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I agree. You can't create a major weakness in the army and then immediately give them an upgrade that completely negates that weakness.

BYE

A couple ideas...

Well I think a smaller vehicle than the monolith. The monument? Idk... but it could come in two variants a dedicated transport and a dedicated tank of sorts with downsized monolith weapons.

I think WBB could be simplified down to just ignoring a number of wounds each turn... like d6 or d3.

Phase out shouldn't be a matter of the army just vanishing after incurring a high number of losses, rather in situations where in other armies a unit would fall back or flee the field the individual necron unit instead phases out.

aka_mythos wrote:A couple ideas...

Well I think a smaller vehicle than the monolith. The monument? Idk... but it could come in two variants a dedicated transport and a dedicated tank of sorts with downsized monolith weapons.

I think WBB could be simplified down to just ignoring a number of wounds each turn... like d6 or d3.

Phase out shouldn't be a matter of the army just vanishing after incurring a high number of losses, rather in situations where in other armies a unit would fall back or flee the field the individual necron unit instead phases out.

Like the Idea about smaller monoliths

WBB is fine, it should stay as is. Ignoring d6 or d3 wounds wouldn't work. With different squad sizes, that would be a horrendous nerf.

Now for my ideas.

More variety. Give every unit benefits, kind of like the ork codex. Reading through that thing i saw every unit as a possibility.

Lords - More options, perhaps options that will influence the way the rest of the army is built up, Kind of like Big meks and warbosses.

Flayed Ones - Rending, Also T5, Make them a troops option.

Pariahs - Count as crons (Or a 2+ save, or an Invunerable save or all of them, they need to be more survivable), more attacks, keep the points. At least give them some way to close in combat much quicker (Deep Strike Maybe?)

Immortals - T6, Maybe increase the strength of their guns aswell. Slow and purposeful

Warriors - make them cheaper than flayed ones and give them slow and purposeful. I'm all for lowering WS, i agree that they shouldn't be as good in combat as space marines.

Wraiths - Pretty good as is, but need more close combat punch, power weapons would be nice, failing that, rending.

Destroyers - Good

Scarab Swarms - Good

Heavy destroyers - Longer range on heavy gauss cannons, 48" would be nice. Also it's described that these are weapons that can puncture through both of a land raiders walls. Make them S10 AP1 Heavy 1

Tomb Spyders - Making them necrons, give us a reason to take them.

The Monolith - Good, okay maybe a tad too powerful , but aren't they supposed to be? Perhaps reduce gauss flux arcs, make them a normal weapon, Ie S6 AP4? (Is that the same as before? whatever AP they are now) Heavy 3, But get to individually target units. LOS is traced from each gun.

SPECIAL RULES:

Keep WBB, It's characterful and still Works fine.

Phase Out - I absolutely hate it in its current form. Maybe because i'm a necron player, but playing against crons i feel pretty cheap forcing a phase out victory. Perhaps change it to: If a Necron Unit is falling back and at any time cannot regroup for the usual reasons (Close Enemy, Under 50%) They instead phase out, disappearing into the ether.

Maybe thats better than phase out maybe it's worse, just a thought.

Gauss Weapons - The main controversy about Gauss Weapons is the fact that you can no longer destroy vehicles with glancing hits. Well the obvious remedy to this is to make this happen again. Keep them the same, except when rolling on the vehicle damage table, add 1 to the roll. Hey presto necrons are efficient again.

My 2 cents

On the concept of new Necron vehicles:

Necron Ark: F13 S13 R13
Type: Skimmer
Crew: None
Weapons: Twin-linked Gauss Blaster

Living Metal; Pondourous; Deep Strike

Units held in reserve may come into play as if disembarking this vehicle.

Units that embark a Monolith or phase out due to a monoliths power matrix may disembark out of this vehicle.


Necron Cenotaph:
F13 S13 R13
Type: Skimmer
Crew: None
Weapons: Gauss Flux Conduit (Gauss Flux Arc but Heavy d3 shots/enemy unit)

Living Metal; Pondourous; Deep Strike

Instead of a normal movement this vehicle may phase out and immediately deep strike.

Gazzdag wrote:Keep WBB, It's characterful and still Works fine.

It's clunky and completely unnecessary when FNP does the same job in a quicker and more elegant fashion.

BYE

FNP is a good change - it gets updated often (relative), makes Necrons easier to pick up for newbies, and fluff wise is works because of the living metal part (necrons have a tendancy to just heal their wounds immediately). Could also then be given to other parts of the army that don't get the WWB (becuase they die and stay dead) becuase they're still made of living metal, and thusa regenerate. Could then make other necron infantry (that currently don't have WWB) more viable/survivable.

@mythos; i like the cenotaph idea, particularily the teleprt part, not sure about the ark.

Pariahs, i can think of two good options;
Keep them as a squad and give them a 2+ save, +1A and a teleport option (maybe deep strike).
Or have them as a HQ choice or elite (like the assassins). Focus on their 'scare' rules.

I like the idea of 'implacable.' I agree with the necrons not running; i picture them as simply being unstoppable; they'll keep on walkng towards you no matter what, i don't picture them rushing anywhere.
I also like the idea of them firing on the move - maybe they should be able to fire rapid fire weapons on the move (I don't think the Relentless rule would work; They make keep walking but i'd like to see someone man sized (even if not human (or alive)) carry a lascannon and aim it while walking).

Wraiths should probly get power weapons and an extra wound.

I'm not sure about moving the flayed ones to troops, as I think that warriors should still be the core of a Necron army; maybe they could be troops, but warriors could be 1+. They should probably get rending (nice idea), but if they shouldn't be a T5 Troop choice!

Make heavy destroyers AP1 (if they aren't already; i doing this from memory at the moment), but leave them as they are. They can already destroy LRs (although AP1 would help ALOT), and because of their manouverability they have a large effective range as it is.

People moan about not being able to destroy LRs with glancing hits, but they can still do far more to LRs than mots races Heavy Support choices can do. They can stop it from moving or firing (possibly permanently); that's good. I like the Ld rule about how 'enemy units wounded by a gauss weapon must always make a morale check even if they did not suffer 25% casualties that turn. Units that did suffer 25% casualties that turn take the morale check at -1 leadership.'

I think the phase-out rule should stay, wiht it including all models in the necrons army. It gives those armies that cannot destroy demi-gods and monoliths a chance. Its that rule that allows necrons to have gods in their army list; do you see any other armies with 20foot shades of death?

PS. @sketchbook; WHAT WERE YOU THINKING! A S5 AP3 gun Assault2? In the hands of TROOPS!!!!! lol

I think FNP is a good alternative accomplishes the same thing with a lot less hassle.

I think the phase out rules can be aggravating; its so drastically changes the game for necrons relative to other armies. It however does add alot of character so I don't want to see it go just change which is why I think it should be dealt with unit to unit and not army wide. Make it their own unique moral fall back method rather than a big "you lose" button. Just make individual units phase out when they reach 25% models.

On Flayed ones as troops I think an approach similar to IG stormtroopers and grenadiers is appropriate; take infiltrate and deep strike out make them an upgrade, Flayed ones without the upgrades are troops, ones with are Elite. You do that and I think its fair for them to be troops.

I would think that unit-by-unit phase-out is better, if it wasn't for Nightbringer&co. As it is, while they are ridiculously tough/strong/deadly, you can ignore them(as much as you can ignore a 20foot tall avatar of death) and focus on the rest of the army.
If the total models counted then I think that it would be OK. Maybe change it to 80% killed for phase-out.

Why is everyone so obsessed with rending...it's like the magical cure for everything. Oh, wraiths ain't so good...hey here's an idea, give them rending! Oh, what about flayed ones, they aren't that hard hitting for a melee unit why not give them rending?
And necron warriors? rending!
...

Why not giving flayed ones 3 or 4 attacks without rending, more of a troop killer than a meq killer (let alone tanks)

I like many of these ideas here, especially the not going to ground one. I don't like the idea that a universal special rule (run) get exceptions already...

Greets
Schepp himself

I'd like to see Living Metal simplified. Its current implementation is to individually negate a bunch of different special rules. That's clunky and hits some armies much harder than others. Change to something straightforward like an invulnerable save and you get a rule that anyone can remember off the top of their heads and affects railguns and brightlances equally.

Forgive the length, trying to put all the responses and ideas in at once...

Stats and rules -

Several people have said lower the WS for warriors, I disagree. Yeah, they're as good as space marines. Since they've supposedly had much much longer to get that way, I see it as quite justifiable. Besides, as long as it's WBB instead of FNP, you're space marines are better in CC anyhow, as Marines go 1st, meaning there's less warriors to attack with. Heck with I2, even guard are going first.

I'd also heard mention of lowering the Toughness, again, not agreeing. The armies main point is that they're supposed to be super tough, and hard to put down and keep that way. It's classic for undead and robots, making them easier to drop doesn't feel right. They're made of metal, and are self regenerating. Sounds pretty tough to me. Besides, what's wrong with having something that isn't a marine being as tough as one on the base troops?

WBB, I'm okay with it, needs better wording so there isn't so much confusion out there. Course, with the brutal way combat resolution is going, I do feel a little bit of a pull to FNP, either that, or Stubborn/fearless. Or if you like, give them FNP, and then a toned down WBB, say 6+, with the res orb making sure they get both. I'd just like to try to keep it from being just another flavor of nurgle marines, If it's too much like that, then you lose the flavor, and may as well just play CSM.

Fearless - Hmm, well, all the daemons are fearless, with mob rule orks are pretty much fearless, synapse pretty much lets Nids at least start fearless, chaos has an awful lot of fearless, grey knights are fearless (I actually play against them fairly often), several variants of space marines seem to have ways to be fearless, I don't see why space undead shouldn't be fearless. If you think that they should have a good idea of when to retreat, well if you aren't in CC, just pull them back on your turn (necrons aren't noted for being fast), if they are in CC, give them the battle tactics the SM are getting. (You'd figure that after a couple million years they'd figure out how to withdraw...)

I do like the implacable rule someone suggested.

Gauss, as is, but give it an additional +1 on the vehicle damage chart, so it's still possible to take out a vehicle. BTW, I looked in the codex, while it's not perfectly clear, it does look more like a regular destroyer, not a heavy, thats blowing through both sides of that land raider. If you look at the gun on it, the lights where the tubes would be are stacked on top of each other, not in-line. Being able to take out the heaviest vehicles with troops is something most armies have/had (not necessarily all troop selections, but still there).

Disruption fields - same as gauss, give it the additional +1 on the vehicle damage chart. I'm not for making it give the unit rending or some such, as that might be a bit overkill. Honestly though, I wouldn't object to it going away. I only ever use it on swarms, and on rare occasion flayed ones.

Phase out - how about 10% of Necrons, or 20% of what you bring.

Technology -

As for the superweapon mentioned earlier (the rng 18 S5 AP3 one mentioned), how about instead we give them a range 12, AP2, wounds on a 2+, instant death on a wound roll of 6, assault 1, autoglances on a 3-4, auto penetrates on a 5-6? No? Uh, eldar can have that on troops, with a much better statline to boost. Mind you, wraithguard are 35pts each, you need 10 and a spiritseer to make it a troop choice, which gets expensive, but yeah, sort of puts the above mentioned S5 AP3 into a better light. I'd be ok with S3 AP3, or S4 AP4, keep it assault 2, range 18, necrons are, after all, a mid range shooting army.

Units -

First - I'm not messing with points, I'm hoping that someone in GW with more experience than I will be better at balancing those out, or finding someone who can.

Wouldn't mind a few more vehicles, and a couple fliers for apocalypse. Forgeworld does seem to be a bit biased toward the imperium...

Monolith - I understand both sides of the debate, and am hesitant to get in the middle of this one, so just a few concerns. First, if you change WBB to FNP, something is going to need to be modified concerning the portal allowing another chance. Does it then grant WBB, or is there to be something else to replace that function. Second, FAQ's giveth, and they taketh away - used to be that you could move the monolith, then pull a unit through and treat it as if they came out of a stationary vehicle for movement and assault purposes, new faq disallows. Would be great if that were clarified once and for all. Third, living metal. I'm okay with all of it except for the thought that someone with a electrified gauntlet can come up and do, with a punch, what an anti-tank weapon can't with a direct hit. I've had the same problem with a Landraider or any vehicle for that matter. (Anti-tank missiles, nah. We'll just punch the tank, that'll do it.) C'mon people, just because it's a wrecking ball doesn't mean you can swing it, and if you can carry it and swing it, you could probably do just as much damage without it. Last - how about using the monolith to be able to bring in anything from reserves, rather than just warriors?

Tomb spyders - well, I'm going to have to spend the money before the new codex to get 9 of them. I want to try out a list I'd been playing with before they get changed (if they do). But for the new codex, 2 different varieties, one like it is, maybe 4 attacks, WS 3 instead of 2, and an extra wound for a CC type, for a ranges BS3, a heavy flamer, and a gauss cannon. Don't mind losing the swarm production, though with the new rules on majority toughness, it does make them a bit more survivable, wouldn't mind seeing an exception to the majority toughness for them, so that they dont lose their toughness if they make more than one swarm at a time.

Heavy destroyers - pretty much ok as is. Gauss is redundant on a STR 9 weapon, considering how advanced the necrons are supposed to be, I'd say make it S10, AP1, same range, heavy 1. But that's just me.

Destroyers - Considering the range and speed of these, I'm hesitant to improve the AP or the S of the cannon. Keep everything about them as is.

Wraiths - 3 basic choices, either A) leave as is but increase the unit size. B) Keep smaller units and add in power weapons. C) small increase to unit size, add in rending. The way wraiths are right now they're good at taking out small units of weak armor saves, or tying up nasty CC units if you bring a couple units along. But they aren't taking down anything nasty, and they aren't taking out a horde, not even over several rounds. Death by armor save only works well in CC if you can throw out enough wounds that it will statistically take out half the unit, when you start getting to 4+ hit and 3+ saves, that's hard with only 12 attacks on the assault. Otherwise, hit and run would be nice, and in line with some of what I've seen them do in the few novels I've read that they show up in. But please, PLEASE, make them 40 pts, or give them a slight boost and make them 45. 41 is just such a pain to work with when you can't take enough to make it an even multiple of 5.

Scarabs - Pretty much ok as is.

Warriors - well, see the above note about the weaponry, and FNP and fearless discussions. But statwise, they're good.

Flayed ones - Alright, problem. Not with the stat line, (wouldn't mind another attack though, or some way to ignore armor) infiltrate or DS. No problem with the move through cover or Necron rule. Problem is with terrifying visage. It's very fluffy, but with the prevelance of fearless, or some other way to automatically pass leadership or morale tests, and high leadership values out there, typically it's only really usefull against units that you don't really need the help against anyhow. Take out the last sentence under Terrifying Visage, and it would be fine (Just because your fearless doesn't mean you don't pause in disgust, or confusion as you recognize Fred's face draped around the torso of your opponent. Troops or not, either way is fine, making them so would free up more space in elites for something interesting.

Immortals - All good, but the weapon might use a slight upgrade. One of the optional firing type perhaps, normal as is, then an upgraded, rng 18-24, str 8, ap 2, Heavy 1 perhaps? Whole unit fires the same way, but this gives a bit more versatility to the unit, and the army, adds in some much needed AP, without sacrificing the ability to put a lot of firepower downrange if you need it. It also doesn't quite go overboard by making the weapon S5 AP3, and just wiping out Marine squads too easily.

Pariahs - Too expensive for something that isn't harder to get rid of, and doesn't get back up, I'm not sure a full squad really is as usefull as 20 warriors, or nightbringer. FNP works well, I'm not sure I'm in favor of a 2+ armor and 5+ invulnerable. Don't want to clone terminators here. (Wouldn't complaign, but then, I use these guys already, partly for the confusion factor. Get a lot of people wondering what they are when I put them on the table, they've never seen em before.) The soulless is nice, but I pretty much have the same problem as I do with the wraiths Terrifying Visage - so many fearless things out there, it's often a non-issue. It has it's uses, but not much help in CC with anything that your opponent is ok with being in CC in the first place. I'm personally of the opinion that it should 'disable' fearless, but then I'm partial to them. An extra attack would also be nice.

Lords - Well, I admit to liking the different tiers of lord, potentially special characters. Doesn't work so well with the fluff, but it would be nice to have a few more HQ options. Would like a bit more look at some of the wargear, some if gets a lot of use, some of it very little. Not that the stuff that isn't used often isn't usefull, but not nearly as much as others. Some of it would need rework as well if it becomes FNP instead of WBB, lightning field for instance would be nerfed a bit as you have less necrons falling.

I'm mixed about the C'tan becoming apocalypse only, but if they do, would like to see them get significantly boosted. Not that many more points till you start hitting the superheavy range...

If the phase-out rule goes, they should definately become apoc - otherwise the enemy will be stuck trying to kill a god (or two!)

Reading the Tomb Kings book the other night. Adapting their idea would be one fix.

Phase out:
Destruction of a Necron Lord results in Necrons beginning to phase out.
-Destruction of a Lord requires immediate Ld check for each Necron unit. Every unit that fails immediately loses d3 models.
-Repeat these Ld checks for each Necron unit at the beginning of all subsequent Necron (the one who lost a Lord) turns. Remove affected models before any other.
-Loss of a 2nd Lord accelerates the phase out to d6 (immediate plus beginning of the Necron player's turn)

That would make every game involving Necrons turn into a 'how quickly can I kill his Lords' game.

Does anyone want to base all their strategies around keeping their Lords alive? Moreoever, with these rules you'd basically have to bring 2 Lords to every game to ensure that phase out is harder for your opponent.

BYE

How did I miss this thread, ugh.

We will be back

When a necron unit is destroyed it may make a roll on a 4+ the unit may be placed in reserve. It may then be deployed using the reserve special rules for that battle.


Phase Out

When a Necron squad is reduced to 25% of it's original size it phases out and is removed from the table. The squad is considered destroyed for victory point purposes. It may make a We will be back roll.


All Necron models have Feel No Pain, Stubborn.


Gauss
I would change this to Rending on a 6+.


Honestly the army is completely bland in most aspects and really does not have a "special" flavor such as marines, eldar, orks. They're suppose to be unstoppable unfeeling caring machines that want to eradicate all life from the worlds they consider theirs. Giving the army the ability to keep coming after you unstopping and caring creates a real menace as well as a clear strategy when fighting against the army.


Yes, you have a 50/50 chance of bringing back a unit; it's still a 50/50 chance. It's not something you want to make your strategy around but it is something nice to have. It also allows actual flavor to the army instead of having to keep track of what models are down measuring distances etc.. you make one roll.


Necron Lords could have the ability to reroll once per game the We will be back roll of any unit.


I would definitely make the monolith stand out more, sure its a big giant pyramid that deepstrikes blah blah blah blah. It's just unintersting to have one strategy to an army.

Allow for the fact to start off with a "base" monolith, then have upgrades to it.

1 upgrade allows you to deepstrike, one allows X weapon, one allows Y. Let the player be able to choose how to use this. Make it a Icon Make it so that you would see one of these in a army.

Shut down Psychics, not give the lord special abilities to cast Psychic Abilities , but give them something that allows them to nullify psychics. Flat out. Make them the anti-psyker army.

If you are going to make the army few in number and few in unit choices make those units strong.


Pretty much every army has a "power" squad. One that does not allow saves in close combat, marines have multiple types, orks have nobs, Eldar etc. etc.. let the necrons have a power squad.

H.B.M.C. wrote:That would make every game involving Necrons turn into a 'how quickly can I kill his Lords' game.

Does anyone want to base all their strategies around keeping their Lords alive? Moreoever, with these rules you'd basically have to bring 2 Lords to every game to ensure that phase out is harder for your opponent.

BYE

Similar concept seems to work for Tomb Kings.

Warhammer ain't 40K.

BYE

Instead of tiers of necron lords how about lords that held different positions. It holds with the fluff in the new 40k rulebook...u could have a warrior lord, a gatherer lord and a repair lord. Names could obviously be improved but instead of just being better they could confer a bonus to your units. For example a warrior lord could be given more weapon options (along with his retinue). A repair lord could confer WBB rolls with his orb if a unit has a line of sight to his target at +1 pt or something per model that is a necron. The gatherer lord could allow the outflank ability to certain units...ie increased mobility for the army. Obviously most of these benefits are points based per unit (except the warrior lord who just costs more for his own benefits). Only 1 per army so you have to choose which one you prefer.The other HQ choice could be a normal Lord. Just an idea. What do you reckon?

I recon 4 or more max squads of rapid firing rending warriors would make most people here change their minds about what's fair to give Necrons.

And 48" S10, AP1, Heavy 1 for Heavy Destroyers? Yeesh. Lets see.. SM can get 48", S10, or AP1 but not 48" at S10, AP1.(except possibly that stupid Conversion Beamer) Same with Guard. Same with Nids. Doubt Eldar can get it either... If you want to come back to balance and reality try S8, Ap1, or S9 AP2.

Given what you're suggesting, how would you feel if a SM Army that takes only Tactical Marines, and Attack Bike squads have rending bolters, FNP, Without Number on a 4+, and may take double size Attack Bike Squadrons all with a 48" range no blast AP1 Heavy1 Demolisher cannon.