze by(with some unit tweeking) getting 2 DPs. I am considering Lord Tzeentch, Kos, DP Tzeentch, DP slaanesh, DP nurgle. You suggested using Pavane which is pretty cool trick so I am somewhat leaning toward DP Tzeentch+slaanesh. Also thought about a flying Nurgle DP with noxious touch- 2+ wound no AS is pretty cool... any suggestions from your experience using different GD and DPs?

yeah keeper and thirster are the backbone of my entire army. I value them more than any other units in my army. I like the lord of change and i even like the cheap GUO, but they don't do what the keeper/thirster combo does.

As far as princes go. I've seen a lot of princes i like here on dakka. the tzeentch sniper is my favorite primarily because he brings good tank killing. but undivided or khorne marked princes with just iron hide are cheap and nasty. Flying nurgle princes with aura of decay and iron hide are like mini GDs, slaanesh DPs can bring Bs5 pavanes, but they are expensive, I can't really figure out what else to outfit the slaanesh version with. I'd probably try to build him as a stand in Keeper of Secrets if i wasn't using a KoS for some reason.

i think what you need to do is just try out the 'big guy' list. It might not work for you, but you'll be able to answer a lot of the hard to answer questions about survivability after a couple games at your FLGS. this list here will work under 4th ed rules, but it's really designed for 5th. Thats why the plaguebearers are in there. (to score objectives)

thirster
keeper musk pvn

3x3 flamers

2x8 PBs with icons
2x5 PBs

3x tzeentch princes

ask for the MCs, and drop em and start thrashing around and killing models. You'll get a better feel for what they can do. After a couple games, you can re-integrate other units... with better expectations of how they should perform. Keep me informed. Actual data from a real game is pretty damn valuable for all of us dakka-ites.

Shep wrote:yeah keeper and thirster are the backbone of my entire army. I value them more than any other units in my army. I like the lord of change and i even like the cheap GUO, but they don't do what the keeper/thirster combo does.

As far as princes go. I've seen a lot of princes i like here on dakka. the tzeentch sniper is my favorite primarily because he brings good tank killing. but undivided or khorne marked princes with just iron hide are cheap and nasty. Flying nurgle princes with aura of decay and iron hide are like mini GDs, slaanesh DPs can bring Bs5 pavanes, but they are expensive, I can't really figure out what else to outfit the slaanesh version with. I'd probably try to build him as a stand in Keeper of Secrets if i wasn't using a KoS for some reason.

i think what you need to do is just try out the 'big guy' list. It might not work for you, but you'll be able to answer a lot of the hard to answer questions about survivability after a couple games at your FLGS. this list here will work under 4th ed rules, but it's really designed for 5th. Thats why the plaguebearers are in there. (to score objectives)

thirster
keeper musk pvn

3x3 flamers

2x8 PBs with icons
2x5 PBs

3x tzeentch princes

ask for the MCs, and drop em and start thrashing around and killing models. You'll get a better feel for what they can do. After a couple games, you can re-integrate other units... with better expectations of how they should perform. Keep me informed. Actual data from a real game is pretty damn valuable for all of us dakka-ites.

What is the keeper/thirster combo? You mean move units toward thirster with keeper and thirster charges? Is it better to get 1GD over 2 DPs? I know you said you love GDs above all else but the DPs are just little bit away from GDs in stats no? And by the way, can you pavane enemy troops off the tabletop?

Why are you comparing GDs to DPs when they come from different areas of the FoC? By "DPs," do you actually mean "Heralds?"

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Why are you comparing GDs to DPs when they come from different areas of the FoC? By "DPs," do you actually mean "Heralds?"

DP is daemon prince, they are in heavy support. Stat-wise DPs are 1-2 stat behind the GDs with same sign. I am comparing because i can get enough points to have 1 more GD or 2 DPs.

Kinda skipped threw this thread but I haven't seen much in the way of an Epidimious style nurgle army. I have been playing around with a nurgle/khorne mix and found nruglings incredibily tough to kill. Plaguebearers were decent with one wound but in general the list lacked offensive power. Enter the great herald. Once you start passing 10 kills, the nurglings get nasty! 3 attacks each plus charge bonus (unlike the PB) and 3 wounds for less points. I had a unit of nobs tied up for 6 assault phases before I got something else to come in and kill them (wasn't using Epi). And since plaguebearers cant kill crap on turn one, the downside is you have to rely on the MCs and another herald using breath is my thought.

I'm assuming Epi's bonus would kick in on your opponents assault phase. So you plop down nurglings and some big stuff close in, flame on and watch him pick up the small models. Get your bonus and next turn drop more nurglings and Epi (does his bonus count even for models killed before he arrives??? Seems like it would but otherwise, send him in the first wave) I would put Epi with a nice big unit of plagueboys just to keep him safe. Also save something like a GUO for the second wave as a counterstrike, or put a DP with wings behind the front line.

I'm considering spoiling the nurgfest with screamers - need some fast tank kill. A soulgrinder does NOT work - he's not nurgle after all.

nurglings are that good? They seem very killable and not that good at all... how many are you supposed to have to make them worth it?

And Shep, what do you mean by 5th edition point system? care to explain? thanks!

@ armus

Epidimius's tally is only counted while he is on the table. His bonuses are generated at the beginning of your turn only by counting the casualties up until that point. Nurgle units get whatever bonuses they have reached for the remainder of that turn until your next turn when you count again. The count is a running total, but the bonus levels are only checked at the beginning of your turn (you do not "power up" during your opponents turns).

Ok, i playtested the army and it was about even before we had to leave. Played against a shooty chaos army (termies, minimal rapid/heavy squads, tanks). The flamers did fine before getting blasted by rapid fire. The skulltaker didn't live long enough as expected (even with the chariot). The bloodthirster did OK - killed a tank and couple of heavy squads. One seeker squad was blasted to bits by rapid fire before it got anywhere (well 2 survived...) The other seeker squad (due to some awesome rolls!) went straight through a terminator squad but got blasted to bits by shooting. The fiends were fantastic! They ripped through a squad with no casualties and was about to charge another squad. Horrors were pretty good when they got into range - kind of a payback for the rapid fire i received!
We had to quit early but at that time i think with average luck he wouldve killed all my seekers, part of blood letter squad, maybe some of horrors.

I think the biggest disappointment was probably the seekers being so weak when they are not in combat and the bloodletter being a bit slow. I totally loved the fiends, the GD and DP. He had too many min/max units so it was hard to pinpoint a "pointsink".

Here is the revised army:
HQ
bloodthirster w/ ,blessing,unholy might

Elite:
6 fiends
3 flamers X 2
fast:
10 seekers
10 flesh hounds
Troops:
10 blood letters w/ icon
10 daemonettes w/icon
5 horrors w/ changeling w/bolt
5 horrors w/ bolt
heavy:
deamon prince tzeentch, bolt, gaze
daemon prince tzeentch, bolt, gaze
DP slaanesh w/pavane iron hide

Total = 2000

the dilemma is that the slaanesh DP has 5+ inv. so i put in the iron hide, BUT i couldnt fit in a gaze - thought about removing an icon for it but decided not to... the gaze will definitely help for extra damage though....

Also thought about trading the 2 DPs for a GD of slaanesh and use the extra points for some nurglings or something else... any suggestions?

I decided to split the hounds and seekers, blood letters and daemonettes so it is a bit different for the opponent to take on.

All Right. I was so geeked about the daemons that I threw together a list (What I had lying around) and played it in a tournament two days later. I figured I had enough good stuff to come in the middle of the pack. I had:

KuGath
Tzeentch Herald, Master of Sorcery, We Are Legion, BoC

Daemon Prince of Khorne with Wings and Death Strike
(I should have probably made this a GUO and Bloodthirster) But decided I liked the tzeentch herald.

11 Horrors with Changeling, BoC, Icon
7 Plaguebearers with Icon
8 Bloodletters with Icon

2x3 Flamers, BoT

9 Flesh Hounds

In my first play test I played myself against my own IG and used the terrain and a refused flank to turn a crap load of bad luck into a win. Then I faced marines and Necrons and had great luck and absolutely no problem crushing them. The tournament was another story. I got a draw in a game I dominated, because I couldn’t get to his Demolisher in time. In Annihilation, that cost me the win. In the second game we had a very tough game against Orks that went 5.5 turns. If I had the last turn, the concensus was that I would have won. So, the first two games were tough, but in each case it was like I brought just a little too little to finish off each opponent. In the last game I was at a huge, yet comical disadvantage. I was up against hoard IG with jungle fighters on a jungle table with lots of firelanes. But, that was not all. The jungles were DANGEROUS terrain. It was ruled (probably rightfully so) that the jungle fighters ignored the dangerous part of the dangerous terrain. So, I could not use the terrain so much, and he could use it very well. It was an up-hill battle all of the way, yet I had a chance (ever so slight) up to the last dice rolls. Kugath, in the second game was a hog from turn 2-6, taking upwards of 35 power claw attacks in the gut and shrugging off all but four. Yet, in the last game he died to six lasguns on turn four (the turn in which he showed up).

In the first three games I rated my units as follows:
Bloodletters F, Plaguebearers B-, Horrors A-, Flamers A, Flesh Hounds B+, Prince A-, Kugath B-.

I found that Kugath’s neat tricks were all just pretty gimmicky and not worth the extra points. Flamers are a no-brainer, the best unit in the codex. The Plaguebearers did what they were supposed to do, survive and summon, yet I always tended to have the worst scatters and SnP rolls for them and so they didn’t even do that well. Bloodletters never got there. Flesh Hounds filled their roll nicely, holding up the enemy units.

In the tournament, I played the Bloodletters way more aggressively in the first game and that worked out nicely. They almost survived the 1st game, and they scored in both of the last two games. The flesh hounds were not quite as good.

I did not like the Bolt of Change on the horrors. I used it once and it fizzled. As a matter of a fact the only BoT shot that worked in the entire tournament was the last one which a flamer used on the rear armor of a demolisher. The herald got off a good shot against the Orks and I got a pen 1. So, even though I had 4 Bolts, the game never played like I had that much as I was usually using the units that had them for other purposes, or else they just kept bouncing off of demolishers.

I agree that three flamers is ideal for the Wind templates on deep strike, but when facing a hoard army, cover and lots of warpfire is better. Being conservative with them in my last game is what kept me in the game.

I like the plaguebearers and horrors a lot, but the horrors died 2.5 times out of three.

I theorize that flesh hounds are better than the Slaanesh units at tying up units, as the Slaanesh units are going to hit too hard and be open to return fire, but that may play out differently. Flesh Hounds may be more surviveable to return fire, but not by enough, so I base this on the fact that they don’t hit as hard as Seekers.

I not only found hoard armies a huge problem, as I figured, but I found quadrant games to be a problem. I gave up first turn and he had all four quadrants early because I couldn’t push him back at all. I am 90% sure that I would have won all three games with any of my other armies.

My overall conclusions: I agree with those who say that there will be no daemons in the top tables on day 2 of the GT’s. I think there are two builds that were are going to see, 5 Monsterous Creatures, and 4 monsterous Nurgle creatures with Epidemius.

I give it two enthusiastic thumbs up for the fun factor, but two thumbs down for viability. That being said, I enjoy the4 codex and concept enough to keep playing it.

@ zero cool
I realize the check is at the start of the turn but was wondering if it just mean your turn. I feared Epi would have to be on the table but that's not a big problem. Nurglings are still that cool. Feel no pain and a 5+ save is still feel no pain and a 5+ save with 3 wounds and no instant death. They, like the plaguebearers, can't kill squat(s) until Epi's 10-model bonus, but they won't die as much. Battlecannons and the like do ruin their day but most folks are going to ignore them I believe especially with big stuff on the board. The big stuff I'm hoping will fuel the model list and result in surprise! nurglings are gods at 13 pts. I plan to run three squads of 7 (the magic number) costing 273 points. That's not a significant portion of an 1850 army but once epi reaches his mark, one squad (91 points) can easily wipe a tac squad or more. the major flaw, as will any daemon army, is a rhino rush stile marine force that goes after the engine to this army, Epi.

Another issue you have is that in 1/3 of your games Epi will show up in the second wave, on rounds 2 or 3. This can be...problematic.