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Anyone who wants to play the moral equivalency game and say that Great Britain and the US are the same as Nazi Germany isn't worth the saliva to spit on. No one has said that the other countries were perfect at any time.

IAmTheWalrus wrote:

jfrazell wrote:Of course its also good to remember in the war mentioned it wasn't the US/GB/Australia that set up death camps and killed whole populations.

No death camps for the U.S. but they sure had no qualms about concentration camps. Didn't kill many people but they sure did imprison an entire population.

Wow no moral equivalency there...

Germans kill millions upon millions
Japanese kill millions.

We (incorrect) detain Japanese and some Germans/Italians. We pay reparations to the Japanese Americans. But we're equally bad to the Germans and Japanese?

As the epic phrase goes
"NUTS!"

Well....British Empire. Did quite a lot of good in some ways, but nothing can unbalance the harm we did, from which the repercussions are still being fealt today..

Besides we won WW II so we get to decide who's bad and who's good.

Imagine if we'd lost... all those years of documentaries and self recriminations we would have had to sit through.

And the History channel would have had no programmes at all to show !

If the Allied nations had lost, assuming all things done for victory remained done, I think the US would have a lot of trouble with the dropping of the Nukes.

Sure, it cut the end of the War some, but then, the Nazi's could claim the same of the Concentration Camps. No, I am not saying they are on a par, just trying, rather hamfistedly, to illustrate how the hindsight works depending on the Victors.

[quot]Imagine if we'd lost... all those years of documentaries and self recriminations we would have had to sit through.

And the History channel would have had no programmes at all to show !

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:If the Allied nations had lost, assuming all things done for victory remained done, I think the US would have a lot of trouble with the dropping of the Nukes.

Sure, it cut the end of the War some, but then, the Nazi's could claim the same of the Concentration Camps. No, I am not saying they are on a par, just trying, rather hamfistedly, to illustrate how the hindsight works depending on the Victors.

Respectfully, that arg is full of poopy. The massed gassing of Jews, gypsies, and other desirables didn't help their war effort. One would say the same of the Japanese depradations as it hardened resistance.

But the point still stands though. The dropping of the Nuclear Bombs on Civilian targets, had the US then somehow lost the War, would be viewed extremely negatively by the world now.

Hell, I'm a Brit, and I still feel it was more than a little heavy handed. But then, thats the advantage of living in a more peaceful (well...it is a bit) age. I can afford to have softer approaches.

As to the Extermination Camps (which is a far better term for them) be under no illusions that Germany was the only anti-semitic state in Europe at the time. Had things been slightly different, the UK could have joined in. Fascism in Germany was not an isolated incidence, and had they won, it could have been credited to them 'cleansing' the undesirables from their lands. Plus, we might not have known about the Extermination Camps until well after the job was finished. IIRC, the Allies didn't realise the extent of Genocide undertaken....

ok, by now you may all think im slightly un-hinged, but the whole afghan thing isnt a war.
we cannot shoot "innocent civillians" but they can?
how is it a war if we cannot fight without worrying who we kill?
last month brit plains bombed an area and killed 42 terrorists, and 2 civillians, they were then paid compensation.
how is this a war?
just pull out the brit and US troops, level the country.

ok, its not a nice idea, but effective.

Because it is our behaviour and responsibility in the Theatre of War that stops us becoming Terrorists.

Sadly, with modern tactics, 'collateral' damage is inevitable. It's not a term I like, as I see it as papering over cases of, well, murder, with a far more pleasent term. Like when Genocide gets called Ethnic Cleansing...

However, that our Governments and Militaries accept innocents will be hurt, and are willing to aid those poor souls and the people they left behind, that is what makes our efforts just.

Doc, no all o them are innocent civs, they have alot of groups out there that train the youth to fight, how to shoot and how to react.
its just a cheap way of fighting a war.
all our boys have a uniform.
none of thiers do, s they can be walking up to one of our patrols with an AK hidden.
also, interesting piece of info;
if a terrorist is carrying a grenade you are only allowed to shoot him if he removes the pin.
by then i think its a bit bloody late.

its loads of small things like this that are holding us back.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Well....British Empire. Did quite a lot of good in some ways, but nothing can unbalance the harm we did, from which the repercussions are still being fealt today..

I'm not an uber-patriot by any stretch of the imagination, but it always irks me a bit whenever I hear this (or other variations on the theme) because, imo, it's nonsense.

And again, one man's Terrorist is another mans Freedom Fighter. I don't mean to sling mud, but I do find it interesting that the IRA put the brakes on following the World Trade Centre attack.... could it be because funding Terrorists (and it has been proven that US Business contributed to IRA funds...) suddenly became bad?

The Taleban and Al Qaeda are a much overrated threat if you ask me. They haven't had much success since 9/11, mainly because no country has it's pants down anymore. And when they do attack, their attempts seem somehow amateurish. Take the July 5th Bombings in London. Considering where and how they hit, Casualties were shockingly *low*.

Besides, there is one way to stop Terrorism effectively. Don't live up to the stereotype that annoys the rabble rousers. IF you are seen to make good on your mistakes, you are disarming the rabble rousers somewhat. But, if we just bomb away regardless, everything they say becomes true. Information is a weapon. And thankfully, our's is a lot bigger than their's.

Jazz Is For Losers...but it is true. Problems in Africa, the Middle East, largely down to our interference, and lack of support once we'd taken all we could. We went in, destroyed their infrastructure, replacing it with our own. When we left we took it with us. Old borders were gone, and people took advantage. Ergo, many problems are directly and indirectly our fault. We got rich, they got screwed.

Besides, there is one way to stop Terrorism effectively. Don't live up to the stereotype that annoys the rabble rousers. IF you are seen to make good on your mistakes, you are disarming the rabble rousers somewhat. But, if we just bomb away regardless, everything they say becomes true. Information is a weapon. And thankfully, our's is a lot bigger than their's.

no offence doc, but thats bollocks, you cant stop terrorism.

its one of those things that will allways be around.
instill fear to control.
if they know that they will lose a % of thier population every time they do something then they will stop.

hitla may have done alot of things that were not only wrong, but psychopathic, but in the end he gained control of his country through fear.
if we can do that then it will cut down all of this crap.
not saying its right, but it will work.

sorry my oppinions are harsh, but after losing a brother in all of this my views are swayed somewhat.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

The Taleban and Al Qaeda are a much overrated threat if you ask me. They haven't had much success since 9/11, mainly because no country has it's pants down anymore. And when they do attack, their attempts seem somehow amateurish. Take the July 5th Bombings in London. Considering where and how they hit, Casualties were shockingly *low*.

Besides, there is one way to stop Terrorism effectively. Don't live up to the stereotype that annoys the rabble rousers. IF you are seen to make good on your mistakes, you are disarming the rabble rousers somewhat. But, if we just bomb away regardless, everything they say becomes true. Information is a weapon. And thankfully, our's is a lot bigger than their's.

Sure. Let me just stop being Jewish and get rid of my Israeli passport and that should square everything, right?

With regards to Israel, I cannot help but wonder just how it would cope with it's Bully Boy tactics if the West withdrew their support. I mean, surely there are only so many UN Resolutions you can ignore before that happens? However, that is to do with a Government and not a Religion. Got no problem with any faith, despite being a self confessed Agnostic with distinctly Atheist leanings.

But when it comes to Israel...well, long convoluted story, bound to get me labelled anti-semitic when I am anything but.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Besides, there is one way to stop Terrorism effectively. Don't live up to the stereotype that annoys the rabble rousers. IF you are seen to make good on your mistakes, you are disarming the rabble rousers somewhat.

Going by that logic we should probably embrace Sharia law too. I have always suspected that my wife going to work annoys the terrorists no end.

i cant imagine it jazz

and i myself, have no religion, it just causes gak.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:And again, one man's Terrorist is another mans Freedom Fighter

Yes, we should all give up on trying to determine right from wrong. It's all just, like, in your head man. Everything is ok and nothing is ok. You know, like, man, that cops and terrorists, are like, man, the same thing, man. Ya know? The capacity to think and make determinations, is, ya know, way overated man, and, ya know, having any kind of conviction, is like, like, totally stupid. Ya, know?

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Besides, there is one way to stop Terrorism effectively. Don't live up to the stereotype that annoys the rabble rousers. IF you are seen to make good on your mistakes, you are disarming the rabble rousers somewhat.

Going by that logic we should probably embrace Sharia law too. I have always suspected that my wife going to work annoys the terrorists no end.

Actually, not following Sharia Law isn't much of a concern, not when you consider claims of a new Christian Crusade attempting to wipe out Islam....

And interesting footnote, Sharia Law is something of a misnomer. It was my great fortune to work with a well read Muslim at an Opticians. The word Sharia itself means Law. Ergo, Sharia Law is Law Law, like Mount Fuji or the River Oos, meaning Mount Mount and River River respectively. Sharia Law itself simply does not exist, and is symptematic of the misinformation peddled by our media.

i say ban religion.
its all starting to get irritating and out of hand.

Religion Bad, Faith Good.

I mean, look at the Catholic Church and their new list of 7 Deadlies...http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3517050.ece

Obscene Wealth? Lucky they didn't put Hypocricy or wilful covering up of Child Abuse, or they'd all be royally stuffed!

But I fear I have somewhat dragged this off topic, and for that I apologise.

is there any topic here?
i assumed thiswas athread for pure ranting about WTF happened to our countries over the years.

all i know is in a few years im off to Aus.

Shhh! If you don't advertise the crime you're planning, you might get away with it still! No need to resign yourself to the Hulks just yet!

to be honest, blair should of been hung
we dont need a queen.
and just after i post this im sure i will be arrested XD

I think Tony Blair cops a bit too much flak for the Iraq thing. A Premiers job is to make the hard decision, in the assumption that the information given is accurate and from reliable sources.

Sure, there is the question of how much did he *know* was bollocks, but even so. He had to make a decision, and it turned out to be a bad call.

Blair started toruin this ountry even more than it allready was.
he didnt need to go into iraq, he just needed to get his head a few more inches up bushes ass.

and you agree about the queen?

Yes and no. It is proven that the Monarchy bring in far more than they cost, so it's not all bad.

I just kind of object to all the minor Royals.

they dont work, or do hardly anything for that matter, look at the life they lead compared with the average worker.

Less Teutonic Tactics and more Teutonic Titwillow!