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It specifically says that units with Infiltrate that are in a dedicated transport may still Outflank. Exception given.
No exception for non-dedicated transports = no Outflank for you.

stjohn70 wrote:It specifically says that units with Infiltrate that are in a dedicated transport may still Outflank. Exception given.
No exception for non-dedicated transports = no Outflank for you.

Gee, another rule that doesn't exist.

Point taken, you don't get it.

Rule that exists, what do you know...

Pg 94, Outflank, last sentence: "Nother that if such units are picked with their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport..."

Exception given.

Stelek wrote:Nowhere in the entire rulebook will you find a rule that says transports gain infiltrate. Until you do, your entire reverse logic argument completely fails on it's premise.

Ugh.

What you seem to be missing is that that is the only case in which a unit can Outflank. While the Reserves rule says that the transport/unit combo rolls to come in together, that doesn't mean that the unit gets to bring the transport along for the ride when you outflank, because the transport is not made eligible in any stretch of the rules or imagination to outflank!

What I may accept is that you can roll for them together, but the non-Outflanking transport comes in normally, and the unit gets to outflank. That scenario follows the rules just fine, no assumptions made, aside from assuming that the transport in said scenario is non-dedicated.

Stelek wrote:

stjohn70 wrote:It specifically says that units with Infiltrate that are in a dedicated transport may still Outflank. Exception given.
No exception for non-dedicated transports = no Outflank for you.

Gee, another rule that doesn't exist.

Point taken, you don't get it.

The rules are permissive, Stelek. If it doesn't say you can, then you can't.

stjohn70 wrote:Rule that exists, what do you know...

Pg 94, Outflank, last sentence: "Nother that if such units are picked with their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport..."

Exception given.

Gee, then there's another rule that says they can't infiltrate.

Sorry, which is it?

There is an exception provided that directly contradicts the rule you just quoted.

I've mentioned the MAY part of that, and quoted the rules stating there is clearly a issue.

But let's gloss over that--the point is, you want to be right.

What do you know.

Gee the rules are permissive?

You mean the ones I've been quoting that are explicitly allowing this?

It does say you can.

I wonder when the eyes will open up and the mouths will shut.

Never I guess.

Stelek wrote:Gee the rules are permissive?

You mean the ones I've been quoting that are explicitly allowing this?

It does say you can.

I wonder when the eyes will open up and the mouths will shut.

Never I guess.

Stelek wrote:Read the actual reserve rules.

Infiltrate rules and the reserve rules are all that matter.

Infiltrate allows you to infiltrate unless you have a transport. In which case you may move in from reserve (see next sentence).

Nowhere in the reserve rules does it say you must HAVE a dedicated transport--only that if you do, you MUST move on the board in it. OR it must come in "empty" but that's not really relevant here.

Since I can outflank in a transport (infiltrate says so), I do not have a dedicated transport (I didn't buy one), and I can put myself into a land raider (and since it isn't a IC without infiltrate, my infiltrating unit doesn't lose infiltrate) in reserve....then I can outflank in my transport (rolled all together) and the rules say I can.

Follow?

If this is the rule you are talking about, then I have no idea why you keep going on about it. You can NOT Outflank in the transport, because the transport itself can NOT outflank. Yes, your infiltrating unit doesn't lose infiltrate. Yes, you can roll for them together while in reserves. But under no stretch of the rules can you deploy the Transport, with or without troops inside, via outflank! You are correct when you say there is a flaw in the rules, but you're trying to fill this rules void with a long chain of assumptions that, to me at least, don't seem to add up. If this isn't the rule you are talking about, please, please at least give me a post # so we can stop biting at each other over the rule that is a mystery to me.

Rule Overview:

The person in question is attempting to take a unit with infiltrate, give them a dedicated transport and then use their infiltrate special rule to outflank.

Infiltrate rules state specifically that "if a unit with this ability is deployed inside a transport vehicle, it cannot infiltrate (pg 75)."

The reserves rule says they arrive together under one roll. Then the unit is deployed once it is successfully rolled for. The rule says they are deployed. So you would technically deploy the unit, and since they cannot deploy inside a transport and still have the infiltrate special rule, they lose it. You cannot skirt by this rule saying that it doesn't say everything specifically because that is also illegal, because in the second paragraph of the 'Prepearing Reserves' section (pg 94) "the player must clearly explain the organization of his reserves to the opponent," meaning you cannot declare the unit is infiltrating and then declare they are in a transport, as that is the only way you could theoretically get by the rule.

Further, the only unit that can deploy in a transport by outflanking is a unit with the scouts special rule, because they confer there ability to any dedicated transport.

Eclipse, I appreciate the input, but the discussion here is over a non-dedicated transport. Anything you have on that that isn't on the table already?

Lol, and you saying we're wrong just because you want to be right isn't any better.

Loop this:

Rules state that only units that can Infiltrate/Scout can use Outflank.
pg 94, Outflank, 1st sentence: "During deployment, players may declare that units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy"

Rules state that dedicated transports of Infiltrate/Scout units can use Outflank. (prev quoted)
Pg 94, Outflank, last sentence: "Nother that if such units are picked with their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport..."

Aha, but you argue the general Reserves rule.
pg 94, Preparing Reserves, 3rd par, 2nd sentence: "... the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together."

Except that :
The Outflank rules are more specific than Reserves, it is a more specialized form of Reserves. So the specific over-rules the general.


Until you show that a non-dedicated transport can make use of the Outflank (something you have repeatedly failed to do), then your argument is moot.

We have nothing but hatred now!

I have repeatedly shown how it can use it.

You just ignore it, buddy.

Sorry, I realized what i said became moot after I wrote it and was reading the post. BUt when reread, then I dont see how there is an argument. If a unit with infiltrate is deployed in a transport (because the reserves rule says it counts as being deployed, if you are looking for specific wording), they lose it, because you declare they're in a transport, they lose the ability, and then you cannot declare they are infiltrating. The reserves rules are sequential to prevent this (one of the peragraphs starts with first, meaning sequential)

Eclipse, please show me where in the reserves rules it says you deploy the unit with infiltrate inside the transport.

That is the crux of the matter.

pg 94, 'Rolling for Reserves' second paragraph. This paragraph states that any units coming in from reserves counts as being deployed as the player deploys it. In fact the words arrive and deploy become synonymous as they are switched between to show the unit gettin gonto the board from reserves, thus a unit cannot 'arrive' in a transport or deploy and infiltrate

Stelek wrote:
"WHEN AN OUTFLANKING UNIT ARRIVES FROM RESERVE..."

I think that is the relevant rules quote....

Land Raider and Chosen are two different units.

Chosen is a unit that has infiltrate and thus can choose to outflank

Land Raider is NOT a unit that can infiltrate and thus choose to outflank.

The other relevant rules quotes are:

Arriving from reserve.... (which assumes a normal reserve movement). Move on from your own table edge unless ouflanking or deep striking

From Outflank....

Players may declare that units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy.

Again Land Raider attaches to Chosen squad. They are two different units. One with the ability to outflank the other without it. They built an exception to the multi-unit rule into the Outflank section and it has to do with Dedicated Transports. The Land Raider does not qualify for this exception and thus does not "gain" the ability to Outflank.

Wow. Still arguing the point.

Basic premise, Stelek, is that you've magically concluded the Land Raider has the ability to Outflank. Only units with infiltrate or scout has this ability as per the first sentence in Outflank.

1. Page 3 defines unit: Is a Land Raider a unit? yes
2. Outflank: units with Infiltrate or Scout may attempt to Outflank: Does the unit in question (Land Raider) have Infiltrate or Scout? No.
3. Dedicated Transports for units that can outflank may also outflank, but the unit must be embarked in the dedicated transport: Is the Land Raider a dedicated transport? No
Result: Can't outflank. The Land Raider can be held in Reserve which has never been questioned.

But, go ahead and take this kind of armylist to a tourney and convince the judges what you claim is a legal move. Be sure to bring popcorn for the bystanders.

I'd like to bring this to everyone's attention, maybe it'll help clear things up.

Page 93, third paragrah down.

"If deploying using the outflank rule whether it be in a dedicated transport or not, when your opponent is Daggermaw, you lose."

This has got to be the most ridiculous argument ever. Does anyone here actually play against stelak? If you do i can understand why you'd be arguing this, but if you don't and i'm pretty sure most of you don't, why are you wasting your time?

Daggermaw wrote:Does anyone here actually play against stelak?

That would be me.

That would be me.

I pity you.

I'm not a rules lawyer, and i usually only post in P&M. But stelak's argument while somewhat solid seems like a loose interpretation of the rules. Similar to say how certain districts in the US have said that the 2nd amendment only applies to the military and state militias and not the private citizen. Until the Supreme Court finally ruled saying that it applies to private citizens in defense of their home.

He recognizes that there's a flaw in the rules, and even states it. Then he goes on to exploit that flaw to his own benefit.

Also his short, untactful answers don't seem to be winning over any audience.

and i'm still not convinced he's broken it down enough in a step by step manner to convince anyone that he's right.

stelak you lost like a whole page ago chosen are crap anyway 12 points more get termies

I am on the road and do not have the book in front of me, but if Stelek has quoted the rules accurately, then he has debunked his own argument.

This is worse than the "fleet let's me run and assault after exiting a moving closed topped vehicle" argument, and it fails for the same reasons.

Stelek - you show where the rules provide a specific exception that allows a unit with either the "infiltrate" or "scout" USR to empart the "outflank" reserves deployment option to a dedicated transport. What you have failed to do is provide any viable logical argument as to why you should be able to extend this to a Heavy Support choice that has a transport capability.

Just because you quote all the rules does not mean that your position is correct. Your position has been gained by inductive reasoning, NOT deductive reasoning. That in and of its self does not make your argument useless, but inductive arguments do rely on some amount of supposition (which you have clearly done). I would say, however; that given the available evidence provided by the group (including yourself) that there is conclusive logic within the RAW to disallow your proposed deployment.

And what we all forget is that if the chosen and the daemons arrive on the same turn, then the daemons all die because there's no icons on the board at the start of the turn... units with icons that arrive on the same turn can't use them for focus for deepstriking, unfortunately. The plaguemarines could do it, but they'd be way in the back.

Not to mention that you're likely to arrive piecemeal with chosen, which if they kill units in assault, then get gunned down. I don't think this list would do well, cheating gimmick or no.

Double posting makes me a sad panda.

yamato wrote:I am on the road and do not have the book in front of me...

Nice to know you've got your priorities straight. "Sorry, can't pay attention to the road, posting in this hot thread!" Almost as good as Angron's sculpting while he drives.

well, I didn't mean "posting from my blackberry while driving." I am just out of town in a hotel.

Thread summary:

Forums: 1
Stelek: 0

Bro Captain wrote:Thread summary:

Forums: 1
Stelek: 0

And Welcome to the wonderful world of posting!

Hmmm a most amusing thread.

Going by the summary...so it's:

Stelek: 5000
Forums: 2

Neat, I'm not doing so bad then.

This was a nice critical thinking class, of which only Daggermaw passed. I too failed, but I'm ok with that given how many other fails there are in this thread.

But hey at least I only got insulted 3 or 4 times, and the thread didn't get locked after the first page--so we're improving!