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Green Blow Fly wrote:Everyone I know who uses Snikrot loves what he can do on the table.

G

But one of his biggest benefits is that the Kommandos can come one from the sides or rear. With the new Infiltrate rules, they can already come on from the sides so you are paying extra for a special character who has a lot of attacks but no PK.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozymandias wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Everyone I know who uses Snikrot loves what he can do on the table.

G

But one of his biggest benefits is that the Kommandos can come one from the sides or rear. With the new Infiltrate rules, they can already come on from the sides so you are paying extra for a special character who has a lot of attacks but no PK.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Also, you're paying for him NOT to come in on the wrong side of the board, 6' away.

Uhhh....all armies are the same tier.

It's the players that make an army top or not.

So you take your best Eldar army versus a clone of yourself from a parallell dimension using his worst Daemon army. Are they the same tier now?

tegeus-Cromis wrote:So you take your best Eldar army versus a clone of yourself from a parallell dimension using his worst Daemon army. Are they the same tier now?

Heck, no! He's already failed to make it top tier because he's using 'his worst army.'

I meant every army book can be top tier.

Even the worst can beat the best.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:The more I think about the Boyz in 5th Edition the less I think that they're all that great.

Primary Long Range Anti-Tank? Gone, Lootas suck for this now. And Tankbustas will STILL suck for this.

Fast Assault Units? Blow now thanks to Trukks having a much harder time hiding to deliver payloads, Similar problem with Storm Boyz. On top of this, once our fragile (and sometimes expensive) Assault Units hit combat and wipe their target, they're now without KFF or Cover Saves, generally, and will get shredded by retaliatory fire. As far as I'm concerned the whole "no-consolidate" thing makes Trukk Boyz a complete non-starter.

Awesome CC Character? Completely nerfed by the requirement to Join units. The Warboss on Bike was so good because you could get him stuck in, sit in combats by turning the Klaw off on the turn you charge if there are no consolidate options, and the ability to just kill whatever he touched as long as it didn't have rending. Now the only "good" thing left to the Orks require more support, in the way of KFF Meks and the Boss needs an Escort unit to not get blown the hell up, and just about all of his options for that are expensive or not durable.

Hordes and Hordes of Boyz? Can now suck on template shaped deaths. Given our horde like nature, as long as the right targets are chosen, scatters will mean very little as you will always be able to hit a mass of troops.

Gains
Kommandos can come in via side table edges, without Snikrot. Probably useful as they're our only easy way to get to enemy tanks who will be a huge problem if they throw templates. Still this isn't that great due to the random nature and necessitates multiple Kommando Squads.

Assaulting Tanks means hitting rear armor, and assault means vehicles get no cover saves. PK Nobz now penetrate most vehicles in the game on a 2+ if in assault. This along with the previous point helps with not having long range anti-tank options anymore, but it doesn't help if opponents are smart and use meat screens for their tanks to stop assaults.

Run rule means Boyz Mobz have more options in terms of engagement.

Concealment to Vehicles means 4+ Cover Saves. KFF Meks now can make Kanz, Wagons, or maybe Dreads even more durable. Kanz seem to be one of the big winners here.

Conclusions

So, why is it exactly that people are thinking Orks are going to be this awesome be-all-end-all army in 5th? If your opponent keeps on taking Lootas you can deal with them fairly easily due to Templates and their limited LD; and they're not that good against Vehicles anymore since they primarily glanced things to death in V4.

Sure if you take a V4 built army against the Horde of Running Orks, you've got problems, but with the fact that you can't consolidate hop into combats now, and that any army with a brain will include templates just because they have to be able to face Horde Orks (or horde anything), I'm not seeing Orks as this super army that people should be so afraid of.

They are all good things!!! I am sick of getting my Necron ass kicked by orks on 4th ed!!!!

Stelek wrote:
You speaking of hordes or something else?

The Horde mostly, but Kult of Speed is going to have problems as well.

Stelek wrote:
I beg to differ on the Lootas. They make excellent anti-tank units and can rip infantry up. Given you can screen them with a 4+ save or put them in cover to get said save...they do not 'suck'.

Tankbustas can be loaded into Trukks, and offloaded near enemy tanks. With a few tank hammers giving auto penetrations on anything but the AV14 LR and Lith (and the demolisher) I think you'll see they aren't nearly as bad you seem to think they are.

As you and some other people pointed out, the most you can expect from them is the ability to keep vehicles stunned by glancing continually. It's no where near as good as they were before when they actually killed most things that weren't AV14. And killing Tanks is a very important thing, considering they can stop you from scoring, and given the mission conditions are "Score objectives or you lose/draw; unless you wipe every enemy model off the table." Then their inability to kill a whole lot rather sucks.

And are you seriously advocating buying a unit of Tankbustas, at the same cost per model as a Marine, then buying ANOTHER unit of Orks, using up FOC slots, just to get a Trukk to throw them in; while your other unit of no less than 10 Orks gets to sit around and do a whole lot of nothing?

Hiding Trukks is rather hard from what I read of the Cover/LOS rules. You can screen them with some pretty big battlewagons (assuming you're using the new models), but when I see that kind of points investment for one unit (absolute minimum cost is 170 Points, and you've got a useless set of 10 models), and I can eliminate 110 of those points with a couple of shots into an Open Topped AV10 vehicle that's hard to hide, I don't see how this is some kind of great strategy to use Tankbusta Boyz. Especially considering a trukk taking damage has a relatively good chance of pinning the LD7 Orks inside.

Stelek wrote:
How are trukks having a harder time delivering their payloads?

You sound like the whiny asses who picked up DE for cheap and declared raider armies 'dead'.

Storm boyz have a hard time delivering their payload? REALLY?!? Guaranteed turn 2 assaults, anywhere on the board? This is difficult?

Yes, you'll have to figure out how to charge multiple units with orks. Wait a minute...there's something wrong with your analysis.

Trukks are having a harder time delivering their payloads because you can shoot through area terrain. 70-80% of the terrain I've played with at local shops is modeled as area terrain. Having a piece big enough to block LOS to the relatively large Trukk model means that hiding more than 1 or 2 a turn is going to be hard if you don't buy Battlewagons to screen them.

Maybe you played with smaller Trukk Models, or maybe you've got tons and tons of terrain that can just count as blocking, but then you're not using the 5th ed rules.

As far as Storm Boyz go the same principle applies. Ok, they get a 4+ Cover save. That's great, they generally get taken in units of 16 or so, throw some templates and shooting at them, and you're looking at something below fearless levels, probably taking LD tests, and with numbers low enough to ensure that they won't be killing a whole lot. And even if they get through and kill a unit, they can sit there and get shot next turn with no consolidation.

That's the problem with Fast Assault elements, they assault something and then die to rapid fire. At least they do when you're playing with T4 6+ save models, who will get no cover saves when that close to the enemy.

OK, you can assault multiple units. This works great for things you'll kill on average, like IG, Tau, etc. Against MEQ's, the more MEQ's you suck into a combat due to the counter charge rules, the more it's going to hurt your Boyz. You can maybe win that combat and hope to run down two squads, but you're looking at taking a lot more shooting on the way in, then looking at counter charging Marines hitting before you do. For units with limited Squad sizes (trukk mobs, storm boyz), this is problematic.

Stelek wrote:
So...you stick him behind a trukk. The trukk zooms 18" up a flank, hiding behind cover. The warboss zooms behind the trukk, hiding behind it. When it's time, you run the warboss out and kill whatever you need to and the trukk boyz take another target on.

By the way, zooming a warboss behind terrain is still a deadly tactic. Thinking otherwise is folly, at best.

It's not like you can ignore a warboss with a klaw. Oh autopen on almost all vehicles? Yes please. 6 attacks charging? Yes please.

Ok, stick him behind a Trukk. Is that Trukk full or empty? Getting cover? Chances are you can shoot the trukk, count on it moving out of the way due to Ramshackle, and then you get to shoot the boss. Getting him behind terrain that can block LOS to him can work, but you have to find ones mid-field that's not area terrain, but at least the Boss is much easier to hide than a Trukk. Yes 6 Attacks charging is good, but the delivery is going to be a bit rougher than now. Plus he has the same kind of problems as most small but potent CC Units. He comes out, charges a tank or unit, and then dies.

Stelek wrote:I don't run hordes of boyz for this reason, it was valid in 4th but so-called 'great players' did it. In 5E, I hope they bring the living carpet of 'yes you kill 5 orks every small blast, and 10 every large'.

I see the horde as having problems with template armies. Losing that many models to a large blast is pretty high, but if you're not playing under optimal spacing conditions, even the 4+ Screening or 5+ KFF save won't help thin out the kind of numbers you'll lose to a lot of templates. So I agree here, in fact it was part of the main point I was trying to make in the original post.

The biggest issue is that a horde will present areas where scatters don't matter, as you'll always get a good clip of boyz under it.

Stelek wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Gains
Kommandos can come in via side table edges, without Snikrot. Probably useful as they're our only easy way to get to enemy tanks who will be a huge problem if they throw templates. Still this isn't that great due to the random nature and necessitates multiple Kommando Squads.

Yes, this is correct.

You run Snikrot, 2 kommandos, 2 normal storm boyz, zagstruk stormboyz, and whatever else you can afford.

Most Ork players believe the Ork Boy is the way to go. Well, you can deal with them in many ways.

A turn 2 multi-assault from kommandos and storm boyz shreds armies. Really. Toss in a few Boyz on trukks and you have a bad day all day.

Kommandos can get in, Storm Boyz and Trukks have to face a large amount of firepower before getting in. Either way, you can wipe a unit (or two with multi assaults and large mobs) and then face shooting from everyone else. This may work great against MEQ armies, but against IG you're toast as he's got more units than you can assault in one turn.

And then there are the armies that out assault you, yeah those kinds of guys can suck with this setup.

Stelek wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Assaulting Tanks means hitting rear armor, and assault means vehicles get no cover saves. PK Nobz now penetrate most vehicles in the game on a 2+ if in assault. This along with the previous point helps with not having long range anti-tank options anymore, but it doesn't help if opponents are smart and use meat screens for their tanks to stop assaults.

So bring kommandos and storm boyz. You really can eff people up.

This is why I mentioned that Kommandos with PK's taking out tanks in the "Gains" section.

Stelek wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Run rule means Boyz Mobz have more options in terms of engagement.

It just means they hit on turn 3 (possibly 2) instead of 4 (possibly 3).

The horde isn't bad, but the more funnel terrain that exists the more likely it is you are going to eat template death in large numbers.

Tyranids can do hordes. IMO horde orks cannot.

Um, yeah that's why I listed this under "gains", you can hit CC earlier if you need to; though there are many cases where you don't want to be in CC.

The point on template death is exactly part of the reason I made this thread, people are saying "Horde Orks are top tier in 5th" and I disagree.

But on that note, if Nids cheapest "Horde" model is 5 points/model and Orks are 6/pts a model but get a lot more for that extra point, how exactly do Nids do the Horde but Orks don't? This makes no sense.

Stelek wrote:
Not really, they are squadrons and lack mobility.

I haven't read the squadrons rules yet in the final print, so I don't know. I thought that if you just get immobilized you get destroyed in a squadron, which was effectively the case in 4th anyway since the squadron would move on and the left behind model would be dead.

Stelek wrote:My honest opinion? There's alot of bad players out there that can't get their head around Orks, and instead think they are uber.

You still glance vehicles to death with lootas. It still works fine.

Glancing Vehicles to death is a much harder proposition, and Lootas are easier to eliminate because of templates. They're a lot of points for something I can neutralize fairly quickly with other armies.

Stelek wrote:
They never should have been afraid of them in the first place. I enjoy seeing big unwieldy slow blocks of crappy troops myself. Firepower + mobility beats them every single time.

Orks in v4 are the epitomy of mobility and firepower. Everything in the army would move and shoot, except Lootas who would just cover major fire lanes and posed a major threat.

I had no problems taking on Mech Eldar players with Orks in V4; in fact they were one of my best matchups because they couldn't deal with the number of bodies I put on the field.

Stelek wrote:
My conclusion:

Orks are dangerous, don't get me wrong. The unimaginative 'Waaghh...I'm dead?' armies aren't top army builds. Alot of people focus on how important certain units are, and how others suck. Frankly, I can find a place in an Ork army for EVERY unit. Does running shooty orks mean I want to run CC orks? Only if they are suicide units. Does running CC orks mean I want to run shooty orks? Only if I don't mind losing them to enemy shooting. There are lots of builds that are dangerous.

The one that gives me the biggest worries is the focused assault army. People think it's 180 orks. Furthest thing from the truth.

You can find a place in an Ork army for Looted Wagons now? Grots? Tank Bustas? Nobz not on Bikes?

When did you become 40k Jesus?

Stelek wrote:I fear this army more than the ork horde army run by and for new players.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/212734.page

It's smaller, and it's gonna waagh all those orks into you on turn 2. If you have ANY kind of static shooting army, you will be assaulted where you setup.

It isn't pleasant.

As a matter of fact, your statements here make no sense what-so-ever.

You're so terribly afraid of CC Orks, but aren't afraid of 180 Orks that can run at you for free? You're telling me you can put down the fire power to stop a Turn 2-3 assault (by your own words earlier in this post) from 180 Foot Orks; but you can't stop 2 Units of Storm Boyz and 2 Trukks hitting you? You can't deploy to block a flanking assault from Kommandos? You don't have enough redundancy in your army to take a loss from a potential Zaagstrukk charge, and then counter with shooting and assault of your own?

I fail to see how you can have an army with the mobility and firepower to not worry about 180 Orks running at you, that at the same time will be more concerned about that stupid army list in a game where you should be able to deploy to counter your opponent and the LOS options now give more 4+ Cover saves than they do blocking LOS terrain.

In fact, for that list you've got TWO troops choices, in 20 Orks total. In 5th Edition in 2/3 of the missions if I kill those two troops choices then the best you can manage is a Draw unless you wipe every single model from my army off the table. And given that you can't consolidate into new CC's anymore after combat, I don't see how you're going to be able to pull off that feat either.

Tell me, what rules, exactly have you been doing all this playtesting for 5th edition under? The PDF? There are some substantial changes from that to the final print rules, which to my knowledge have only been available in FLGS's for a week or two.

Couple things.

Not mentioned in the ork "buffs" here is the fact that range/los sniping of nobs is gone gone gone. Nobs are about the best upgrade hidden squad leader there is, and this (along with the already mentioned nerf to btb casualty removal tricksiness) makes them even better.

Snikrot- Being able to come on any table edge is still a huge ability. Remember flanking scouts only go where you want them 2/3 of the time, and only the sides. Snikrot is a much better back field option, plus he can also come on your side if your opponent is a fast army that gets up in your grill.

In third edition, they decided the Ork weakness was dealing with tanks. That's still the design philosophy, so why should anyone be surprised when there aren't a lot of great long-range anti-tank weapons in the list? Would it be nice, if we had grotz with lascannons? Yes, but it's not going to happen.

What about big gunz? Are they better in fifth?

if I met a clone of me from another dimension I would probably punch him in the face. That, and make fun of his painting.

dietrich wrote:In third edition, they decided the Ork weakness was dealing with tanks. That's still the design philosophy, so why should anyone be surprised when there aren't a lot of great long-range anti-tank weapons in the list? Would it be nice, if we had grotz with lascannons? Yes, but it's not going to happen.

What about big gunz? Are they better in fifth?

You can screen Big Gunz, but they're still crewed by Grots and start to have issues the moment your opponent starts throwing shots into them.

Personally I don't like them, but they could have uses as cheap support units, I think some more time playtesting with them would be a good thing.

I'll be honest, I forget the exact rules for them in the latest codex. I wonder if the looba is worth fielding since the blast can get more models now. I've always been partial to big gun crews, but I don't know if they're really valid or not.

I think the only thing for certain is that it'll take about a year for the new metagame to get worked out. I expect to see a lot more rhinos, because they're now cheaper and block LOS, and more land raiders, because they're better in the new rules.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Stelek wrote:
You speaking of hordes or something else?

The Horde mostly, but Kult of Speed is going to have problems as well.

Ok.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Stelek wrote:
I beg to differ on the Lootas. They make excellent anti-tank units and can rip infantry up. Given you can screen them with a 4+ save or put them in cover to get said save...they do not 'suck'.

Tankbustas can be loaded into Trukks, and offloaded near enemy tanks. With a few tank hammers giving auto penetrations on anything but the AV14 LR and Lith (and the demolisher) I think you'll see they aren't nearly as bad you seem to think they are.

As you and some other people pointed out, the most you can expect from them is the ability to keep vehicles stunned by glancing continually. It's no where near as good as they were before when they actually killed most things that weren't AV14. And killing Tanks is a very important thing, considering they can stop you from scoring, and given the mission conditions are "Score objectives or you lose/draw; unless you wipe every enemy model off the table." Then their inability to kill a whole lot rather sucks.

And are you seriously advocating buying a unit of Tankbustas, at the same cost per model as a Marine, then buying ANOTHER unit of Orks, using up FOC slots, just to get a Trukk to throw them in; while your other unit of no less than 10 Orks gets to sit around and do a whole lot of nothing?

Hiding Trukks is rather hard from what I read of the Cover/LOS rules. You can screen them with some pretty big battlewagons (assuming you're using the new models), but when I see that kind of points investment for one unit (absolute minimum cost is 170 Points, and you've got a useless set of 10 models), and I can eliminate 110 of those points with a couple of shots into an Open Topped AV10 vehicle that's hard to hide, I don't see how this is some kind of great strategy to use Tankbusta Boyz. Especially considering a trukk taking damage has a relatively good chance of pinning the LD7 Orks inside.

That useless unit of trukk boyz is left behind to score your own objective. That's what they do.

Tankbustas can be abused pretty easily, despite their shoot the big ones rule. Run them behind another trukk, or a battlewagon. Stick their trukks nose out just enough to see the unit you want to hit with 10 rokkits. Open fire. Unlike most mobile ork armies that have a hard time killing enemy vehicles, tankbustas can do it for you by sheer weight of fire.

You keep saying trukks are hard to hide, but they really aren't. Just because some stores and tournaments run crap terrain doesn't mean they all do.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Stelek wrote:
How are trukks having a harder time delivering their payloads?

You sound like the whiny asses who picked up DE for cheap and declared raider armies 'dead'.

Storm boyz have a hard time delivering their payload? REALLY?!? Guaranteed turn 2 assaults, anywhere on the board? This is difficult?

Yes, you'll have to figure out how to charge multiple units with orks. Wait a minute...there's something wrong with your analysis.

Trukks are having a harder time delivering their payloads because you can shoot through area terrain. 70-80% of the terrain I've played with at local shops is modeled as area terrain. Having a piece big enough to block LOS to the relatively large Trukk model means that hiding more than 1 or 2 a turn is going to be hard if you don't buy Battlewagons to screen them.

Maybe you played with smaller Trukk Models, or maybe you've got tons and tons of terrain that can just count as blocking, but then you're not using the 5th ed rules.

As far as Storm Boyz go the same principle applies. Ok, they get a 4+ Cover save. That's great, they generally get taken in units of 16 or so, throw some templates and shooting at them, and you're looking at something below fearless levels, probably taking LD tests, and with numbers low enough to ensure that they won't be killing a whole lot. And even if they get through and kill a unit, they can sit there and get shot next turn with no consolidation.

That's the problem with Fast Assault elements, they assault something and then die to rapid fire. At least they do when you're playing with T4 6+ save models, who will get no cover saves when that close to the enemy.

OK, you can assault multiple units. This works great for things you'll kill on average, like IG, Tau, etc. Against MEQ's, the more MEQ's you suck into a combat due to the counter charge rules, the more it's going to hurt your Boyz. You can maybe win that combat and hope to run down two squads, but you're looking at taking a lot more shooting on the way in, then looking at counter charging Marines hitting before you do. For units with limited Squad sizes (trukk mobs, storm boyz), this is problematic.

Who said you can shoot through area terrain? If you cannot see me, you can't shoot me. You can shoot OVER area terrain, IF you can see me. Has something changed in this regard? I don't see this in the book.

Did you look at that army I posted? When it hits together, your army dies. You can pretend otherwise, and say you are going to get caught out in the open...but if you crush 5 enemy units and have 2-3 still locked in combat...what the hell is owning your army? His other 10 units??

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Stelek wrote:
So...you stick him behind a trukk. The trukk zooms 18" up a flank, hiding behind cover. The warboss zooms behind the trukk, hiding behind it. When it's time, you run the warboss out and kill whatever you need to and the trukk boyz take another target on.

By the way, zooming a warboss behind terrain is still a deadly tactic. Thinking otherwise is folly, at best.

It's not like you can ignore a warboss with a klaw. Oh autopen on almost all vehicles? Yes please. 6 attacks charging? Yes please.

Ok, stick him behind a Trukk. Is that Trukk full or empty? Getting cover? Chances are you can shoot the trukk, count on it moving out of the way due to Ramshackle, and then you get to shoot the boss. Getting him behind terrain that can block LOS to him can work, but you have to find ones mid-field that's not area terrain, but at least the Boss is much easier to hide than a Trukk. Yes 6 Attacks charging is good, but the delivery is going to be a bit rougher than now. Plus he has the same kind of problems as most small but potent CC Units. He comes out, charges a tank or unit, and then dies.

Full. Hidden, so you cannot shoot the trukk. Do you play with area terrain that's two inches high or something? What's with the savanna grasslands on your table?

When you put the warboss on a flank, you protect him by making him the furthest unit from the bulk of the army--and there's a unit of trukk boyz in between you and him.

Sure in 4E you could move with tanks and get him, but that's quite a bit harder now in 5E.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Stelek wrote:I don't run hordes of boyz for this reason, it was valid in 4th but so-called 'great players' did it. In 5E, I hope they bring the living carpet of 'yes you kill 5 orks every small blast, and 10 every large'.

I see the horde as having problems with template armies. Losing that many models to a large blast is pretty high, but if you're not playing under optimal spacing conditions, even the 4+ Screening or 5+ KFF save won't help thin out the kind of numbers you'll lose to a lot of templates. So I agree here, in fact it was part of the main point I was trying to make in the original post.

The biggest issue is that a horde will present areas where scatters don't matter, as you'll always get a good clip of boyz under it.

Ok.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Stelek wrote:
Kommandos can come in via side table edges, without Snikrot. Probably useful as they're our only easy way to get to enemy tanks who will be a huge problem if they throw templates. Still this isn't that great due to the random nature and necessitates multiple Kommando Squads.

Yes, this is correct.

You run Snikrot, 2 kommandos, 2 normal storm boyz, zagstruk stormboyz, and whatever else you can afford.

Most Ork players believe the Ork Boy is the way to go. Well, you can deal with them in many ways.

A turn 2 multi-assault from kommandos and storm boyz shreds armies. Really. Toss in a few Boyz on trukks and you have a bad day all day.

Kommandos can get in, Storm Boyz and Trukks have to face a large amount of firepower before getting in. Either way, you can wipe a unit (or two with multi assaults and large mobs) and then face shooting from everyone else. This may work great against MEQ armies, but against IG you're toast as he's got more units than you can assault in one turn.

And then there are the armies that out assault you, yeah those kinds of guys can suck with this setup.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Stelek wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Assaulting Tanks means hitting rear armor, and assault means vehicles get no cover saves. PK Nobz now penetrate most vehicles in the game on a 2+ if in assault. This along with the previous point helps with not having long range anti-tank options anymore, but it doesn't help if opponents are smart and use meat screens for their tanks to stop assaults.

So bring kommandos and storm boyz. You really can eff people up.

This is why I mentioned that Kommandos with PK's taking out tanks in the "Gains" section.

Yeah, I mentioned it a while ago. I'm glad people are starting to notice there are more things than snikrot and lootas in the ork elites section.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Stelek wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Run rule means Boyz Mobz have more options in terms of engagement.

It just means they hit on turn 3 (possibly 2) instead of 4 (possibly 3).

The horde isn't bad, but the more funnel terrain that exists the more likely it is you are going to eat template death in large numbers.

Tyranids can do hordes. IMO horde orks cannot.

Um, yeah that's why I listed this under "gains", you can hit CC earlier if you need to; though there are many cases where you don't want to be in CC.

The point on template death is exactly part of the reason I made this thread, people are saying "Horde Orks are top tier in 5th" and I disagree.

But on that note, if Nids cheapest "Horde" model is 5 points/model and Orks are 6/pts a model but get a lot more for that extra point, how exactly do Nids do the Horde but Orks don't? This makes no sense.

Orks don't have synapse. Orks can be made to run away.

Everyone ran stealers because LD10 was pure gold.

You can run gaunts again, because really...with the ability to run, Tyrant super units can keep up and keep the gaunts in combat forever.

Termagaunts are just fine vs orks, even at +2 points. Leaping is it's own reward, and now that you don't have to take vulnerable flying warrior/tyrant units to keep the gaunts in combat on turn 2...well, life just got alot easier for the Nid horde. See?

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Stelek wrote:
Not really, they are squadrons and lack mobility.

I haven't read the squadrons rules yet in the final print, so I don't know. I thought that if you just get immobilized you get destroyed in a squadron, which was effectively the case in 4th anyway since the squadron would move on and the left behind model would be dead.

Killa Kans are shooty units IMO, not CC units--but they are also CC threat units. Hope that makes sense.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Stelek wrote:My honest opinion? There's alot of bad players out there that can't get their head around Orks, and instead think they are uber.

You still glance vehicles to death with lootas. It still works fine.

Glancing Vehicles to death is a much harder proposition, and Lootas are easier to eliminate because of templates. They're a lot of points for something I can neutralize fairly quickly with other armies.

If I'm spread out 2", and getting a cover save...unless you have hellhounds or something firing large blast templates, I'm highly skeptical of your ability to neutralize anything.

Glancing vehicles to death is not a much harder proposition. It's the same as it is now really, except you can't get a 'best' result and immediately kill it. You have a smaller range to do damage in, but with lootas sheer amount of glancing hits possible you still neutralize tanks. What good is a immobile gunless tank? Unless it's on an objective, it's useless.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Stelek wrote:
They never should have been afraid of them in the first place. I enjoy seeing big unwieldy slow blocks of crappy troops myself. Firepower + mobility beats them every single time.

Orks in v4 are the epitomy of mobility and firepower. Everything in the army would move and shoot, except Lootas who would just cover major fire lanes and posed a major threat.

I had no problems taking on Mech Eldar players with Orks in V4; in fact they were one of my best matchups because they couldn't deal with the number of bodies I put on the field.

Really? I found the 180 ork list laughable with my jetbike eldar. Way too easy to concentrate on and kill 1 boyz squad per turn.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Stelek wrote:
My conclusion:

Orks are dangerous, don't get me wrong. The unimaginative 'Waaghh...I'm dead?' armies aren't top army builds. Alot of people focus on how important certain units are, and how others suck. Frankly, I can find a place in an Ork army for EVERY unit. Does running shooty orks mean I want to run CC orks? Only if they are suicide units. Does running CC orks mean I want to run shooty orks? Only if I don't mind losing them to enemy shooting. There are lots of builds that are dangerous.

The one that gives me the biggest worries is the focused assault army. People think it's 180 orks. Furthest thing from the truth.

You can find a place in an Ork army for Looted Wagons now? Grots? Tank Bustas? Nobz not on Bikes?

When did you become 40k Jesus?

Actually I give credit to Krom&Krog for use of looted wagons. He uses them to great effect to block LOS to two of his trukks.

Grots make excellent screens, and for those who wish to have ALOT of troops but spend their points on non-troops...for a whopping 402 points, you can have 6 troops choices with a total of 120 troops. All of whom can easily provide intermixed cover saves and go to ground as soon as anyone shoots at them for a nice 3+ save in the open on 3 point models. They also provide 4+ cover to models behind them. Wait a minute--what was bad about this again?

I already told you how to play tankbustas.

Nobz not on bikes suck? Well let me see...if I run this army, where's the weak point again?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/212772.page

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Stelek wrote:I fear this army more than the ork horde army run by and for new players.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/212734.page

It's smaller, and it's gonna waagh all those orks into you on turn 2. If you have ANY kind of static shooting army, you will be assaulted where you setup.

It isn't pleasant.

As a matter of fact, your statements here make no sense what-so-ever.

You're so terribly afraid of CC Orks, but aren't afraid of 180 Orks that can run at you for free? You're telling me you can put down the fire power to stop a Turn 2-3 assault (by your own words earlier in this post) from 180 Foot Orks; but you can't stop 2 Units of Storm Boyz and 2 Trukks hitting you? You can't deploy to block a flanking assault from Kommandos? You don't have enough redundancy in your army to take a loss from a potential Zaagstrukk charge, and then counter with shooting and assault of your own?

I fail to see how you can have an army with the mobility and firepower to not worry about 180 Orks running at you, that at the same time will be more concerned about that stupid army list in a game where you should be able to deploy to counter your opponent and the LOS options now give more 4+ Cover saves than they do blocking LOS terrain.

In fact, for that list you've got TWO troops choices, in 20 Orks total. In 5th Edition in 2/3 of the missions if I kill those two troops choices then the best you can manage is a Draw unless you wipe every single model from my army off the table. And given that you can't consolidate into new CC's anymore after combat, I don't see how you're going to be able to pull off that feat either.

Tell me, what rules, exactly have you been doing all this playtesting for 5th edition under? The PDF? There are some substantial changes from that to the final print rules, which to my knowledge have only been available in FLGS's for a week or two.

You don't seem to grasp that there are other ways of playing objective missions other than 'bring 5 billion troops!'. Really, you can play outside the troops section. It's ok.

180 Orks do not have the mobility to hit my entire army inside a very narrow box on the tabletop. Have you really setup a gunline army spread across the table against 180 orks, tried to stop it, realized you can't, lost, and thought Orks were the shizz? Surely you jest. You ALWAYS refused flank a ork army. It doesn't matter if they know it's coming, they cannot physically place all their models to come get you. 180 Orks is alot of space taken up. I do encourage people to argue with me about this, but if you bunch them up to prove me wrong...when you lose 30 orks to a battlecannon shot, who's the dummy?

I already showed you the list, and you aren't sure how it wins...if 5 of your tactical squads disappear on turn 2, and your devs are locked in combat at start of your turn 3...what, pray tell, is going to shoot me? Maybe you know an army that can take a 100 ork charge on turn 2 and survive AND has enough firepower left to rapid fire said orks to death. Honestly I'll have to call bullsh** on you if you think this.

Now let me answer all the nagging questions:

If I deploy to stop the normal kommandos from rushing in on me, snikrot will show up and engage me. I'll also need to be 12" (or more) up to cover the entire deployment zone, which means the storm boyz (all of them) will assault me on turn 2.

What army has the redundancy to take a charge from so many stormboyz, trukk boyz, and kommandos in a single turn. You act like you have one unit stretched out covering your entire army from multiple charges. It's quite possible someone will try that, but then...I know how to beat that kind of defense, as should most experienced players. At least, those of us using the 5E rules.

Which are the current ones. You seem to be under the impression the rules just got finished and rush printed and rush delivered. They were done months ago.

Stelek wrote:
Who said you can shoot through area terrain? If you cannot see me, you can't shoot me. You can shoot OVER area terrain, IF you can see me. Has something changed in this regard? I don't see this in the book.

...

Full. Hidden, so you cannot shoot the trukk. Do you play with area terrain that's two inches high or something? What's with the savanna grasslands on your table?

Granted, I do not own a copy of the rules yet, but I read over the cover section in the display copy, and I didn't see anything that exempted area terrain from the true LOS rules.

If I have a flat base with two skinny trees on it, even if the trees are pretty tall, it's not a big stretch to realize that those trunks aren't going to block a lot of line-of-sight.

Again, I don't have a book, and only read the copy at the store, so may have missed something, but it seems that forests, even though they're area terrain, will not block line of sight significantly. Am I wrong here?

Redbeard wrote:

Stelek wrote:
Who said you can shoot through area terrain? If you cannot see me, you can't shoot me. You can shoot OVER area terrain, IF you can see me. Has something changed in this regard? I don't see this in the book.

...

Full. Hidden, so you cannot shoot the trukk. Do you play with area terrain that's two inches high or something? What's with the savanna grasslands on your table?

Granted, I do not own a copy of the rules yet, but I read over the cover section in the display copy, and I didn't see anything that exempted area terrain from the true LOS rules.

If I have a flat base with two skinny trees on it, even if the trees are pretty tall, it's not a big stretch to realize that those trunks aren't going to block a lot of line-of-sight.

Again, I don't have a book, and only read the copy at the store, so may have missed something, but it seems that forests, even though they're area terrain, will not block line of sight significantly. Am I wrong here?

I think alot of players (meaning, all but the asshats known as rules lawyers) will simply rule trees provide LOS blockage equal to the tree we agree to before the game.

The reason I say this is, my FLGS uses movable tree terrain just like the GT's do.

Uhhh...if we don't say it's one that we will use for the area terrain to see what it blocks, am I cheating when I move the terrain (built for this purpose!) so my models fit?

Now in your example, sure. I don't play with crappy terrain like that. No offense is intended, I think we're just talking about different things. I can setup the trees so you can't see through them on local terrain, but at GT's they tend to skimp on placing actual trees down--because they get in the way of actual play.

So I hope you understand what I'm getting at--that I anticipate people will play the forests as LOS blocking to a certain height.

Else, all people will want is buildings and hills so they can avoid the rules lawyers and not have to worry you can "see" my tank through a micron sized hole.

Funny enough, it's the players with the all-infantry armies that seem to discover the joys of window sniping and insist we "play by the rules".

So, your group locally declares woods to block LOS. And you 'anticipate' others will follow suit.

The big difference is your group inacted a 'house' rule while others are still working w/o house rules.

Possible. However, right now, it makes some of your comparisons with others not very compatible as you are playing with a different parameter of rules.

Stelek wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

Stelek wrote:
Who said you can shoot through area terrain? If you cannot see me, you can't shoot me. You can shoot OVER area terrain, IF you can see me. Has something changed in this regard? I don't see this in the book.

...

Full. Hidden, so you cannot shoot the trukk. Do you play with area terrain that's two inches high or something? What's with the savanna grasslands on your table?

Granted, I do not own a copy of the rules yet, but I read over the cover section in the display copy, and I didn't see anything that exempted area terrain from the true LOS rules.

If I have a flat base with two skinny trees on it, even if the trees are pretty tall, it's not a big stretch to realize that those trunks aren't going to block a lot of line-of-sight.

Again, I don't have a book, and only read the copy at the store, so may have missed something, but it seems that forests, even though they're area terrain, will not block line of sight significantly. Am I wrong here?

I think alot of players (meaning, all but the asshats known as rules lawyers) will simply rule trees provide LOS blockage equal to the tree we agree to before the game.

The reason I say this is, my FLGS uses movable tree terrain just like the GT's do.

Uhhh...if we don't say it's one that we will use for the area terrain to see what it blocks, am I cheating when I move the terrain (built for this purpose!) so my models fit?

Now in your example, sure. I don't play with crappy terrain like that. No offense is intended, I think we're just talking about different things. I can setup the trees so you can't see through them on local terrain, but at GT's they tend to skimp on placing actual trees down--because they get in the way of actual play.

So I hope you understand what I'm getting at--that I anticipate people will play the forests as LOS blocking to a certain height.

Else, all people will want is buildings and hills so they can avoid the rules lawyers and not have to worry you can "see" my tank through a micron sized hole.

Funny enough, it's the players with the all-infantry armies that seem to discover the joys of window sniping and insist we "play by the rules".

Ok Stelek, this is exactly where our disconnect is. This is why I think your Ork army as posted is terrible for 5th and why you think it's the fo-zhizzle.

5th Ed's book specifies how area terrain rules work, and the SPECIFICALLY show an instance of the near ubiquitous "flat pieces of wood in a rough shape with 2-3 movable tree's on it".

It shows a Marine in the Terrain, saying he gets a 4+ Cover save.
It shows a Marine physically outside the terrain, behind one of the nice GW Plastic Tree's and says he's out of LOS.
It shows a Marine between the trees, but OUT of the terrain, behind it, and says that you can shoot him but he gets a 4+ cover save.

In V4, if you were behind that feature with a Trukk or whatever, it had it's LOS blocked. Same for Storm Boyz, etc.

In V5, if the LOS to the model isn't perfectly blocked, you can now be shot and just get a 4+ cover save.

And if your opponent is bringing templates (which I anticipate most good lists will), if you bunch up behind the terrain for your really fast units to get a cover save, you're going to get smoked, 4+ cover isn't that good when you're taking tons of saves.

That's why I said you're full of it when you say you can build an army that's not afraid of the 180 Orks because you can shoot/stop them but are afraid of your smaller count but faster list.

As I see 5th Ed's rules, those Storm Boyz aren't going to last unless you've got a solid Wall/Building/whatever that physically blocks LOS to them as that's what the 5th Ed Rules say. I don't anticipate that the local FLGS or the GW GT's will adopt a house rule similar to your own where Area Terrain works like it does in V4. I am very much anticipating that the stores and most especially the GW GT's will adopt a system that follows the rules in 40k 5th Edition for terrain. I think this is a terrible thing, but I'm pretty sure it's the way things are going to go down.

Now do you understand why I'm saying what I was?

I am with Stelek in regards to his comment that there are no top tier armies. To be honest the ones I see most commonly listed are simply easy to win with. That does not mean they are good.

G

Yes. I understand you misunderstand.

I anticipate you shooting my smaller more mobile units.

Do YOU understand the rules of 5E? I don't think you do.

If I spread my Orks out so you cannot template me, but the MAJORITY of my units are behind cover--gee, I get a 4+ cover save.

I don't have to buy a big mek with a KFF for a lousy 5+ save, do I?

I can just use ONE piece of terrain, get the lead unit cover saves and then hide the rest of my army in leapfrog fashion behind that ONE unit.

ONE piece of terrain = cover saves for my WHOLE army.

You really think there are only forests on the map? There are plenty of hills and buildings as it is now to hide a pair of trukks behind.

You seem to think hiding a marine = hiding a trukk. In the example in the book, you cannot even get a 4+ cover save for vehicles! Yes, that's right, a lamppost does not give a landraider a cover save. You need to have a majority of your hull FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE FIRING UNIT hidden, in order to get a cover save.

Good luck with those matchstick trees. I don't even want to get into the game dragging stupid fests that are 'true LOS'. Windows open? Trees bent? Hills not long enough? Walls too low? Oh I can see you with my 10 lascannons. Yes, all 5 microns of your hull. Die! I win! Yay!

I think there's going to be a lot of pushback over this rule, because any donkey-cave with a laser pointer can "see" your units unless they're a 2 foot x 1 foot building.

Who the hell plays with those?

So be serious.

Btw, my FLGS hasn't adopted anything. I'm playing 5E, they are not.

I guess we'll see what Dave Taylor decides to do.

I hope you "understand" you're arguing the rules lawyer way and I'm arguing the non-donkey-cave way.

No, I don't think you're an donkey-cave. I'm just saying, they want the game to be 'fun, simple, sporting' and put in gakky rules like 'true los' and 'reduce cover saves by 1 if you don't like them'. Freaking stupid crap is what it is.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I am with Stelek in regards to his comment that there are no top tier armies. To be honest the ones I see most commonly listed are simply easy to win with. That does not mean they are good.

G

Going to the doctor, that's twice today I've fallen out of my chair.

If Blackmoor, Darrian, and GBF all agree with me in the same day...the end is nigh!

(This is tongue-in-cheek humor!)

Stelek wrote:Yes. I understand you misunderstand.

I anticipate you shooting my smaller more mobile units.

Do YOU understand the rules of 5E? I don't think you do.

If I spread my Orks out so you cannot template me, but the MAJORITY of my units are behind cover--gee, I get a 4+ cover save.

I don't have to buy a big mek with a KFF for a lousy 5+ save, do I?

I can just use ONE piece of terrain, get the lead unit cover saves and then hide the rest of my army in leapfrog fashion behind that ONE unit.

ONE piece of terrain = cover saves for my WHOLE army.

You really think there are only forests on the map? There are plenty of hills and buildings as it is now to hide a pair of trukks behind.

You seem to think hiding a marine = hiding a trukk. In the example in the book, you cannot even get a 4+ cover save for vehicles! Yes, that's right, a lamppost does not give a landraider a cover save. You need to have a majority of your hull FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE FIRING UNIT hidden, in order to get a cover save.

Good luck with those matchstick trees. I don't even want to get into the game dragging stupid fests that are 'true LOS'. Windows open? Trees bent? Hills not long enough? Walls too low? Oh I can see you with my 10 lascannons. Yes, all 5 microns of your hull. Die! I win! Yay!

I think there's going to be a lot of pushback over this rule, because any donkey-cave with a laser pointer can "see" your units unless they're a 2 foot x 1 foot building.

Who the hell plays with those?

So be serious.

Btw, my FLGS hasn't adopted anything. I'm playing 5E, they are not.

I guess we'll see what Dave Taylor decides to do.

I hope you "understand" you're arguing the rules lawyer way and I'm arguing the non-donkey-cave way.

No, I don't think you're an donkey-cave. I'm just saying, they want the game to be 'fun, simple, sporting' and put in gakky rules like 'true los' and 'reduce cover saves by 1 if you don't like them'. Freaking stupid crap is what it is.

Well fall over off your chair again because I agree.

I think the True LOS and the terrain cover rules are terrible and are going to simply devolve the game into "Who can roll more 4+ cover saves" than who can maneuver and apply force better.

My point is that if you can't be hidden anymore, and many units can maneuver to see you, even if you get a 4+ cover save, most armies now can overload that and wipe you.

You're playing with what you think are the rules that will be "pushed back to". The way you said you were playing the Cover or Terrain is not how it will be in 5th by the ways I've read the rules in the printed book.

I hope you are right. I don't want to play the game that way, but given that they've clearly outlined the rules for 5th to work in the "gak with an overpriced GW laser pointer" way - I see the game playing out differently than your experiences suggest they will.

LOL is there really a GW laser pointer? Oh man. lol

Maybe 5th edition just made certain Ork builds better, but they are still a formidable army.

I still have trouble wrapping my mind around killing 180 orks that are all scoring until you kill every last greenskin, and now they get to run on top of this?

Yes that is the part that sucks.

They can't kill alot of armies, but killing them is...problematic.

I can kill 30 a turn pretty well without focusing on killing all of them, but with possibly only 5 turns...run...cover saves...oh boy!

Sigh. No one is beyond your insults.

Spreading out an army to avoid templates, yet claiming to utelize one piece of terrain to protect the whole army. Intersting dichotomy.

At this point, it will be interesting to see how you really perform at a GT this year with 5th edition. Reading your posts does make some interesting points: you've adapted house rules to your games.

House rules are great, but they are simply that. What the issue appears to be is your tactical/armylist advice is based off, in part, your house rules. If folks don't agree with you, they are some type of knuckledragger. For some strange reason, I expect GW to simply follow the rules in the rulebook, especially since it is the first GT season utelizing the new rules. Lots of cover saves, little in the way of blocking LOS, especially for vehicles. But, maybe GW will build huge amounts of terrain to remedy this, though I doubt it.

How will you adjust to using the LOS rules as written?

Do I need to take a picture to demonstrate, or what?

Or what, will suffice:

Be more polite.

Be more open when reading others posts.

Be less condensending.

Be more willing to accept constructive criticism.

Be more accepting that there is more ways to play the game than the way you play.

Understand you are using house fules for terrain and hoping it will become the standard.

Stop insulting folks, then at the end of your post, place some snippet of, 'well, I'm not really calling you an idiot, but only idiots think like you, or some such nonsense.

Don't feed the troll. He's not funny, interesting, or useful. But the more you respond, the more he will post.

Huh, I actually found myself enjoying this discussion until it got childish...