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Ah but 5 MC and 24 crushers is acceptable.

Interesting ethical view.

IMHO, I would think the super-shooty version of the Daemon army (most Tzeentch built around Fateweaver to allow you to re-roll your Invulnerable Saves; I played against Blackmoor who was using this army and I was pretty impressed) would do pretty well in GTs.

The fact that you don't need to deploy so close to the enemy reduces the effectiveness of Mystics and if you can get Fateweaver down first and drop the army around him you should be able to easily survive any firing that does come your way (not counting Psycannons of course).

I think this army type also works well with the uneven cohort concept in that if you don't get all your good stuff on the first turn you're able to deploy the bad stuff in protected areas and then on the next turn when you get most of your good stuff in you're still able to move and shoot with the bad stuff that landed the turn before.


While it is true that this type of army is going to have a really hard time against certain opponents, that is true of most armies. The fact is, when you go to a GT you generally aren't going to face all the same types of armies and I believe that against most armies, this Daemon force can do quite well.


I would love to get an army build somehow and give it a try but I think I'd have to go with the pro-painted route to make that a reality at this point.

Me too yak. (Pro-painted)

I still like my pavane/tzeentch list, it's annoying.

Kairos in a tzeentch army makes for a kill resistant force but my primary concerns are it can't stop mech and it can't handle assault armies. Gonna be alot of those coming out, and marines will use Null Zone to break his back.

I don't really consider CC vs vehicles something I want to rely upon for a win, as it's so easily mitigated...but demons are forced to do so to get the best results.

If I played Kairos with shooty tzeentch demons, here's how every important fight would go.

I nominate the group with Kairos to come in 1st. Roll: 1. OK so he's not coming in, I'll just hide this stuff until he shows up on turn 2.
Turn 2: Lets roll for Kairos, Roll: 1
Turn 3: Come on Kairos, Roll: 1
Turn 4: Kairos, buddy, pal... Roll: 1
Turn 5: Haha, he's in automatically! My icons are all dead though... I'll just try to put him someplace safe. Drift 12", mishap table, back into reserves.
Random game length, roll: 1

Just as planned?

It would be extremely rare, but you'd better believe this kind of garbage would jump on you at Table 1 in the last round of a GT.

Thanks Stelek for the land raider bit, before this weekend I'm going to need to get very familiar with the "real" land raider rules before testing. Not the land-raiders of the step-children armies I'm not qualified to say if they are good or not, I'm just skeptical that 1k points for 4 models has some intrinsic advantage over easier to kill, but more numerous models. As always, I'll wait for the emprirical evidence.

As to the Kairos versus mech thing. If we are talking armor 12 mech, I don't think they are disadvantaged at all. Kairos would bring triple sniper princes instead of soulgrinders, as the re-rollable 4+ trumps the armor 13 survivability. With Kairos, the changeling horror unit and 3x BS5 bolts, I think this list would have adequate shooting. Check the batrep somnicide posted if you are worried about spam armor 12.

@ Moz... haha totally, fickle is the changer of ways...

Stelek wrote:
Kairos in a tzeentch army makes for a kill resistant force but my primary concerns are it can't stop mech and it can't handle assault armies. Gonna be alot of those coming out, and marines will use Null Zone to break his back.

Well, Tzeentch has BoT to counter vehicles somewhat. Also, I do not see a lot of Mech armies around anymore. I think kill points has slowed them down quite a bit. Also every army has it bad match-ups. Centurian99 won the Chicago GT and the Adepticon Gladiator with his stealer shock list, but if he ever played against a mech skimmer list he would have lost.

As far as assault goes, a Tzeentch list needs Demon Princes. Not only are they your counter-assault, but with Kairos they are very hard to kill. That is the big advantage they have over soul grinders is that they can take advantage of his re-roll.

Until DH show up and rock/paper/scissors them too.

I'm just saying there are way too many 'foils' for the demons to deal with and not be some kind of crazy battleforce looking army with lots of everything instead of everything in lots.

I much prefer an army that can beat ANY army, not just beat 'most' armies except [insert army type here].

Or at least have a shot at it, to make it a game. Not a 'well, good game' thing before setup.

Just my personal feelings.

I am not sure how AV12 is dealt with by S5 shooting. If you are referring to chimeras, those are AV10 where it counts...

Bolt of Tzeentch is S8 AP1 so even a glance can destroy.

And as a daemon player I am okay having an uphill game against Daemonhunters - since they really suck against most everything else, it is only fair ;-)

edit: oh yeah, and I was relieved to see that null zone only works on the SM players turn, meaning it will suck for shooting, but will be okay for units in close combat.

Moz wrote:

I nominate the group with Kairos to come in 1st. Roll: 1. OK so he's not coming in, I'll just hide this stuff until he shows up on turn 2.
Turn 2: Lets roll for Kairos, Roll: 1
Turn 3: Come on Kairos, Roll: 1
Turn 4: Kairos, buddy, pal... Roll: 1
Turn 5: Haha, he's in automatically! My icons are all dead though... I'll just try to put him someplace safe. Drift 12", mishap table, back into reserves.
Random game length, roll: 1

Just as planned?

Well of course if the 1st 5 turns you roll nothing but 1s you will lose, how many armys could live through that. There is the same chance they get nothing but 6s for the 1st 5 turns and then your almost sure to win.

Try planing it based of all 3-4 and see where it gets you.

I am fairly certain Moz was just joking...

I've been playtesting Khorne armies, and as previously discussed those are 'ard as nails.

For 'Ardboyz I've booted my trusty chariots and I'm going with Kairos. I've seen Kairos plus massed crushers flex Ork charges.

40kenthusiast wrote:I've been playtesting Khorne armies, and as previously discussed those are 'ard as nails.

For 'Ardboyz I've booted my trusty chariots and I'm going with Kairos. I've seen Kairos plus massed crushers flex Ork charges.

Explain please how Kairos isn't dead from Lootas, and I guess I'll understand why you seem to think Demons are 'good'.

Also explain how 'Khorne armies' are hard as nails--they're slow as and for troops they're horrible.

If you are talking about bloodcrushers, that isn't a khorne army--that's a bloodcrusher army and everything else added to it is secondary.

maxed loota mob, getting the full 3 shots each, will mathhammer less than 1.5 wounds on fateweaver. a Ld9 test isn't the end of the world. And if I make it to my turn 2, Fateweaver's still up, and you haven't done significant damage to whatever else is still on the board? The match is in my favour already.

A suicide flamer squad or some pink horrors can cut lootas down to half or so without much work, at which point they're forcing Ld8 or 9 morales from shooting already.

Now, I'm beginning to suspect the daemon codex went back in time and roughed you up in high school Stelek, because for a rationally thinking human being you're being a little knee-jerk about the whole thing. So far the only evidence of this army's poor quality is that it's particularly vulnerable to land raider spam like virtually everyone else, as well as some things from the DH codex which were written specifically to cripple daemon armies. It goes without saying that these rules were brought in long before a full 40k daemons codex had even been dreamed up, let alone hammered out.

Now, I don't think anyone's proclaiming daemons to take the top spot in the baltimore GT just yet, but speaking for myself I'm enjoying the army enough to try and push it as far as it'll go. In the meantime, why is it so hard for us stick to a reasonable, constructive (I may need throw some bold or colours on that last one for emphasis in the future) discussion on the subject?

The Defenestrator wrote:maxed loota mob, getting the full 3 shots each, will mathhammer less than 1.5 wounds on fateweaver. a Ld9 test isn't the end of the world. And if I make it to my turn 2, Fateweaver's still up, and you haven't done significant damage to whatever else is still on the board? The match is in my favour already.

A suicide flamer squad or some pink horrors can cut lootas down to half or so without much work, at which point they're forcing Ld8 or 9 morales from shooting already.

Now, I'm beginning to suspect the daemon codex went back in time and roughed you up in high school Stelek, because for a rationally thinking human being you're being a little knee-jerk about the whole thing. So far the only evidence of this army's poor quality is that it's particularly vulnerable to land raider spam like virtually everyone else, as well as some things from the DH codex which were written specifically to cripple daemon armies. It goes without saying that these rules were brought in long before a full 40k daemons codex had even been dreamed up, let alone hammered out.

Now, I don't think anyone's proclaiming daemons to take the top spot in the baltimore GT just yet, but speaking for myself I'm enjoying the army enough to try and push it as far as it'll go. In the meantime, why is it so hard for us stick to a reasonable, constructive (I may need throw some bold or colours on that last one for emphasis in the future) discussion on the subject?

Just in case someone didn't see it directly above mine, QFMT. (The 'M' stands for maximum.)

Hmmm... I wonder if they have any restrictions on what kind of 2500 pt army you get if you win 1st in the next round of `Ard Boyz. Maybe I could get a Blood Crusher army instead of the Tau I think I want.

Hmmm if you only run 1 unit of lootas, I suppose he'd stay around longer than anticipated.

Most ork armies run 2 or 3 units of lootas.

Even just 2 units rolling average is 60 shots.

20 hit.

16.34 wound.

10.7844 saved.

5.5556 wounds.

3.666696 re-saved, so roughly 2 wounds land.

Now add a third unit of lootas, and goodbye.

I'm sorry you are stuck in 'orks must be run as hordes' mode still.

I'm sorry I'm disappointed in a NEW book for 40k and it's nowhere near as good as even the DH, regarded by most players as one of the worst books.

I should applaud when crap floats to the top?

Gee, let me.

I played a game with 2x BT & 3x Winged DP against an LR spam army (BT) and rolled right through them. The KPs for the raiders was quite tasty too.

G

Stelek,

A couple of things:

You continue to use the absolute worst case scenario to try to prove your point. While what you say is true, the fact is, the variabilities of the terrain, deployment, etc. play a huge part as to how the whole game will play out.

The Daemon player is going to get to fire at the Orks first, which means they're going to try to target whatever units threaten them the most. Of course, Orks have huge numbers and can prevent the Daemons from landing near their Lootas if they want but the Daemon player also has the ability to potentially land Fateweaver out of LOS on most tables, provided he doesn't get a terrible scatter.

There are things in a Tzeentch shooty army that can mess Orks up pretty badly. The Blue Scribes are able to use the Pavane of Slaanesh to move a unit of Orks into a giant clump in front of a unit of flamers that has just landed. They even have a 50% chance of using the power a second time on a different unit too.


The Lootas are definitely an issue for the Daemons because of their long range it makes it damn near impossible to Deep Strike far away and play the out-shoot game, but Lootas are stationary and depending on the terrain it can be entirely possible to Deep Strike to an area that has limited LOS to the Lootas and then make your strikes from that point.

It's also possible to have a pretty good amount of 'breath of Chaos' attacks in a Tzeentch army. Flamers have it, so does the Blue Scribes (as can as Heralds on a Chariot), Fateweaver has it (a regular LoC can too), and Daemon Princes can all take it.


Overall it is a game I would like to play, and that's more than I can say for a lot of armies vs. the Ork horde with maxed Lootas.

If Sean Connery says it can be good, then surely it's true! Really I wouldn't mind playing a full Tzeentch army, if for no other reason than an excuse to model up Fateweaver, Blue Scribes, my own custom Pink Horror Herald, and all the other freakish things I could think of from the master of mutation.

Ah yes, that makes your whole case for you--a horrible demon army WON once.

Grats you.

yakface wrote:
You continue to use the absolute worst case scenario to try to prove your point. While what you say is true, the fact is, the variabilities of the terrain, deployment, etc. play a huge part as to how the whole game will play out.

I'm going off the terrain at the GT's, where there was what...one whole piece of LOS blocking terrain for Kairos on every ten boards?

yakface wrote:
The Daemon player is going to get to fire at the Orks first, which means they're going to try to target whatever units threaten them the most. Of course, Orks have huge numbers and can prevent the Daemons from landing near their Lootas if they want but the Daemon player also has the ability to potentially land Fateweaver out of LOS on most tables, provided he doesn't get a terrible scatter.

Really? Land out of LOS on "most tables"? Where? He's a nice big model and you can't hide him on "most tables".

If you land him so far away and out of LOS, ummm...so what ya gonna do to win? He doesn't have a huge range. So you'll castle up in the corner and let me attrition you to death? I like this plan.

I will say it clear as day: You cannot hide Kairos and run him. The army just doesn't work that way.

yakface wrote:
There are things in a Tzeentch shooty army that can mess Orks up pretty badly. The Blue Scribes are able to use the Pavane of Slaanesh to move a unit of Orks into a giant clump in front of a unit of flamers that has just landed. They even have a 50% chance of using the power a second time on a different unit too.

A giant clump? I guess if I didn't deploy my orks in a long line, sure. Max coherency beats pavane, especially since you can only pavane once.

If you have more than 3 or 4 flamers it's going to be difficult to get more than 3 of them on anyone anyway, so what are we really talking about?

5? 10 orks dead? Fine by me.

yakface wrote:
The Lootas are definitely an issue for the Daemons because of their long range it makes it damn near impossible to Deep Strike far away and play the out-shoot game, but Lootas are stationary and depending on the terrain it can be entirely possible to Deep Strike to an area that has limited LOS to the Lootas and then make your strikes from that point.

Since the Ork player can deploy anywhere they like, and the demon player can't...why would an Ork player not setup his army perfectly to force a long (and dangerous) drop far away?

yakface wrote:
It's also possible to have a pretty good amount of 'breath of Chaos' attacks in a Tzeentch army. Flamers have it, so does the Blue Scribes (as can as Heralds on a Chariot), Fateweaver has it (a regular LoC can too), and Daemon Princes can all take it.

All of them risk destruction getting that template close.

Everyone keeps saying how breath is awesome, but they don't show us how they land straight away and not risk destruction.

Please explain.

yakface wrote:
Overall it is a game I would like to play, and that's more than I can say for a lot of armies vs. the Ork horde with maxed Lootas.

I don't mind any of it really, lootas are powerful but there's a trump for everybody.

stelek I challenge you with my daemon army. You can bring whatever you want to play.

G

Lovely.

Should I bring a fun army so you have a chance? A anti-demon army so you don't? A competitive army so you don't?

Oh and you'll need to come here, I'm certainly not going out of my way to play you.

you can bring whatever you want on the condition you don't say you are bringing a FUN army. And one other condition / if you lose you can't post on Dakka Dakka for three months. And the game has to be played at a neutral site. I suggest you bring your new Sternguard list since you think it is hot.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:you can bring whatever you want on the condition you don't say you are bringing a FUN army. And one other condition / if you lose you can't post on Dakka Dakka for three months. And the game has to be played at a neutral site.

G

We insist on a BatRep.

with lots I pix!!!

When I win, what then chuckles?

I won't post here for three months.

G

Stelek: I was reading your blog yesterday, worried I had got the wrong impression of you. That's when I stumbled across this line in your 'mission' post, on your blog:

"I think alot of people believe tactics are meaningless in 40k. I know alot of people believe you can just write a list and autobeat the other guy with some dice rolling that is statistically average."

I have to warn you, you come across strongly as one of those people here. Daemons always have, and always will look sub-standard from a codex flip-through. because it's not a firebase army, where you can count the number of shots you'll get every single turn. Tt's not a "I push 150 models across the table at you through cover" army, knowing at what exact turn your units will arrive where you want them, and in what overall condition. There are far more intangibles to be considered. Another line from your mission page:

"So my mission? To give every player the tools to make a better list. To understand tactics without having to go to military school. To grasp the fundamentals of the game system without having to have a law degree."

I don't see that anywhere in this thread, or any others we have mutually posted on. All I'm hearing is derision and scorn for even CONSIDERING a codex that's not already established as T1. Which is pretty much what you were doing with your sisters LVGT list, right? Playing an army most hadn't even considered?

Oh, and for the record, the GBF/Stelek match would surely be a good read, but will be essentially meaningless. Stelek could table GBF with the worst, fluffiest list he can come up with, or vice versa. It only speaks for the two players, and their particular performance and list choices that day. Like all individually observed matches. Personally, I recommend against it as it doesn't sound like either of you would actually ENJOY it, so intent on proving a point. But you're both adults, play away.

thanks for your meaningless analysis... And it is utterly meaningless.

G