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Given that you can take a unit of Scoring Jetbikes *and* a Contesting Vyper for each unit of yo-yo Hawks, you just go right ahead and try to win an Objectives game with your non-Scoring Hawks...

JohnHwangDD wrote:Given that you can take a unit of Scoring Jetbikes *and* a Contesting Vyper for each unit of yo-yo Hawks, you just go right ahead and try to win an Objectives game with your non-Scoring Hawks...

The hawks arent trying to grab objectives so much as they're simply keeping the enemy from getting it...at that they excel.

Additionally, the Eldar player with the hawks doesn't need (although that helps) to contest all the objectives. He can still play and try to table his opponent. You don't necessarily need Troops to win the game. It makes winning easier, sure, but in the 5e rules..it says if you eliminate all your opponents models you win as well.

Capt K

Darrian13 wrote:@Johnhwangdd, Objective grabbing only matters from turn 5 on. Reserves come on automatically on turn 5+ so there is no chance of the swoopinghawks not getting deepstrike when I need it.

The fact that all games are variable game length will somewhat mitigate the tactic. Do you go into reserve on turn 5, knowing that the game could end before they hit the ground again? Do they give up KP's if they don't?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Given that you can take a unit of Scoring Jetbikes *and* a Contesting Vyper for each unit of yo-yo Hawks, you just go right ahead and try to win an Objectives game with your non-Scoring Hawks...

This is all academic, but I believe that after pummeling those same objectives every turn with multiple swooping hawk grenades, I don't believe swooping hawks contesting the objectives is going to be much of a problem.

As far as what is the better FA choice, I am still not convinced how vypers are superior.

Lets look at a few key pros and cons.

Vypers can be destroyed easily.

Swooping Hawks can have deepstrike mishaps.

That round goes to swooping hawks. Dying on the odd chance by your own deepstriking is alot safer than having your models being on the table to be shot at. I have a fair amount of experience with this due to playing both lysanderwing or when playing eldar, a unit of each vyper and swooping hawks in my army. Swooping hawks have superior resiliency when rubber hawked.

Vypers can use brightlances and ramming for Anti tank roles

Swooping Hawks must assault a tank to destroy it

This one is close, but due to swooping hawk resiliency, the swooping hawks win this round. Both of these units can be rather good anti tank, but vypers must survive until it can be used that way. Whereas swooping hawks have to deepstrike close to their target on the prior turn.

Vypers can be equipped to serve either an anti tank or anti infantry role

Swooping Hawks are equipped to deal with either anti tank or anti infantry

This is one of the few occasions where eldar have a unit that is good at more than one thing, and because of that, the swooping hawks are the clear winners. Every game swooping hawks are equipped to take care of either tasks, where you must plan ahead with vypers and hope you made the right choice in weapons, and then stick to the role you gave it by making that choice. Swooping hawks have the flexibility.

Those are the most significant points that I can think of right now, but I think it adequately covers it.

Hellfury, your analysis is OK, but you're ignoring the cost differential, which is why I compare a unit of Hawks to a Vyper and a unit of Jetbikes.

Yes, a Vyper can be destroyed more easily than 5 Hawks. But a Vyper *and* 3 Jetbikes are going to be harder to kill than 5 Hawks.

And once you consider that the Hawks are less resilient on a point for point basis, then a lot of your other argument disappears.

For example, you're re-arguing resilience when you discuss anti-tank. But if the same points in a Vyper and Jetbikes are tougher, then clearly, the Hawks are worse.

So on net, point for point, a Vyper and Jetbikes outperform Hawks.

And that's what matters, because 40k is a game with a points limit.

Hellfury wrote:

Vypers can use brightlances and ramming for Anti tank roles

?ramming vypers? nice idea but only tanks can ram.

Good point. You're right. I did forget all about the point differential.

Does points stop people from fully loading out a falcon? Nope. They load that sucker because its just that good.

Same goes for vypers vs. swooping hawks.

Points for points, I am going to get a much better yield on the points I invested on swooping hawks than if I were to play it cheap and use vypers.

If swooping hawks are used basically as a whirlwind (which is what they essentially become) but the opponent cannot shoot back at them, I think it becomes painfully obvious how superior swooping hawks are to vypers.

Tri wrote:

Hellfury wrote:

Vypers can use brightlances and ramming for Anti tank roles

?ramming vypers? nice idea but only tanks can ram.

Ooops! You're right! my bad.

The worst thing about vipers and jetbikes in 5th is that you cannot hide them behind forests. jump-shoot-jump is so much harder. Deepstrike-dropbombs-deepstrike on the other hand is golden.

JohnHwang, you might just want to conceed this thread.

Tri wrote:

Hellfury wrote:

Vypers can use brightlances and ramming for Anti tank roles

?ramming vypers? nice idea but only tanks can ram.

Actually, any vehicle can ram. Tanks are better are ramming, though, because being a tank provides a +1 bonus to the Strength of the ramming hit.

Meh. I only concede that I can't change your opinion any more than you're going to change mine.

MinMax wrote:

Tri wrote:

Hellfury wrote:

Vypers can use brightlances and ramming for Anti tank roles

?ramming vypers? nice idea but only tanks can ram.

Actually, any vehicle can ram. Tanks are better are ramming, though, because being a tank provides a +1 bonus to the Strength of the ramming hit.

Well, this thread has already drifted off topic from how overpowered and broken rubber hawking is concerned...

Possibly, and I agree there is room for debate. It isnt worded very well as it seems that 5th ed is trying to make the distinction between tanks and vehicles. But at the end of the section, it states that you get a +1 if the ramming vehicle is a tank.
(page 69)


etc,etc....

Since ramming is a type of tank shock, and only tanks may tank shock, it would seem that only tanks may ram. But this further confuses the waters by stating the +1 if the ram is from a tank...



Ah well, I am certain this is going to be included in the next YakFAQ. It needs it.

I made a poll in YMDC to continue this line of discussion to divert this thread from straying any further.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/214551.page#330678

Silverwarrior88 wrote:The rules for the grenade pack just say it uses the large blast, and it only rolls 1 D6.

Tyranid codex states the strangler fired using the normal BS, but uses the large blast marker.

Both follow their own rules because it is a special weapon only found in their respected codexs.

I also find it funny that I was talking about this exact same tactic and people made fun of it... now everyone wants to talk about it because of GW??? What's up with that...

Same here... I think it's funny.

Hell if you read the last paragraph it becomes quite clear. Since BOTH vehicles take a hit, However these are at different STR values.

Using Hawks as an invulnerable Whirlwind launcher is definitely a (VERY) useful ability, but their ability to contest objectives is dubious at best IMHO.

Random game length means you don't know when you have to leave them on the board (unless you get all the way up to turn 7, of course).

Then when you factor in that to 'contest' an objective means that you're presumably trying to land within 3" of said objective that already has enemy models around it.

Pretty much any scatter is going to either take the Hawks
more than 3" away from the objective, or worse, onto the nearby enemy unit.

Edit: Ignore me, I'm an idiot. Is there any way to delete a post?

@Yakface, Don't forget that SW's can now run after the deepstrike, so the scatter is not so bad.

Darrian13 wrote:@Yakface, Don't forget that SW's can now run after the deepstrike, so the scatter is not so bad.

Good point, but it is yet another random factor you have to deal with when attempting this maneuver.

I still don't see Hawks as a contesting threat, just a completely annoyance to their opponent as they represent a threat that cannot be dealt with in any way beyond such very rare things as a DH Mystic (and even then the Eldar player doesn't need to land his Hawks anywhere near where he wants to drop the blast so there isn't any reason he should get hit by a Mystic).

Its true that the ability of one unit of hawks to contest an objective is quite dependent on luck [game length, reserve rolls, scatter, fleet roll], but when you use a list with 4 deepstriking hawk units [well 3 + baharroth], this makes for a pretty potent alpha strike on an objective. If you need to drop down on two or more..it would get a lot riskier, but for just one...thats 4 units, one of just one model. That seems pretty decent in terms of stacking odds against bad luck.

One question I had is if your hawks have a deepstrike mishap and get thrown back into reserves, do they still place their template? It might be a bit of stretch, but it seems worth bringing up.

I think this build could potentially be really brutal against a max model ork army, especially at 1k-1.5k. But anything other than that...no thanks Maybe as a laugh

The big thing with them contesting will be the fact that they will do it in non-KP scenarios. So they wont ever be giving up precious KPs, ultimate allround so to speak. And a fair bet to start doing it would be at 4+ for the game to end, if your in that much trouble it might be a worthy "gamble".

@Ibishi, I think the deepstrike mishap happens before the grenade drop, so no grenades when you mishap.

BTW, your record vs China is not very impressive. Is that against the same player or does China have multiple players representing them to play you?

MinMax wrote:

Tri wrote:

Hellfury wrote:

Vypers can use brightlances and ramming for Anti tank roles

?ramming vypers? nice idea but only tanks can ram.

Actually, any vehicle can ram. Tanks are better are ramming, though, because being a tank provides a +1 bonus to the Strength of the ramming hit.

oh god not this again

Q) all rules for tank shock and raming are under which heading? bonuse point for what is said next
A) TANKS! ... tanks follow the normal rules for vehicals, with the following additions and exeptions.

Q) So only tanks can tank shock?
A) No if the vehical in question has its own rule that says it can it can

Q) So a vehical that can tank charge can ram?
A) No these are 2 different types of movement.

Q) Why then is there a strenth bonuse for Tanks?
A) because there is a hit back the other way

please read the rules

Tri wrote:oh god not this again

You do realise that it had already been resolved before you brought it up again?

Why are we talking about vypers now? enough enough!

@ Darrian - My record against China is misleadingly not gaming related. Its just a record of life. Also, in Chinese the letters 5-1-4 are a homonym for "I want to die!" but adding the 8 makes it more of a joke. So its not really a record at all. In terms of real 40k game recording, I stopped counting a long time ago. Its more rewarding just seeing your army getting bigger for free after each tournament

Wait a minute, I'm not showing up just to give you more free stuff at a tourney (recalls) oh yeah, maybe I have been.

Besides, how would you convert Hawks to the Samurai theme anyways?

@Ibishi, That is very reassuring. With the olympics coming up, I am awash in patriotism and anti-China feelings and I did not want to see China extending it's dominance onto the 40K scene. I was ready to volunteer for an impromptu olympic team of 40K players to rush over to Beijing and battle for the gold. USA! USA! USA!

Seriously, those are some of the most beautiful models in your album. Please paint more and post more pics.

@ Sarigar - haha, that tournament was the one I won a real katana I think. Did you see that? I would love to go to the NC State minicon dressed up like a samurai with a real katana..but not before I get given US citizenship. That just seems like a bad idea.

As for the hawks, I don't think I would ever do this, its just a total laugh. And somehow supposed to be oddly effective against several armies!! As a rule I base my armies on the tournament scene though, and without unlimited funds for buying hawks, and unlimited time for making and painting them nicely, this would not be my cup of tea. If someone lent me the army for a few days I would love to try it out though

@ Darrian - thanks for the compliments! I used to only use shining spears because of the models I made too bad they kind of got the shaft in 5th ed. Toooo bad. Its going to be banshees and warlock councils from now on I think :S Did you check out my harlequins though - they are the most recent models I made, even if the pix are so-so.

As for the China thing, the olympics are surely a big deal, but don't get too carried away I assure you there is just as much propaganda in your life that you don't realize as there is over here. China's got the bad rep. thouigh. Its complicated...

To contribute a little more to this thread though, I am still astounded GW actually sanctified this army. Has anyone actually used it for any length of time/ competitively???

Question about the 'power' of the grenade pack....

Sure it's only AP5, but can you screen against it for a cover save if your save is only 5 or weaker?

Where are the hawks? shooting from where they landed or off the board? I think its a valid arguement that this attack CANNOT be screened for a cover save when used during rubber hawk tactics....

When they're off of the board they dont seem to be shooting "thru" any enemy units....

Oh, yeah, FWIW, I've got the models to field 3x 5 Hawks.

Thanks, GW!