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Oh boy.

1) Identical halves is a hindrance, yet it negates the armies biggest drawback.

2) So if you place a bloodcrusher 8" from the enemy (pretty safe) and scatter back 12", you are in good shape with your run.

3) The demon army is not a finesse army in any way. It's a brute force CC army all the way. Shooting options? Mobility options? Which ones do they have? Right, two to nil.

4) A good army played by a competent player (your words, not mine) against a demon army played by a competent player should net a win for the non-demon player. It should not take the stars aligning to make an army good.

5) As far as skill to build a list correctly, I haven't seen any list I'd run and call a good list. Not in person, not on the internet. Just utter crap lists.

6) Telling everyone how awesome it is to drop after your opponent deployed is obvious. Now tell them how awesome it is to be facing twice your force and the very real possibility that you won't get reinforcements on your next turn?

7) Mishap is better than before, yet...in most scenarios, people don't laugh off having their guys stuck in a corner or back in reserve. For someone talking about competency, that's not a good sign.

8) As far as 'placing units' goes, are you serious? You're a threat, but you are safe. How exactly do icons work the turn you drop? Combined with the ever-awesome drop of half your army, then whatever else you get in with your reserve rolls (which you can't manipulate in ANY way)? Demons cannot have 'alot' of options on the table to start with. You get exactly half, +1 if you are odd numbered in your slot choices/HQ IC with units or not choices. That usually means 6 or less units. Gee, kill the fast ones, then the slow ones, then the fast ones that drop in, then the slow ones. Yes, it's "difficult" to figure that part out.

9) I playtested the Codex for a year. So I didn't just pick it up. I haven't seen anyone run it competently. Seen alot of 'chaaaaarrrge' mindlessly at the enemy and hope I win in CC cause that's all I know how to do. So, you don't mind if I turn down your offer, do you?

I'm glad I've almost got the Daemon guide done. Tired of listening to everyone tell me how great their builds are, with bloodletters and seekers and .

Oh look, Stelek is complaining about daemons again. Yawn. We know, daemons suck. You have already said that you have a personal grudge with them, how about just not ever talking about them again. It would make the internets a much better place.

1. It is a hindrance because then you are playing against a fully built army with only half an army twice over. Some redundancy is good, total redundancy isn't (quite similar to talking with you about daemons.)

2-9. You think Beasts of Nurgle are good. You have absolutely no credibility after this statement.

Woot, Somnicide voted me off the Demon island!

Who has no credibility? You and your massive influx of useful tips and ideas?

Right. The truth hurts, demons suck. Especially with the advice repeatedly being given out.

Hurr bloodletters are gud!

edit: sigh. never mind.

1) splitting in half is not a hinderance. just because you roll a 3 and don't get the half you want doesn't doesn't ruin your game plan you have to figure out how exactly to work with what you have. You need differant units for different jobs and to just take a 925 point list and copy it doesn't build you a good list that wins games

2) you can't just take the worst case scanario and say that that instance makes something bad you have to logically look at all of the options ( otherwise I can say you shoot with sternguard and roll not a single 3+ so therefore they are terrible) so if you use icons to bring in bloodcrushers and run and end up 1 inch away you are in good shape or take a scatter dice for example. now much depends on which way the arrow is pointing so look at the odds a scatter dice hits 1/3 of the time. and an average roll of 2d6 is 7 with an average run of 3.5 now theres no way you put them 8 inches away from an enemy unit (that would be a mistake for a unit like bloodcrushers which your extensive playtesting would tell you) since on a bad scatter they are out of the game. What you would do is find a place at the enemy army that you can put them down in such a way that they are safe from the table edge and can only scatter into one enemy unit if they go that one direction. an place them about 5 inches or so maybe a little further if you don't like being that close (thats what I was talking about when I said you have to place them correctly) so on a scatter 1/3 you hit and any direction but one is okay to scatter in and since you only have a problem if you scatter that one direction and you only have a problem if you scatter 5+ inches ( which is likely but not so likely to make it automatic since dice have 1's and 2's on them) taking all this into account the odds of a bad scatter are seriously limited (not saying it doesn't happen) but thats why it takes a little while to learn this army as deepstriking on the initial move in can be tricky to learn how to do. If you scatter 12 directly away that puts your initial model 17 inches away on the center point from the centerpoint to the edge of his base it's 1.5 inches and the nd model you put down will put you 3 inches closer to the enemy. so before a run move you are 12.5 inches away and a run move of 1+ puts you into assault range with pretty much anything you want to (if marines want to shoot you they have to stay there they move backwards they don't get to shoot, even better with devestators) lets even look at if you start 8 inches away and scatter 12 directly back that puts you 20 inches away from an enemy. from centerpoint to edge of base is 1.5 inches and the other bloodcrusher placed directly towards the enemy puts you unit 15.5 inches away before running, and an average run move of 3.5 puts you How far away class? thats right within 12 for assault range

*on a side not that's why pavane is a good option as you can place units even more safely and pavane them closer and your unit runs and you get a turn 2 charge

3) Thats's why it's finesse. a finesse army doesn't have lots of options all across the board in terms of shooting etc... finesse refers to an army that you need to exhibit a play style, or use your units in such a way that you prevent yourself from making the wrong choices and causing yourself to lose the game not having moving and shooting options

but if you want shooting options then there are Keepers, Lord of Change, Great unclean ones.pink horrors, flamers, daemon princes, soulgrinders, heralds of tzeentch, slaneesh, nurgle, the bluescribes, fateweaver.

and if you want mobility the whole army depstrikes that sounds like pretty damn good mobility to me, or since i know you won't like that there are fateweaver the keeper, bloodthirster, lord of change, bluescribes any herald on a or slaneesh mount or disc, fiends of slaanesh, flamers of tzeentch, daemonettes ( I would consider deepstrikeing where you want and having fleet to be highly manueverable), flesh hounds seekers, screamers, furies (i do think furies suck something hard though but they are mobile), daemon princes, and soul grinders

hmm seems like it can be aweful mobile if you want and if you want shooty ask centurion99 how his pretty much all shooting daemon army did at the chicago gt I hear he did pretty well

4) a good army played by a competent player against a demon army played by a competent player should not net a win for the non-demon player automatically it will be a game and the winner is decided by who plays better or makes better choices just like any other time two competant players with good armies play. you saying that is not fact in any way it's an OPINION you have.

and in the future i would like the courtesy of you using quotes or direct quotations when you claim to be using my words since you using the phrase (your words, not mine) in conjunction with what you type appears to give me a position I did not take and it appears to support what you say. You are misrepresenting what I said, and that leads to confusion and problems.

5) The list I've built and posted earlier would be good, as would the list centurion99 played at the gt, since both of us performed very well with it, and you saying it's a crap list is opinion if you have thoughts on why you think it's bad then please share them, just saying they're bad doesn't make them bad, since not everybody plays the same way you do one persons list that is good and works well, you may never get to work right and vice versa. but thats okay

6)you have a point here it is awesome to drop after your opponent deployed and you may not get reserves the next turn. However if they have their whole army on the table, you get to pick where your units are going to try and go, which you can use terrain to your advantage, and you don't place your army in front of every gun they have (that would be suicide and silly) what you do is place your units in places where they can't bring all their guns to bear, or if they shoot you with some stuff you get a cover save.

If they deploy their whole army its all on the daemon player to make the correct choices here, since you get to see what guns they have and where they are you can split your army accordingly (remember identical halves are bad) and use the correct tools to get the job done. they don't have lots of guns, then go for lots and lots of guys since they can't kill em all, they have lots of shooting, go for your tougher more resiliant units and put them on flanks or use terrain to give your stuff cover saves. what you do all depends on how they have deployed and what they brought since a well built list can crack almost any problem your opponent gives you.

And if you need/hope to get reinforcements they you have some problems, since dice are fickle things you may or may not get what you want, you need to adjust your thinking when playing this codex. You have to make do with what you have at the start of the game, and try to do what you can with what you have ( no real stretch here since everybody does that) the trick is not relying on the reserves to help you. because if you absolutely need a unit to come in he definetely won't (unless it's turn 5 then everything comes in)
Also if you look at it that way when your reserves do come in (and based on the odds you should get some stuff on turn 2) it's an extra benefit to you since now you have this *extra* unit to do nasty stuff to your opponent with, and you could have been using the first half of your army to make him manuever into a bad position for your reserves to take advantage of it. (in a bunch of cases I don't like anything to come in on turn 2 having units in reserve to counter what my opponent may try to do is a powerful weapon also.

also stelek you can't tell people that there's a very real possibility that you won't get reinforcements on your next turn since on turn 2 its a 4+ to get units in as long as there are 2 units in reserve, based on the odds you will get at least one. and daemon armies have more that 4 units in their lists, at minimum i would guess people have about 7 to 8 units in their army which translates to 3 or 4 reserve rolls. This is once again a worst case scenario (depending) and to look at it logically you have to take the opposite into account and say there is an equal chance of getting every unit to show up on turn 2

7) on a mishap you only die 1/3 of the time. If your opponent places you in a corner that is a kill point they won't be able to get, and between moving and running the unit will be able to either contest an objective or capture one by the end of the game (we'll assume slowest unit move 6 assault 6 ) if you move 6" and run you will travel an average of 9 inches a turn which translates to a guaranteed 45 inches of movement in 5 turns, if the game goes on longer there is possibility of more movement there, I find it incredibly hard to belive that with that much movement a unit is out of the entire game. If they go back in reserve thats even better, since if they mishap that still doesn't leave them dead or in a "corner" and you still have full control of your unit (its almost like you didn't make that reserve roll that turn) and I am perfectly okay with having my unit in a corner (it's not optimal but you can work with it since everything in a game can't possibly go your way) or in reserve, it does suck when they die though, which if, you have placed your units correctly the chance of that happening are actually quite low

8)I never said you're a threat, but you're safe. You're probably misconstrueing what I'm saying. You drop in so that you land safely, but not so far away that your stuff can't threaten your opponents units on the following turn. And if your army is built well your opponent can be dealing with 4+ units of 15 models or more that you get one turn to try and kill, almost all armies are hard pressed to deal with 60 models 8 inches away, keeping in mind you don't get to fire with every unit you've deployed (the daemon's opponent) at maximum effectiveness. Since some will be out of range, some will be firing outside of rapidfire, and some will be granting cover saves to what they're shooting at. As far as shooting fast stuff then slow stuff that's not playing against daemons that's playing 40k in general you do that against any army you play (assuming you are a shooty based army that is the others are a different story)

9) for playtesting the codex for a year you sure don't like the most effective units in the book, nurgle isn't effective at killing the enemy, and daemon princes are point sinks, and if you bring multiple soul grinders (that may work for your play style definately not mine) they can die way too easily

*as far as playtesting the codex for over a year, since the book only came out in may of this year and that was 5 months ago I'm going to have to say even with accurate internet rumors (some of which weren't true when the book came out) you couldn't have been playing it for more than 6 months total. And since you refuse to go to tournaments I don't see how you can see anybody play it competently, since your ideas about it are not even minded and unbiased, and I'm sure you don't have anybody doing well with it in your local store

I would urge everybody to take his daemon guide with a gigantic grain of salt, since the ideas stelek has about the book in my opinion are very incorrect and this army can be competitive and has proven so by doing well in the recent big events. If people would like me to write up a daemon guide I'd be more than happy to. As long as there is an interest in such a thing, if only to correct misconceptions people online may have with the codex

lol beasts of nurgle, i'm going to start using that as an insult.


Well Bob what do you know, you like Beasts of Nurgle in 40k

In all honesty they are pretty aweful

@ Tortuga - that would be awesome. I started one here in the articles section, feel free to either add to this one or do your own. I kinda got sick of all the crappy stuff about daemons that was out there and figured I would write my own crappy stuff ;-)

I just haven't had time to work on it lately.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Chaos_Daemons_Overview_and_Tactica

Beasts are right at home in an Epidemius list!

So what I get from all that is this:

Nerfed one-dimensional armies are good, and winning with them should make your epeen go up.

There's someone on Dakka you should put on your friends list, he likes boring mono lists too.

Strange, I am getting that it is a fun list with lots of different options and that you are a [edited for flaming]. Guess it all depends on how you read it.

So what I get from all that is this:

Nerfed one-dimensional armies are good, and winning with them should make your epeen go up.

There's someone on Dakka you should put on your friends list, he likes boring mono lists too.

stelek, im sure theres better ways of getting friends than this
after all, didnt you make lists that contain pretty much all landraiders and one with all dreads?

Ah but those Codices have OPTIONS, jd.

You can make more than 'hurr kill in CC' armies with those books.

Demons? Please. Show me the 'options'.

Kill slow? Nurgle.
Kill fast? Khorne.
Kill in between slow and fast? Slaanesh.
Force cover saves? Tzeentch.

Makes me giggle.

stelek, all codices have otions, would be a crap game if you had to take a pre written list

open the daemons dex to pages 78 - 87 and you will see alot of options.

just because you cant make a list that includes a few units hidden in AV14 raiders doesent mean they dont have options.

@Stelek

As oppose to Tyrannids (hurr smash), Necrons (hurr shoot), tau (hurr shoot), or guard (hurr shoot). Those armies have the same number of options that demons have but you don't seem to hate on them as much. What does have you all in a bunch about demons stelek?

I despise Necrons equally.

Tau have lots of army lists available, and they don't all work the same.

Tyranids and Guard, same thing.

Demons? CC, foot. That's the book.

Necrons? Shooty, foot. That's the book.

There's nothing subtle or imaginative inside either, and if you still don't get it I don't know what to tell you.

But they are still all based around shooting correct? I mean all kroot are good for are speed bumps IMO so tau and guard armies are still one dimensional. They don't fight well in combat at all. they have to stay away from their opponent and shoot them to death. Sounds oddly like demons needing to get into cc.

Hmm....Unless you haven't noticed the only thing that is the same in all demon army is that yes it does have to get into combat, no less than tau and guard need time and space to shoot.

There are a ton of different lists and options to accomplish you style of play with demons. Just like there are a ton of ways to shoot your opponent to death with tau and guard.

But I do understand stelek that for some reason you hate Demons. And that's your opinion but don't try and sour anyone who wants to play the list. Your style is not the only style nor is it the only style that wins.

You would be incorrect in your assumptions about Tau.

You are also oversimplifying to prove your point, which doesn't really prove anything other than you can oversimply.

The only thing that's the same in a demon army (not sure what a non-all demon army looks like) is without the ability to get into close combat, it's an autoloser of a army.

Tau and Guard don't get time to shoot against 5th edition armies, who assault on turn 2--including Demons. They also can only get space in a quarters mission, so that's out. Yet guard and tau both engage in CC successfully, and have multiple ways to run their army.

Demons do not, and while you can say there are tons of different lists and options--the reality is, there isn't. You saying so and admonishing me to stop putting demons down doesn't change this.

Drop half your army on the table, get shot up. Whenever the rest of your army comes in, if you haven't wiped 2x your points with CC (where you cannot move your guys around well, you scatter randomly, and you cannot consolidate into CC after a win) you lose?

Gee, sign me up for that bit of fun.

I'm not here to sour people on playing the list.

I am not going to let anyone who thinks Demons are competitive (it's the generals, not the list) convince others that they are.

A fun army, sure. Competitive? Against 5th edition lists? Since when, never? Yes, never. I don't care how badly you can whup on 4th edition battleforce lists.

You can't hope to beat a 5th edition list with a fantasy army, no matter how good you think it is--you just don't get a reliable win out of the army against all comers and that means it isn't competitive.

I bought and assembled a 2k daemon army and played it pretty hard at the end of 4th. I won the majority of my games, the only army I had problems with was mech. I dropped it after I realized that I basically auto-lose against Imperial armies with Inquisitors or Dreadnoughts. Now, I can understand if you, as a daemons player, ignore the Inquisitor (even though DH anti-deep strike has become must-have in Imperial lists) because it's cheesy or you never encounter them, or something, but Dreadnoughts? There's about four units in the Caemons dex that can take on a dread in hand to hand, and they all cost 200+ points and can be shot off the board the turn they land. Bloodcrushers die so hard to Dreadnoughts, especially the Ironclad, that the only thing I really use my Daemons for now is cutting bits up to decorate my Marines.

I'm not drinking Haterade, I own probably $750 worth of Daemons, I've played them pretty hard, I had a lot of fun with them, and all I need to kill countless swathes of them is an Inquisitor Lord and three Ironclads.

once again stelek refer to the above posts you claiming that they are bad and are aweful and have no options and that they aren't competitive are all perfectly refuted by myself in the above posts so if you're confused please go back and reread them. I notice you didn't in any way shape or form refute anything I've posted up above

There is a shooty version of a daemon army which does well (refer to centurion99 he ran it at chicago gt) They obviously are competitive due to the showing they've had at the major tourney's recently.

and I see you oversimplify plenty of times to try and make your point you have no basis for telling someone not to do that.

Hulksmash is right you do try to sour people on the army, you don't have one good or constructive thing to say about it, and if you think it's awful and shouldn't be played, why do you try to give people advice on their builds, especially if you don't think it can win? You should probably leave those threads alone for people who do think they can (and have proven that they can) win. alright we get it you don't like them and you hate them and you don't think they should be played, you keep forgetting thats YOUR play style and your OPINION. Now if you don't mind I think I'm going to be actually helpful to people here as opposed to others.

sour clams I do agree that dreadnaughts in large numbers can be a problem, but there are lots of answers in the book for those sorts of things, and I don't think that they can all be shot off the table.

We have all the greater daemons, soulgrinder, screamers, models with rending (not ideal at all) and their rear armour is 10 so they can be immobilized from behind with shooting, and lots of people love units with bolt of change.

I actually believe that the typical daemon list thats been constructed well can handle a fair amount of dreaddys, its all on how you play the game out (isn't that always the case)

I'm not saying its easy to smash them just that there are answers.

also you may not run into them so it isn't always a problem.

more importantly I believe that there is no army that can beat all other armies out there, everybody has their bad matchups and their good ones. So yes there are ways to neutralize daemons, that doesn't make them bad. Otherwise every army is bad because I can build a list to defeat any other list out there badly. It just makes daemons just like everyone else

@Tortuga: You are unlikely to change Stelek's opinion. He posts hundreds of times a week, and has never admitted error in any post.

@Sourclams, why do you think a daemon prince (80 points, slightly less than 200) won't, on average, destroy an Ironclad Dreadnaught in close combat? Or let's say a pair of Daemon Princes, just to use equal points from both sides? Also, do you think the Daemon codex lacks the AP 1 shooting to put down a dread pre-CC? We've got railgun-equivalents, dreads move as infantry!

As for Inquisitor Lords, Daemon players usually display some low kunnin to handle such devastating foes. For example, we read the deployment zone rules and the objective placement rules. Diabolical.

I don't think you are drinking Hatorade. I'm not getting the "random rage" vibe from you at all. Rather, I think you don't play often, and give too much credence to factoids you read online. I can see why you've abandoned the Daemon Codex. Good luck with your marines.

My favorite bit is how DH anti-deep strike is "must have" in Imperial Lists. Vintage.

at 1st i was arguing that daemons would win with ease, untill i played using them, its easy to say something, but weather it works or not, thats another matter.
scatter plays a massive part in the decision of win or lose.
out of 5 games its 2 wins and 3 draws.

its all a case of having a great plan, and another 2-3 plans once the 1st one crumbles.

they struggle against heavy armour (LR's and mono's)
sure, they have units that can take them out, but, most opponents know which units, and will target them early on.

im between the lines here, they look great and are fun to play, but if i was going into a serious tourney i would take my orks, daemons are too un-predictable and un-reliable to make use of a bttle plan as a small thing like a single unit scattering can ruin it.

Edi: my usual bad spelling.

I hear what you're saying Tortuga, and believe me I wish that I had grounds to believe otherwise beyond what I posted. But Bolt of Change, especially on BS3 models like what Horrorspam armies are going to be packing, is definitely not the way to take down an Ironclad. You're going to waste so many shots plinking one dread that you'll get shot to death by the rest of the army.

Soulgrinders die to Dreadnoughts. WS3/I3 is a big, big deal when you're fighting a guy that can rip you open like a tin can.

Daemon Princes have a pretty reliable chance, but with a 5+ Invul unless you're spending a lot of points on Mark of Tzeentch *and* Iron Hide means they get shot off the board quite easily.

Praying for a Rend is a freakin' wash when you realize that he can bog down all your good units, like crushers, while all your crap units, like 'letters, get shot off the board.

That leaves rear armor (yeah, that's really not very easy for a deep striking army to achieve off the bat), and greater daemons ... that all cost 200+ points and still max out at T6 (making them easy to shoot off the board).

For those going 'YEAH buT WHO ALWAYS TAEKS 3 IRONCLADS OMGOMG PHAIL', well, a lot of people do. Especially since Ironclads are 1. cheap, 2. a cool model idea, and 3. synergize with Vulkan really, really well.

Yes, they're a Marine unit, but Marine players are absolutely everywhere, and although Daemons can do very well against a lot of lists that weren't expecting them, if you run into the guy who spent five seconds thinking 'kay, what if I fight daemons', then you're already at a severe disadvantage.

It is entirely possible to go with 2 Bloodthirsters and 0-1 Soul Grinders in the heavy slots to combat Dreads and heavy Mech. I like Soul Grinders vs. most vehicles except dreads and that is where the Bloodthirsters come in.


I'm going to try this 1750pt army out the next few times I play.

HQ - Bloodthirter, str, blessing
HQ - Bloodthirster, blessing
EL - 6 Bloodcrushers
TR - 10 Bloodletters
TR - 10 Bloodletters
TR - 10 Bloodletters
TR - 10 Pink Horrors
TR - 10 Pink Horrors
HV - Soul Grinder, phlegm

I shouldn't have to worry about Dreads as much with this list. If the 2nd Thirster really needs his +1 str or if my Horrors really need a changling and/or bolt of change I can always drop the pink horrors down to 9 models or so.

40kenthusiast wrote:
@Sourclams, why do you think a daemon prince (80 points, slightly less than 200) won't, on average, destroy an Ironclad Dreadnaught in close combat? Or let's say a pair of Daemon Princes, just to use equal points from both sides? Also, do you think the Daemon codex lacks the AP 1 shooting to put down a dread pre-CC? We've got railgun-equivalents, dreads move as infantry!
........
My favorite bit is how DH anti-deep strike is "must have" in Imperial Lists. Vintage.

First off guy, I love your batreps. I also love that you do well with your Khornate death squads. I'm serious here. I think you're a great player without having met you.

But I actually play against daemon armies occasionally, and both Bolt of Change and Tongue do not bother me much or at all. Now that dreads come with smoke by default, 3 Soulgrinders will kill an average of 0 Ironclads on the turn they drop in. And if you don't drop those first, then I can be into whatever *did* drop first in melee and bog the whole thing down. A Soulgrinder is a powerful but unsubtle unit and precision armor destruction isn't in its strong suits. Bolt of Change? Same deal, only even less scary than Tongue.

In my turn I can shoot your grinders off the board or just ignore them while I kill the bloodthirster or GUO or whatever that actually *can* hurt my Ironclads. The point investment for 3 'clads is so low that I can take a lot of other stuff that's potent at range. And having an Inquisitor on hand for 38 points means that you're dropping far away, or dying horribly on the fall. This isn't just internet troll-tactics, it's the stuff I've used in games against daemons.

Again, I wish this wasn't true, I'd love to keep the army viable, but it's just so easy for me to counter the army that I've played. Now I'm sure that, as good a player as you are, you'd throw some loops in there to keep me guessing, but that doesn't necessarily make Daemons a competitve army, it just means that you'd be really really scary if you were actually playing a competitive army.

I actually agree with you on the bolt of change issue I don't believe they are very good, (however dropping in behind a dreadnaught and shooting it in the rear with bolt can do something useful) and I'm not a big fan of the soulgrinder. Rending is also not the best option at all (although some people seem to like it) I'm of the opinion that the Greater Daemons are the best answer to it.

A bloodthirster can tear a soulgrinder apart with ease, and if it doesn't actually kill the seige dreadnaught it acts as a springboard for getting the other ones on following turns.

Daemon princes can do a pretty handy job against them too.

I fully believe multiple seige dreadnaughts are quite possible to kill with a daemon army, it's just about using the right tools and building the right list.

It's just about how you use the tools you bring.

Tortuga, I don't see any need to refute what you've said, you didn't make any claims that bear up to the light of day.

40kenthusiast: Tsk tsk. I was wrong just the other day. I'm still waiting for you to explain how 6x5 troops in your demon army is 'win'. I note none of them are plaguebearers either.

Lose in KP and in objective taking missions, yet somehow you don't. So the secret to bringing an army with such crappy troops and winning is what, exactly?

@Clams:

Thanks for the compliments. I try pretty hard to play right, mostly I feel embarassed when I lose due to error, and that drives me to be very careful.

On Dreads:
I don't get how the Dreads are getting to the Daemons in one turn. I also don't get how they are smoking. If I go first, the dreads aren't smoking, and I'm going to try not to land within 12" of ironclad dreadnaughts with anything I mind them charging. If they go first, and it isn't Dawn of War, they can move + run to be in threat range of most everywhere, but if they are threating everywhere they are spreading out a bit, and you can surround one and menace it.

I can buy dreads as more deadly vs. Daemons than otherwise, but don't you think that that's sort of made up for by the difficulty that the rest of the dex has doing anything to them? Assault squads, tac squads, bikers, etc. are just going to get chopped. If you've got a runaway dread it can be tough (nearly lost me game #2 in my last tournament), but other than dreads the rest of the Marine dex has real trouble with Daemons. The 6 Dread guy has enough trouble with Tau/Orks/CSM that you can hope not to encounter him early on.

On Inquisitors:
In Dawn of War the 38 point guys aren't on the board, or are just barely on the board if the enemy got first turn.
In Pitched Battle you try and keep the objectives towards the middle, or turn the flank that they don't have their umbrella on. If they counter by placing their half of the objectives closer to their side you try and win the roll and take the side with the objectives.
Spearhead annihilation is the only combination that really makes inquisitors hurt, and even then you've got a shot as long as they've got rhinos/drop pods to pop. Typically my version of Daemons goes for the massacre in annilhilation anyway, them having a dev squad shoot each of your grinder/crusher units as they land (if their 4d6 roll doesn't stink) isn't all that bad.

@Stelek:

You hide the squads in reserve. They live in the second wave, and you get 3 on round 2, 2 on round 3 and 1 on round 4 (on average). The theory is that by the time the last troops are falling you've killed the long range shooting that might threaten them. It works pretty well for me. If you roll in the wrong half of the army you drop them far away and go to ground, most lists don't have enough long range anti-infantry fire to really slaughter.

So the plan is hope you don't face an army that can pick your heavies apart, and have enough left over to take your troops.

I note the first wave coming in second shutters most Demon armies.

I still want to play where you play, land of not enough shooting to kill a squad of marines and a squad of sisters in a single turn...must be nice.

So I have a couple really good finishes in tournies with my daemons at this point and have changed some of my opinions on daemons.

First off, they are not a top tourny list, but can beat top tourny lists with a little luck.

The inherent problem with the list is that you need luck to win. Especially something like a 5 game GT. They do a great job of forcing a draw but against a lot of armies it's really difficult to massacre.

Anyway, some suggestions for you:

You have to have a squad of plague bearers. They are jsut too damn resilient not to take, and controlling both sides of the field is REALLY important with daemons. Tying up a unit with plague bearers is a great way to buy time for heavy hitters to summon in and makes a great anvil to a hammer. They are also a great screen unit as any unit that summons in stands around for a turn. This PB unit should have an icon. I usually run this squad fairly big.

Greater daemons. I wasn;t a big fan at first, but after having som much success with nurgle deamon princes I started looking int a Great unclean one. He is a beast. I run him with puke. He is a great fire magnet or tar pit. He also destroys high toughness creatures, and if you are playing tournies you will run into big nids all the time.

blood thirster. He's fragile, but iwth the unholy might he's great at tank hunting. He also draws a lot of fire but usually weathers one turn, kills something and dies. He's a kill one unit missile usually. Great at popping a tank, character or elite unit.

lord of change is unusable. keeper of secrets in good, but I already have guys that kill infantry. he doesn;t really add much to my lists although pravene is nice.

Troops: One unit of plague bearers with an icon is your anchor. They don;t do much more that tar pit and summon off of unless you have epidemius. The plus side is that you can deepstrike them into cover and not care. Then you can go to ground, and they basically are impervious to incoming fire. As you can often place tokens drop on in the woods and thin unit on top of them. Keep them central. Or use them to guard a token deeps in you zone and send everything else forward.

As for other troops: They all die. But you have to take them to win. My of the game you are trying to keep them in hth so they don;t die to fire power. Because of that I tend to like blood letters. Tehy work well as a hammer unit, but they are slow. I'm luke warm on horrors, although I've had luck using them as a bog unit. People just never expect to be charged by them. Slaanesh hit hard with some luck, and move the fastest but I just can;t seem to keep them alive.

Elites: Flamers are great but they will end up in hth. If you pull of the tactic of icon and flame, more power too you, but I find they injure or kill a unit then meet and untimely death. I personally liket blood crushers the best but beast of nurgle are really quite good with epidemius. As for Slaanesh, take the fast attack gusy instead.

Fast attack: I honestly thought these guys would be the most important part of the list when I first really the book. Now I'm not sure. Seekers hit hard and are fast. Flesh hounds are tougher and move through cover is really a useful skill.

Heavies: Deamon princes have a place in this book. I tend to think 60 points is too expensive for flying, but I see peopel tote them and can envision a fast hard hitting list that kills faster than mine.

In my epidemius list I like iron hide, MON, flies and the shooting power with 3 AP 3 shots. Good way to get kills up quick. Noxious touch is nice if you can find the points too. I dont; like to spend much than that on them.

Soul grinders are pretty awesome. I took the S10 choice for awhile but shooting tanks to death in 5th sucks. Especially at BS 3. I find phlem is better an toss them into the fray. They charge further than people think becasue they have fleet. They are also good tar pits for units with no powerfists.

Anyway, I think there are some important nuances to a daemon list. For one having a lot of different types of units lets you exploit situational combats. Also, the list is inherently fragile because it's slow, so I find you are basically forced to invest in tough units and you usually win games on turn 5. So you have to manage model death until that point. I tend to stick to resilient units like soul gridners, great deamons, plague bearers and blood crushers and deamon princes as the main spend of my points.

Another thing to remember is that daemons are pretty good at playing missions. You can usually just deepstike onto objectives and then play defend via tar pit and hammer. In KP games, you can engage combats against weak opponent and just tie a unit up for a long time, or just deepstirke units toward the corners and hide them or pick off little units.

Finally, there are some good force multiplier units like the scribes, skull taker, Kirios, epidemius and the masque. They are really useful and powerful if you build a list around them. Also a special not to the masque. He usually lasts a turn but he can be a serious game winner.

put him in your second wave with soul grinders and phlem and bunch people for template shots. At the same time he brings units closer to charge. Also drop him next to a unit with an icon. Most poeple won't know they can pick him off in the shooting phase.