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So do gaunts count as not taking one? My Nid codex says that they count as "automatically passing any morale test they are required to make". This implies that they infact "take" one, but there is no roll required, as it should be an automatic success.

reading is tech

BGB wrote:It's not uncommon for units to be immune to Morale checks for losing an assault, or automatically pass them for some reason (they may have the 'fearless' special rule, be subject to a vow or some other special rule). When such units lose combat they are in danger of being dragged down by a vicious enemy despite their determination to hang on.

These units do not take Morale checks and will never suffer fall back. Indtead, these units suffer a number of wounds equal to the number their side has lost combat by (allocated as normal). (BRB, P44, No Retreat!)

Tyranid Codex wrote:Any Tyranid broods with a model within 12" of a synapse creature (including the synapse creature itself) never fall back and are assumed to automatically pass any Leadership-based test they are called upon to make, other than psychic tests and those called upon for target selection. (Tyranid Codex, P28, Hive Mind and Synapse Creatures, first bullet point)

emphasis mine

since you pass the test automatically you do not roll. since you do not roll you are subject to No Retreat.

I guess the morale of the story is not to waste your Termagants in close combat, but to use them as a mobile shield to protect your swarm from shooting and pro-active assaults.

Yea I'm not really sure how many gaunts to run now, on one side I need a cheap front line to get other stuff down the field, but on the other I don't want them to get down there and get killed so quick that they give easy killpoints to the enemy and don't hold up squad long enough for the bigger stuff to get there.

Doak, thanks for the advice, I just thought I'd try the broodlord thing because it seems like it would be a good flank and that if nothing else would keep the enemy on their toes and give me options. As far as the tyrant goes, I'm thinking I'm going to give him warp field if I drop a brood of termies. That should make him tough enough. Hopefully he and the carnifex will soak up shots and if they do I'm probably going to drop the hormogaunts for more genestealers or soup them as as you are talking about.

Thanks for the replies.

No problem! It sounds like you have the right idea on how to play your old stuff--and the problems they present in 5th.

You are dead on about the difficulties of sending a frontline meatshield in. It is very hard to create a tarpit with them, unless they hit a fearless unit. And I don't even want to think about the dangers of assaulting the new Marines with Combat Tactics...

Yea no kidding...I've never liked playing against marines and now it's just going to be that much worse...I usually didn't have too hard of a time beating them, but that's just because they were predictable and I had sweeping advance. Now I don't have that and they have all kinds of rules that will benefit them. Typical GW.

On the bright side, And They Shall Know No Fear means that they'll probably suffer No Retreat! wounds against I5+ Tyranids.

And if they try to escape from a Carnifex using Combat Tactics, you can catch them on the Sweeping Advance, inflict more No Retreat! wounds, and have them around for the Carnifex to beat on some more.

Definitely a good idea to toss some high Initiative bugs into combat with Marines, to make their special rules work against them.

What is this combat tactics rule exactly? I've only heard people mention it...

"A non-fearless Space Marine unit with this special rule can choose to automatically fail any Morale check it is called upon to take."

So if they are charged by a unit that outmatches them in close combat, a non-fearless unit of Space Marines can basically attempt to withdraw from a losing proposition rather than depending on the luck of their Morale check.

Oh so you still get the chance to chase them right? Then I don't really see that as being a problem for most of my army.

I'm thinking one big unit of gaunts (have to be eliminated now, not just broken) with 2 or 3 without number spine gaunts, and maybe a squad of hormies for kicks.

Are we expecting our gaunts to accomplish anything or are they just mobile cover saves for the rest of the Tyranid army?

They can sit on objectives.

Are we expecting our gaunts to accomplish anything or are they just mobile cover saves for the rest of the Tyranid army?

At a minimum 5 points, they should do more then just provide cover saves and maybe score if you are lucky.

Though the point of 'without number' would be that they die providing said cover saves and either get slingshotted back to the front or just enter again to sit on our objective.

Yea I think I might run like one brood of 20 and use WON so that way once they get killed I can run for objectives with them and let the genestealers tie everyone else up.

I am starting to think that WoN is indeed the way to go with Gaunts.

I'm finding myself in situations where I don't need more Gaunts, I almost need less, so that shooty bugs can polish off what they were fighting, rather than having the combat drag on for an extra player turn and then the enemy can stay in combat.

Gaunts just blow. You simply can't bring enough Gaunts to win a fight against anything above mediocre in CC. They always lose combat, always have to take extra No Retreat saves, and lose even more. That's not to say they're not useful, and don't need to be in the list, they just can't be expected to kill anything ever. Anything they kill is a bonus. They exist purely for objective grabbing and for control of the battlefield.

In my Bugzilla list I run two squads of 20 Termagaunts. That's 120 points per. You can get 13-14 for the same price, but with WoN. I think this is absolutely the way to go, and my list is as good as changed in that respect.

This comes up often around me.

Same, I've seen it a few times, it's a bit of a problem in the new rules. But I think it's right, everyone takes wounds. Brutal for hordes, and it makes it very risky to involve other models in assaults with Gaunts. Even if a Fex gets in there and kills a model or two, you know the Gaunts will turn the combat into a loss, and might cost the Fex some wounds.

I guess the morale of the story is not to waste your Termagants in close combat, but to use them as a mobile shield to protect your swarm from shooting and pro-active assaults.

Well, sorta. The moral IMO is to totally waste your Gaunts in CC, knowing that it's not actually a waste if you do it when you need it done. If the enemy is coming to tie up your shooty bugs in CC, put Gaunts in the way for them to deal with first. A good player knows that a Shootyfex is actually sorta lame in CC, and easily taken down with a PFist. They'll come for it. You need to speedbump, shoot, counter assault.

When you add WoN to the mix, you've got the same utility of slowing up the enemy, plus you have the squad coming back in short order to do it again, or to go sit on an objective. Since the enemy generally has to come to a shooty Bug list to beat it, you know your WoN Gaunts won't have far to run to get back into it.

Here's the thing aboot WoN that I'm still pondering: The more expensive that Gaunt you buy it for, the more valuable it is. You can take it on any Gaunt that's worth 8 points or less. If you think of WoN as being 3 points for another model of the same type, it might be clever to max the cost of the Gaunts to 8, so that you're getting a whole new squad of 8 point Guants for 3 points, rather than a squad of 6 point Gaunts for 3 points. +1S seems like a no brainer for this situation.

I don't think there's any danger at all of my Gaunts surviving past the second turn. They're T3 with a 6+ save, they die quick. You know you're going to get your 3 points worth at least once. I think WoN is a no brainer. The 8 point Gaunt... Might be in my list after some playtest.