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Ahtman wrote:It's like when Jerry Falwell said he needed people to "donate" money or God was going to "call him home".

Let me get this right, you love Jesus and God, and he offered you a chance to come hang out in Heaven and you said no? That don't make no kind of sense.

I find TV preachers a blight on the church. ever seen the music video Genesis did on this, its rather good.

However I believe I know where I am going after death I am actually quite happy to remain where I am right now, so are many other people with similar faith. We still mourn if a loved one dies who beleives in Jesus, becasuse we miss them, even if we believe strongly they are in heaven.

Orlanth wrote:

Ahtman wrote:It's like when Jerry Falwell said he needed people to "donate" money or God was going to "call him home".

Let me get this right, you love Jesus and God, and he offered you a chance to come hang out in Heaven and you said no? That don't make no kind of sense.

I find TV preachers a blight on the church. ever seen the music video Genesis did on this, its rather good.

However I believe I know where I am going after death I am actually quite happy to remain where I am right now, so are many other people with similar faith. We still mourn if a loved one dies who beleives in Jesus, becasuse we miss them, even if we believe strongly they are in heaven.

Is that the one with the cabbage patch looking puppets and the scene at the end, where IIRC Reagan reaches for the call nurse button, but hits "nuke" instead? That was kind of cool

Grignard wrote:

Orlanth wrote:

Ahtman wrote:It's like when Jerry Falwell said he needed people to "donate" money or God was going to "call him home".

Let me get this right, you love Jesus and God, and he offered you a chance to come hang out in Heaven and you said no? That don't make no kind of sense.

I find TV preachers a blight on the church. ever seen the music video Genesis did on this, its rather good.

However I believe I know where I am going after death I am actually quite happy to remain where I am right now, so are many other people with similar faith. We still mourn if a loved one dies who beleives in Jesus, becasuse we miss them, even if we believe strongly they are in heaven.

Is that the one with the cabbage patch looking puppets and the scene at the end, where IIRC Reagan reaches for the call nurse button, but hits "nuke" instead? That was kind of cool

Not sure if it's the one Orlanth is talking about, but the video you're thinking of is "Land of Confusion".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MzShg7yXik

I can´t remeber the name of the other song either. I would say "Personal Jesus" but that´s a Depeche Mode song from Violator... I remebered "Jesus, he knows me" is the name.

BTW the puppets were a satire program called Spitting Image, gorgeous and funny as hell.

M.

"Your Own Personal Jesus"...

There's an awesome cover by Johnny Cash, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQcNiD0Z3MU

Kilkrazy wrote:"Your Own Personal Jesus"...

There's an awesome cover by Johnny Cash, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQcNiD0Z3MU

I never knew there was a video for this.

Ahtman wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:"Your Own Personal Jesus"...

There's an awesome cover by Johnny Cash, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQcNiD0Z3MU

I never knew there was a video for this.

That's actually the video for his cover of 'Hurt' (Which is better than the original, go figure). Someone did some editing is all...but do watch the 'Hurt' video by Cash. Good stuff.

As to the JW, I consider them a death cult...of course I consider Muslims/Christians death cults too...

When I was an angry young man, I would respond to religious nuts at my door with my R. Lee Ermy impression. Good times. However, I mellowed some in the following years. The last time one of them accosted me, I was at the low point right before I decided to stop drinking and my response was to throw up all over this meek old lady in a cheap flowered dress. Not on purpose, but a hangover does what it will. Now, the only people who come to my door are little kids selling candy bars, which I cannot resist and a local teenager who cuts my lawn, because I'm lazy. My official stance on religion is that I don't know what's out there and nobody is going to get me in their camp. When I die, which will probably be after a long stay in a really horrible nursing home or next week on the toilet, then I'll deal with what's next, if anything without their help.

Wraithwing wrote:I had to laugh at the glarng inaccuracys in this thread as to what Jehovah's Witnesses believe

I'm a JW, and your all making me laugh, its most amusing. Please continue

I am a former JW and I do agree with you. Most of what people are saying here are either flat out wrong or taken out of context and to get into a drawn out debate would be pointless. Although I do find it interesting that you are on this site. I'm pretty sure that if you are a JW, you believe it, you are working to become baptized and live on the paradise earth that you would not be involved in a game that contains the following:

1. Killing
2. Blasphemes (God-Emperor and whatnot)
3. The Chaos (Daemons)
4. Slavery

If you are a true JW then you would have nothing to do with this game or this site...so tell us...what brings you here?

Well, the Pope has now officially abolished Purgatory...so how long until they decide the game is up and admit all this God stuff is just made up?

It is one thing to offer hope to those in need, it is quite another to use your views in an attempt to gather wealth and control peoples lives.....

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:We used to hide from them and pretend not to be home.

I havn't had one at my door for years and years now.

Much worse are the cold calling 'surveys' or 'deals' the telemarketers ring with. Now I answer with a 'hello?', count to 3 and if no answer they will be in India and I hang up.

I love telemarketers, you try and waste as much time as possible, just says things like, oh my dog is out hold on and stuff, i've kept one wait fr 40 minutes and at the end said, mate i only counted 9 meows so bye, to confuse him so bad lol

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Well, the Pope has now officially abolished Purgatory...so how long until they decide the game is up and admit all this God stuff is just made up?

Admit? A bit loaded that isn't it. Perhaps they beleive God is real, I do.

For that matter I met a man who came back from the morgue after being 8 hours dead, he knows what he saw is real. So faith is not so hard for me anymore.

Besides Popes do not have an authority to 'abolish Purgatory' they cane decide not to preach it anymore, but if it is real it hasnt suddenly disappeared, which is what you are implying. Purgatory is unscriptural though and is a medieval add on. There is just a heaven and a hell, or to be really picky three 'heavens' and two 'hells'.

I believe one of the central tenats of Roman Catholocism is that what we hold true on Earth will also be True in Heaven.

Ergo, Pope says there is no Purgatory, then thats that.

I think that God exists only to those who believe he does.

"Reality is the illusion. It's what's in your mind that's real." I can't remember who said this

I just struggle with the concept of a perfect, omnipotent, omniprescent being somehow creating not only all things, but all things so inherently flawed.

How can a perfect being conceive of imperfection without prior reference to it?

And if a God is not ominpotent, perfect and omniprescent, then by definition, it is not a God.

Orlanth wrote:
For that matter I met a man who came back from the morgue after being 8 hours dead, he knows what he saw is real. So faith is not so hard for me anymore.

'Near-death' experiences are no evidence of God. When someone reads such stories they can make two assumptions;

1. God decided of all the thousands that die every day, out of all of the misery occuring in the world; This one individual is going to see Grandma and come back.

Or

2. As their brain is suffering hypoxia and ischemia, it begins to fire erratically and they do their best to make sense of the misfires. This is in addition to countless other biological changes, for example;

"The light was so incredibly bright, it must have been *Insert religous preference of paradise*!"

Or

His pupils were dilated due to oxygen starvation and allowed 100 more times light to enter his eyes than normal.



This is no different than the wise men who went into the desert, starved and dehydrates their bodies..then mysteriously had 'visions'. Might as well pop an Ecstasy...at least it will feel good while God talks to you .


As to your friend, dead in the morgue for 8 hours eh? You have a link?

thesuperiorninja wrote:

Wraithwing wrote:I had to laugh at the glarng inaccuracys in this thread as to what Jehovah's Witnesses believe

I'm a JW, and your all making me laugh, its most amusing. Please continue

I am a former JW and I do agree with you. Most of what people are saying here are either flat out wrong or taken out of context and to get into a drawn out debate would be pointless. Although I do find it interesting that you are on this site. I'm pretty sure that if you are a JW, you believe it, you are working to become baptized and live on the paradise earth that you would not be involved in a game that contains the following:

1. Killing
2. Blasphemes (God-Emperor and whatnot)
3. The Chaos (Daemons)
4. Slavery

If you are a true JW then you would have nothing to do with this game or this site...so tell us...what brings you here?

I was about to ask them same thing seeing as something as harmless as Tai-bo is not allowed and they are actively discouraged from war-based games. I would also like to point out that the latest edicts (about 3 months or so ago) also discouraged the use of non-JW on-line forum type thing. My brother in law had and many others shut down their myspace account.

"Reality is the illusion. It's what's in your mind that's real." I can't remember who said this

Morpheus, maybe....

I just struggle with the concept of a perfect, omnipotent, omniprescent being somehow creating not only all things, but all things so inherently flawed.

How can a perfect being conceive of imperfection without prior reference to it?

And if a God is not ominpotent, perfect and omniprescent, then by definition, it is not a God.

I. SECOND. THAT.

Besides, if there really was omnipotent...etc. and he would be one of the good guys he would've shut down this world centuries ago....

Another complaint I have with the whole God debate is that if the first humans, Adam and Eve, were by all rights "perfect" then even with free will they would have been able to reason that believing the talking snake about the tree was a bad idea. Also on that same note, Lucifer, while still in heaven, would have known that if he tried to challenge God's rule he would in the end lose. The bible is full of accounts where "perfect" individuals are extemely flawed. Contradiction cake anyone? Courtesy of the bible

On the subject of Adam and Eve, Freewill and that...

One of the other tenets of most Christian Religions is that of hell.

I'm sorry, but I was under the impression God gave me free will. Therefore, who is he to punish me for exercising said free will? And if this God is so benevolent and loving, can you kindly explain why His word has, traditionally, been spread at the end of a sword or gun? Not a very impressive omnipresent etc deity if he only spoke to one tiny corner of the world now, is he?

And, at the end of the day, since Evolution proves that the Earth was not made by God, the rest of the Bible, surely, must be equally bobbins? And in calling the Christian faith to account, it is only fair to call shenanigans on all other Religions and Faiths as man made structures.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

And, at the end of the day, since Evolution proves that the Earth was not made by God, the rest of the Bible, surely, must be equally bobbins? And in calling the Christian faith to account, it is only fair to call shenanigans on all other Religions and Faiths as man made structures.

Not getting into the religious debate, but evolution ( that is what I beileve you mean by that) says nothing about how the Earth, or life for that matter, came into being. Evolution explains all sorts of things about how organisms originate and change over time, but does not have anything to do with the origin of Earth ( has nothing to do with biology) or even the origin of life. That is a common misconception.

Agreed and even if it did, it's just a theory. Don't get me wrong I believe that evolution is the most likely process of how the current species got to where they were but it's still just a theory. Doesn't really prove anything one way or the other...neither does religion.

Grignard wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

And, at the end of the day, since Evolution proves that the Earth was not made by God, the rest of the Bible, surely, must be equally bobbins? And in calling the Christian faith to account, it is only fair to call shenanigans on all other Religions and Faiths as man made structures.

Not getting into the religious debate, but evolution ( that is what I beileve you mean by that) says nothing about how the Earth, or life for that matter, came into being. Evolution explains all sorts of things about how organisms originate and change over time, but does not have anything to do with the origin of Earth ( has nothing to do with biology) or even the origin of life. That is a common misconception.

I almost agree with you, if it wasn't for the absolutism. Molecular evolution might very well explain abiogenesis and in my opinion, is the best theory of how life started on earth. This will boil down to how one defines life...

thesuperiorninja wrote:Agreed and even if it did, it's just a theory. Don't get me wrong I believe that evolution is the most likely process of how the current species got to where they were but it's still just a theory. Doesn't really prove anything one way or the other...neither does religion.

Evolution is just at theory in the same manner that gravity is just a theory. Evolution and religion are polar opposites; One is based on evidence, the other is not.

I do agree that evolution fails to disprove God, then again it's not evolutions job to prove a negative. It's up to the religious to prove God .

Most of the bad stuff in the bible is there to scare people into trying to lead good lives. That's just the way people's minds worked back in the day. Everything bad or violent in religion comes from psycho people using it as an excuse to do psychotic things, if they didn't have religion, they'd just find another cause to kill people for. Angels wielding big swords was just an earlier man's way of saying "yeah these guys are super tough and they stab the devil all the time!" instead of "They'll cut your head off if you cheat on your wife"

In this day and age, it all translates to "don't be a dick"

Necros wrote:...if they didn't have religion, they'd just find another cause to kill people for. Angels wielding big swords was just an earlier man's way of saying "yeah these guys are super tough and they stab the devil all the time!" instead of "They'll cut your head off if you cheat on your wife"

In this day and age, it all translates to "don't be a dick"

I don't agree with dismissing religion as an equal vent of dogmatism compared to other social constructs. In the past, tribalism/nationalism had some qualities of blind belief...but we've began to evolve our government beyond that point (Blind faith is not necessary for government). Religion on the other hand, 'relies' on dogmatism. You cannot have a rational discussion with someone who believes faith is a virtue.

I do agree with your great point on how religion is a reflection of culture (If anything, this cements thoughts on religion being man made). Look how religion has evolved over the years, due to the zeitgeist in which it found itself. We gradually shape religion, as due to the ignorance of the original scribes, it could be no other way.

I see where Religion stemmed from, I really do.

Once upon a time, Johnny Peasent is in the fields, whistling away merrily on a fine Tuesday morning. Suddenly, it starts to rain, and flashes light the sky. He heads for cover, and see's his hovel, with his wife and children inside, burning. He can here their screams.

Upset and confused, he goes to the Wiseman or Shaman and asks what it's all about. The answer he gets? 'Ah, well, you see. God doesn't like people whislting on a Tuesday. Never do that again, and he won't do that again. K?'

Religion starts out as a very, very basic form of science. Attempts at explaining the world around us.

Then, at some point, it becomes a way of controlling the populace and getting away with absolute murder....

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I believe one of the central tenats of Roman Catholocism is that what we hold true on Earth will also be True in Heaven.

Ergo, Pope says there is no Purgatory, then thats that.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

The Biblical quote from which you draw this doctrine has been taken out of context. IIRC the Roman Ctholic church itself does not interpret it the way you do.

The quote from Matthew 16:19 refers "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

It refers to the power of intercessory prayer. Binding and loosing are spiritual terms regarding to authority over spirits. It is not a 'wish spell'.

Now you might have had slightly more of a point if you quoted that Jesus does promise in John 14:14: "You may ask anything in my name, and I will do it".

But that what we ask in His name, powered by faith in Him is by definition done within living a life in conjunction with his agenda. So it doesn't translate as an unlimited 'wish spell' even if you had unlimited faith, more an opportunity to ask for what Jesus wants to do anyway. You cannot out-small print God.

thesuperiorninja wrote:I think that God exists only to those who believe he does.

"Reality is the illusion. It's what's in your mind that's real." I can't remember who said this

I can respect your paradigm. It comes down to interpretation, what one would call good luck another would call blessing. However it also comes down to experience and not all are honest with what they see, and this goes both ways.

One of the Biblical verses that puzzled me was how Jesus healed eleven blind people, and only one believed afterwards. Dont make the mistake of thinking our religious belifs in or against a God or Gods are rational. They are heart not mind issues, faith is a choice. This is why "religion vs science" is a problem, some say that science disproves reliogionm, or that the religious cannot be scientists. This is as blind a 'faith' as I have seen. Atheism is a religion, and it too has its share of gurus, martyrs and bloody fanatics.

I do not know your quote but I have a good one that says more or less the same thing. From Aldous Huxley, a noted atheist apologist:

(from memory) "I do not beleive in God, so it is easy to find reasons for my disbelief."

quote=Orlanth]
For that matter I met a man who came back from the morgue after being 8 hours dead, he knows what he saw is real. So faith is not so hard for me anymore.