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Blank wrote: I hate my life

Fixed your typo

Highly accurate, as he does live in Jersey.

It's younger players just trying to get into the hobby that I feel sorry for. When I first started a tactical squad was 4.99 (in UK) which was lucky as I got 5.00 pocket money.Now a tactical squad is 18.00...not many kids get 18.00 a week surely?

obithius wrote:It's younger players just trying to get into the hobby that I feel sorry for. When I first started a tactical squad was 4.99 (in UK) which was lucky as I got 5.00 pocket money.Now a tactical squad is 18.00...not many kids get 18.00 a week surely?

They probably get given stuff for birthday and Christmas, too.

Your basic point is correct, though. The entry cost has become quite high. You need a rulebook and a codex before buying any models.

GW games aren't for kids with limited income. They're for adults with a *lot* of disposable income who want to have fun like kids.

GW games aren't for kids with limited income. They're for adults with a *lot* of disposable income who want to have fun like kids.



john, your making yourself sound old.
we were all kids at some point
and GW was fair ........ at some point.

JD21290 wrote:GW games aren't for kids with limited income. They're for adults with a *lot* of disposable income who want to have fun like kids.



john, your making yourself sound old.
we were all kids at some point
and GW was fair ........ at some point.

hey! there's nothing wrong with being old. I was once a kid and had to save and scrimp for every model I had. But as an adult, my disposable income is far greater than anything I had when I was a kid. GW has stated before that the game is not for those with limited fundage. It's for those with disposable income.

And as for fair, I think the new starter sets are far better than the older starter sets. for 60 dollars now you get an enormous amount of stuff, where before, starter sets ran 75 dollars and had hardly anything in them.. Of course the big rule book was included in the 3rd edition games but that was hardly worth the effort. The new smaller rules books and loads of models is definately a great deal for a start point.

JD21290 wrote:doc, carlings on £1.90 a pint here
and stella's a massive £2.10

and as for price i just buy off of ebay for atleast 20% off

I wouldn't trust any bew bought off ebay. Regardless of the discount. It just doesn't seem right.

lol, im getting old
or maybe alot of smoking an drinking is making me age faster.
i still think they should do a price drop at some point, if kids dont get intrested in it then they lose generations of proffit

and the new AoBR set shows how cheap they can knock models out and still make a killing.


the guy i buy from is an independant retailer from yorkshire, his models are xact, checked alot of times
and i only get 20% off instead of 10% as im a valued customer

if your tlking abou beer prices thats not from ebay
just saw how i typed that up.
thats the price in my local

JD21290 wrote:and the new AoBR set shows how cheap they can knock models out and still make a killing.

the guy i buy from is an independant retailer from yorkshire, his models are xact, checked alot of times
and i only get 20% off instead of 10% as im a valued customer

AoBR is likely sold "at cost", just to get people into the game.

If you're buying from a Yorkshireman, then of course your prices are low due to his low overhead costs. I mean, the sheet covering the hole that serves as his store can't be costing him much to pass on, nor his daily mouthful of gravel...

I've given away figs--including 2nd and 3rd ed. figs--to young new players to get 'em started (did that most recently when the Eldar Codex came out. Gave a kid about 1000-1250 points of Eldar. Only condition was that he couldn't throw the figs out, he had to pass them on to someone else if/when he was done with them).

Clubs and events can help offset costs for new players as well, as can playing smaller point games.

GW has always been expensive, but it didn't feel expensive in the days of 2nd ed., because it was more skirmishy and you needed fewer figs.

Gw today is both more and less expensive. Some of the plastic boxed sets are really quite cheap on a figure-by-figure basis (Cadians, LOTR Wood Elves, Dwarves, etc.). Other figs are horrifyingly expensive, even when compared to Wargames Foundry (who's prices are often laughable), Infinity's etc.

The other piece that makes them expensive is the 'gotta have the new stuff' mentality. I may already have a complete space marines army, but I'm going to get new figs when they come out, because they're NEW! And SHINY!

The real questions are:
1. Do you enjoy playing GW games?
2. Do you enjoy modeling/painting GW figures?
3. Do you feel the need to update your army every time or are you happy/content with figures you already own?

JohnHwangDD wrote:GW games aren't for kids with limited income. They're for adults with a *lot* of disposable income who want to have fun like kids.

Mr HwangDD, you were arguing some time since that the majority of GW's sales go to the kids, not the vets, and that's why the vets' complaints go unanswered.

AoBR is likely sold "at cost", just to get people into the game.

john, lets be honest, how much would it cost to make the moulds for the box?
how much is plastic these days?
and the rule book is very cheap to make.

they will make alot from this, not only with beginners, but for people adding to a current army, might even get people into a new army.
and plenty of people are buying 2+ boxes for the models.

If you're buying from a Yorkshireman, then of course your prices are low due to his low overhead costs. I mean, the sheet covering the hole that serves as his store can't be costing him much to pass on, nor his daily mouthful of gravel...

i dont care if he lives in a box, its cheap, and his post is next day, and he has everything i need for any army

Kilkrazy wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:GW games aren't for kids with limited income. They're for adults with a *lot* of disposable income who want to have fun like kids.

Mr HwangDD, you were arguing some time since that the majority of GW's sales go to the kids, not the vets, and that's why the vets' complaints go unanswered.

From a numbers of players standpoint, GW sells to a lot of kids getting in. But they don't stay in. GW collects a cookie from each of them and moves on.

From a longer-term standpoint, the only players who can afford to stay in are those who have a *lot* of disposable income. These tend to be adults.

JD21290 wrote:

AoBR is likely sold "at cost", just to get people into the game.

john, lets be honest, how much would it cost to make the moulds for the box?
how much is plastic these days?
and the rule book is very cheap to make.

Cutting the steel molds? Quite a bit, but they last forever. And plastic is much more expensive than it used to be, what with oil not being cheap anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if shipping wasn't the single biggest cost element for AoBR, followed by packaging.

JD21290 wrote:they will make alot from this, not only with beginners, but for people adding to a current army, might even get people into a new army.
and plenty of people are buying 2+ boxes for the models.

Could be, tho I won't be one of them. If I'm spending that much, I might as well spend the extra bit and get a Battleforce.

JD21290 wrote:

If you're buying from a Yorkshireman, then of course your prices are low due to his low overhead costs. I mean, the sheet covering the hole that serves as his store can't be costing him much to pass on, nor his daily mouthful of gravel...

i dont care if he lives in a box, its cheap, and his post is next day, and he has everything i need for any army

True. Tho, I guess he could be living in a lake and working 24 hours a day...

Cutting the steel molds? Quite a bit, but they last forever. And plastic is much more expensive than it used to be, what with oil not being cheap anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if shipping wasn't the single biggest cost element for AoBR, followed by packaging.

the moulds are the single biggest cost, but once they are done then they dont have to spend anything on them except maintenance now and again.
plastic has dropped in price recently as has lead and gold, and with the ammount of plastic they buy im sure they get a rather sweet price reduction on it.

Could be, tho I won't be one of them. If I'm spending that much, I might as well spend the extra bit and get a Battleforce.

1 person wont effect thier sales, i doubt 1,000 will, the ammount they have sold so far since it has been released will have more than paid for thier equipment by now, they are now in the + with what ever they sell.

True. Tho, I guess he could be living in a lake and working 24 hours a day...

to be honest, aslong as i get what i pay for his life / tragic fate is none of my buisness.

selfish i know, but hey, lifes a bitch

JD21290 wrote:

Cutting the steel molds? Quite a bit, but they last forever. And plastic is much more expensive than it used to be, what with oil not being cheap anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if shipping wasn't the single biggest cost element for AoBR, followed by packaging.

the moulds are the single biggest cost, but once they are done then they dont have to spend anything on them except maintenance now and again.

This is why I guessed the biggest cost to be shipping, then packaging.

1 person wont effect thier sales, i doubt 1,000 will, the ammount they have sold so far since it has been released will have more than paid for thier equipment by now, they are now in the + with what ever they sell.

Oh, no doubt.

True. Tho, I guess he could be living in a lake and working 24 hours a day...

to be honest, aslong as i get what i pay for his life / tragic fate is none of my buisness.

selfish i know, but hey, lifes a bitch

I'm guessing you don't know the skit?

and lets face it, packaging isnt expensive when yur in the + and each box costs £4 or so to make.


why would i want to know him? he supplies my army for a discount, thats all i want. I can get his phone# for you since you seem interested in him lol

Ugh.

"Skit" != "bloke"

Skit = Monty Python

i know now
keep in mind im from london, different term.

skit = F'ed up person

Hahahah

If only you lot knew proper English...

this is proppa!
just chavved up a bt

anyways, nearly 1 and i need some sleep tonight since i start work in 4 hours.

I really wish people would stop with the lies about how expensive models are for plastic minis. Its simply no longer true. Case in point, if making the molds for plastic was so expensive, GW wouldn't have created a plastic sprue just to give away two minis with the latest WD (Nob & Terminator). By some of your arguments, GW made a special sprue to promote a boxed set that won't make them any money. It doesn't make any kind of economic sense at all. Just because making the models for plastic minis used to be very expensive doesn't mean it still is. Technology advances and things get cheaper, VCRs, microwaves, etc. used to be real expensive, now they're so cheap no one fixes them they just throw them away if anythings goes wrong with them.

Box of 10 Space Marines = $35.00 US (3.5 a miniature)
Assembly and painting between ~1hr-5hrs a mini (10-50 hrs of entertainment)
Each game ~2 hrs of entertainment
lets say you play 3 games with your squad

35 dollars US for ~16-56hrs of entertainment

compared too....
- one crappy diner meal (including tip) $10.00 for 20 minutes
- a descent restaurant oh say $25.00 dollars for 35 minutes
- one theater movie $12.00 for less than 2 hours
- an newsstand magazine ~$5-$8 for 1 hour
- concerts of say $10 for dives and $75+ for mainstages for 4 hours of entertainment
oh and don't forget other luxuries of adulthood like:
- $5-$10 dollars a shot of liquor at a bar (less than a minute of flavor if I may add)
- $25-50 dollars for a 5 minute lap dance

$3.50 a mini = a bargain, hell $20.00 for a mini is a bargain

gaming is one of the cheapest hobbies there are
with the exception of walking... in cheap sneakers

Could you possibly show some evidence to disprove the 'lies' about the cost of the molds used for plastic miniatures? I understand that most technology gets cheaper over time, but you can't take a general idea and claim it applies to a specific case without having some actual numbers.

There's also the cost of the technology advances, and retooling of machinery to take advantage of it, and that all has to be paid off. Technology advances do pay off in the long run. A few years isn't necessarily the long run.

There are several articles about injection molding and advances in technology in regard to them. Here is one example. Most are very technical in nature. Skip down to the bottom to the section on benefits. This is just one example. There are several different types of injection molding techniques and they vary for what product is being produced. I'm not an expert in the field, but manufacturing technology in general has been steadily increasing and as result, plastic goods can be produced for much more cheaply than in recent years.

Building a better plastic part: gas-assist techniques fit the bill for certain plastic parts that require more than standard injection-molding techniques.BYLINE: Hansen, Michael

SECTION: Pg. 37(4) Vol. 6 No. 8

LENGTH: 904 words


Tooling limitations and structural requirements rule out standard injection-molding methods when making certain plastic parts. These include rod-shaped items, large, cover-shaped components, and complex parts with localized heavy sections. Also included are components withbosses, ribs, and thick sections requiring a sink-free cosmetic surface. These parts require services providing specialized gas-assist techniques. Typical medical applications include handles, panels, enclosures, and overmolded and painted parts.

Gas-assist techniques

Several different gas-assist techniques all use the same basic process. A stand-alone gas-assist unit containing nitrogen gas connectedto an injection-molding machine forces gas into a mold cavity after it has been injected with molten plastic. Gas either flows into a nozzle and through the mold sprue, runners, and gates into the hot core of the melt, or it flows directly into the part through one or more gas needles.

One technique called internal gas-assist involves either short-shot molding, in which the cavity is partially filled with melt before gas is injected, or full-shot molding, in which the cavity fills completely before injecting gas. Variants of this, in turn, include full-shot molding with over-spill. There, the cavity fills completely, gas is injected, and then overspill cavities open. Full-shot molding withresin pushed back into the barrel is similar to overspill, but it uses the machine barrel as the overspill cavity.

Another technique, external gas-assist, applies nitrogen gas behind the core of the part after melt injection.

Variants use low-temperature nitrogen gas. Another uses water instead of, or in addition to, nitrogen. Using water as the hollowing medium produces parts in shorter cycle times because it naturally removes heat from the center sections of the molded part.

Internal gas-assist

Shortly after injecting a mass of plastic, its outer layer begins to solidify. This layer increases thickness from when injection ends and gassing begins. Injected gas always takes the path of least resistance through cores of thicker or hotter portions as it flows in the direction of the melt front.

As the gas advances, it displaces molten plastic and pushes it into unfilled cavity areas.

The almost constant gas pressure guarantees an even distribution across the molded part. After a complete volumetric filling, the gas pressure acts like the holding pressure typical to conventional injection molding. A so-called shrinkage lance forms at the tip of the gas bubble. This internal pressure prevents the molded part from sinking inward. After the gassing phase, pressure is lowered either by gas recycling or releasing gas into the atmosphere. Molded parts can be ejected as soon as the internal pressure reaches ambient pressure.

External gas-assist

External gas-assist applies nitrogen behind the non-cosmetic surface after melt injection. The gas forms a blanket on the core side, uniformly pressing the cushioned core against the cavity and gently squeezing out sink marks. The result is a solid part without gas holes, voids, or marks from gas lines on cosmetic surfaces.

Here, compensation for shrinkage comes from the core side of the part due to the applied gas pressure.

Application examples

Combining material selection with computer modeling is key to successfully meeting structural, mechanical, and regulatory requirements.Some applications allow combining techniques. Part examples include:

Handles with cross-sections of up to more than 1.5-in. width or diameter call for overspills to ensure a properly hollowed-out cosmeticand mechanically structural part.

Large covers can be designed with a number of gas-channels that create a network. This network acts as a flow leader, which encourages flow in a particular direction, and helps reduce the press tonnage typically required for larger parts. In one application, for example, gas-assist technology reduced the required tonnage for molding a cover-shaped part from an initial 3,500 tons to less than 1,500 tons.

Keyboards with handles may require coring-out the whole perimeter of the part.

Automated external defibrillators require no sink marks in areas with mass accumulations for a subsequent overmolding step.

Parts made with gas-assist technology can be metallized or powder coated in a secondary operation so they can be used for shielding, oreven to make them electrically conductive.

A few benefits

Gas-assist technology simplifies part design and reduces costs. For example, compared to a structural-foam process, paint costs can be cut, or eliminated for lighter colors. Gas-assist processes avoid undercuts because of the inherent ability to create thicker sections. Tooling is thus less complicated, less expensive, and more reliable.

In addition, the technology produces structurally stronger parts, which improves product safety. It also uses less material for a structurally sound part, thereby reducing part cost. The technology also allows creating functional channels within parts without the limitations of tooling actions. Lastly, parts tend to be much flatter than conventional injection-molded parts because pressure applied to different sections of the part is more equal and much lower than that of conventional holding pressures.

Well, here's an ad for injection molds from CAD design for less than $1500, made in the USA (note the latter to contrast with manufacturing in China). That doesn't include the injection hardware itself, mind you, which would be a significant start-up cost if you were doing your own factory work.

But assuming something as intricate as a toy soldier mold would cost, say, $2000-3000 (from this company's website, it looks like the most complex molds start at $2700 or so), based on that price, that's not too shabby. Certainly within reach of smaller miniatures companies (and you'll note that Perry Miniatures, Warlord and Wargames Factory--the latter being new startups--are working in plastic). I imagine CAD tech brought the prices down considerably from what they were 10+ years ago, and that the price of soft metals has made going plastic more affordable by comparison, but even so...

Now, I admit I know nothing about nothing, but if the Perrys and two startups can do this and offer a pretty inexpensive product, it strikes me that GW--even with doing everything in house--probably isn't hurting financially from mold creation/usage. Frankly, we see that born out of the fact that many of their plastic kits (at least for fantasy and LOTR) are cheap enough that non-GW players go to those figs many times before going to metal alternatives.