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I have only played a few games in 5th edition and the last I played was 3rd a few years ago. I use to run a swarm army, but in the past couple of games it seems like the new close combat rules are not in favor of having 32 model swarms anymore. I lost an entire brood in the 2nd turn. Granted they were termagaunt against a warboss and his retinue (I knew they would get owned...but I only took like 11 wounds out of 32 and somehow the new rules mowed me down to 10 models left. Even against just a tactical squad of marines I can't seem to wound them and they make light work of my gaunts.

My usual strategy was to hold up target squads...such as above with termagaunts or hormogaunts and then clean them out with my winged hive tyrant, genestealers, or even a carnifex if needed. Does anyone else have these problems? Any suggestions on ways to modify my tactics to help this?

Thanks

there is no such thing as fodder any more. Also no way of trying to outnumer your opponent with a few cheap models. Now you will have to charge with better units from the get go, because otherwise you will lose the combats (gaunts no matter what kind are squishy...)

Try using more genestealers. They cost more, but can also dish out the hurting a lot better. They should make short work of most troops, even assault troops, even despite the rending nerf...

Maybe swap opponents to a guard with heaps of guys and tie up his gun lines lol, that way you are bioth are weak and sqwishy and then you throw your MC's in and you win lol

Combination Charges are the way forward now.

Try Warriors and Gaunts, or perhaps Raveners with Hormies.

Spineys are best used to sit on objectives in or close to your deployment zone, going to ground every turn.
With hourmies, try the combination assault mentioned above- warriors are good for this, with wings or leaping so they can keep up. Probably leaping. Added bonus: 4+ cover save for the warriors!
Stealers are the win still, and even better with feeder tentacles. Not the best troops for holding an objective, but they take them pretty well.

In 5th Nids are slower from a small bug perspective and faster from a big bug perspective. So overall they are slower but everything can move together as a horde.

The wave tacitc is still alive though.

You use guants without number to shield everyone on the advance, then they die a recycle to hold your flank.

Behind them you have your stealers, then running big boyz and in the back field are your shooting elite carnies dropping down pie plates of doom.

Man that's a shame they got nerfed like that. So even hormies are pretty useless against armies full of quality units such as marines and chaos? Are warriors really that effective? They have died pretty quick the past couple of games...they are essentially space marines with two wounds...

Strong hormagaunts are still worth taking en masse...you just have to assault the right unit. The only time I assault something more powerful than troops with them is if I want a tarpit. They can last 2 turns in synapse reliably, and with really lucky rolling can still do some damage.

Best bet, though, is to head for the closest troops squad and unleash a brick of dice.

Be careful with the combination assaults. I know there is some debate on this ruling, but big guys who have No Retreat! are going to have to make a ton of armor saves when the swarm takes more wounds than models. In one game I played against Eldar, this meant two remaining spinegaunts and a Carnifex sticking around in a combat with Rangers and Yriel long enough for an entire squad of Scorpions to jump in and play.

Are you talking about the rule where the big guys would take the wounds even though the attacker rolled against the swarm? I thought I just misunderstood that ruling...apparently I had it right.

So this is my current army list for 1000pts, I designed it to not have shooting because I am playing in a team tournament with an eldar player and he is going to cover the shooting aspect. We each get 1000 pts.

Pts Unit Description
82 Broodlord Acid Maw
147(21) 7 Gene St. Feeder Tendrils Ext. Carapace
131 Hive Tyrant Wings, Scything Talons
142 Carnifex X2 scything talons, Ext Carapace, Tusks, Adrenal Glands
90(6) 15 Term. Fleshborder
96(6) 16 Term. Fleshborder
240 (12) 20 Horm Toxin Sacs
65 Zoanthrope Syn, Warp Blast

Should I make some changes to the gaunts in my army? Add genestealers or something like that?

Remember, Gaunts are not fearless, they are simply assumed to pass all morale tests when under synapse control. They will not take "fearless'"wounds. A carnifex, who has fearless, will.

Ah, so my gaunts wouldn't have had to make 10 armor saves for losing combat? I didn't think about that. Are you saying that if I have gaunts and a carnifex in cc with another unit and that unit wins by killing gaunts that the Carnifex can take wounds from being fearless?

Railguns wrote:Remember, Gaunts are not fearless, they are simply assumed to pass all morale tests when under synapse control. They will not take "fearless'"wounds. A carnifex, who has fearless, will.

Gaunts will still take wounds if they don't fall back because they don't have to take morale checks.

Drummerboy wrote:Ah, so my gaunts wouldn't have had to make 10 armor saves for losing combat? I didn't think about that. Are you saying that if I have gaunts and a carnifex in cc with another unit and that unit wins by killing gaunts that the Carnifex can take wounds from being fearless?

Carnifex will take wounds too. If I read the rules right (can't check right now) if you lose the combat by (say) 5 wounds then BOTH units will take five wounds - OUCH!

please correct me if I'm wrong

Man I don't understand where GW gets some of these rules from? This rule hurts both my tyranids and my orks as both rely on numbers and outside help to be good at hand to hand combat.

It says in the morale section under No Retreat!:

"It's not uncommon for units to be immune to Morale checks for losing an assault, or to automatically pass them for some reason. When such units lose a combat, they are... ...these units suffer a number of wounds equal to the number their side has lost the combat by(allocated as normal)."

So if I understand this correctly then Railguns isn't correct in his statement earlier and I am SOL.

Kapitan Montag wrote:
Carnifex will take wounds too. If I read the rules right (can't check right now) if you lose the combat by (say) 5 wounds then BOTH units will take five wounds - OUCH!

please correct me if I'm wrong

Drummerboy wrote:Man I don't understand where GW gets some of these rules from? This rule hurts both my tyranids and my orks as both rely on numbers and outside help to be good at hand to hand combat.

Yeah sorry I didn't remember the rules right
If you lose a combat by (say ) 5 wounds then the units who didn't retreat because they are immune to morale checks take 5 wounds between them "allocated as normal". (unless the unit fighting the carnifex was unable to wound it, in which case it does not recieve any wounds.)
Sorry to get you worried drummerboy - its not as bad as I thought

So what do nid players do now that seems to be effective? I use to almost always use the swarm tactic but if guants die so quickly I'm not sure that will work.

Swarms of junk will be swept away.

I prefer the shooty version and WoN on your gaunts. That keeps em coming back. The problem then is having hive mind to get them back into position.

The other real help to bugs is scuttling = scout and scout means outflank. That means genestealers entering off the short board edges even in you enemy's deployment zone.

A ravener+ gaunt assault might work but you are going to have to play with it.

I usually look for something like this...

Broodlord + 8 retinue. Infiltrate so they can outflank.

2 units of 5 shooty tyrannid warriors

2 lictors (great to help your little guys as they now hit on 3+ due to the feeder tendrils)

2 units of 16 spineguants with WoN

2-3 carnifexes with barbed stranglers

and then fill it out with genestealers with scuttle and anything else you like. (Again these outflank)

I also like 3 raveners... with devourers and talons. They move fast and the 6 shots apiece lightens the load on HTH.

Toying with synapse zoanthropes to spread the hive mind out.

Hormagaunts tricked out with +1 WS, +1I +1 S might work but we are not talking hoards here so don't count on them since they will be costing something like 14 points each.

The other debate is if it is now reasonable to spend the 1 point for the AC 5+ per gaunt. If you get stuck in those losing situations, now you can stick it out in HTH. Get 9 wounds in close combat and you only lose 6 instead of 8. So even if you only cause 2 kills. You only lose by 4 instead of 6 and probably lose 2 or 3 more. 9 dead versus 13 dead. Would have to play around with that though.

Ah okay, I was under the impression that "fearless wounds" actually applied to models with the Fearless USR but not other, not actually fearless but functionally similar models.

Guess I can quit painting gaunts now.

Man what a big change from the way I use to play...So is this why I see so many more MC armies? It would make sense to put more bigger tougher targets out to soak up the fire.

^ Correct, Railguns misread the rules on No Retreat!; creatures within synapse range are affected by it.

Hormagaunts are definitely still a viable choice in big numbers. I use the +1 I +1 S build. A squad of 30 runs at 390 points, so it's a bit of a sink, but usually an effective one. They hit first in most of the assaults I send them into, and usually do more wounds than the opponent. I would never add extended carapace to a gaunt; they are still bolter bait, and should never be running behind something that provides cover.

Termagants are best used in their cheapest mode (Spine), and Without Number. They are great for capping objectives and distracting your opponent.

I wouldn't totally give up on a swarm build. They aren't worth playing in tournaments because they take way too long, both in terms of movement speed and physically moving the models, and they are very fragile against proper 5th ed shooting--ignoring cover and tons of shots. Reconfigure your biomorphs and they may still be fun in casual play.

So in my 1000 pt list (above) would you suggest I drop some of the gaunts and add something else? If so what would it be? Bear in mind that I will have Eldar's shooting abilities behind me to help with the ranged stuff. Sorry I keep dragging this thread out, but I'm confused as to what happened to the horde armies that people use to play.

Railguns wrote:Ah okay, I was under the impression that "fearless wounds" actually applied to models with the Fearless USR but not other, not actually fearless but functionally similar models.

Guess I can quit painting gaunts now.

I just now noticed that last line...that's hilarious...I was just starting to think the same thing...

Kapitan Montag wrote:
Yeah sorry I didn't remember the rules right
If you lose a combat by (say ) 5 wounds then the units who didn't retreat because they are immune to morale checks take 5 wounds between them "allocated as normal". (unless the unit fighting the carnifex was unable to wound it, in which case it does not recieve any wounds.)
Sorry to get you worried drummerboy - its not as bad as I thought

Actually, it's five wounds to EACH unit on the losing side............... No allocation.

don_mondo, that seems like a rather silly rule...where can I find it in the rule book? I'm not saying your wrong, but I've read that section over like 3 times and I've missed it. If that is a rule, then GW has lost their mind IMO.

well. the word EACH is not used.
However it is not stated that the wounds are spread amoung units involved either.
This comes up often around me.

Drummerboy wrote:don_mondo, that seems like a rather silly rule...where can I find it in the rule book? I'm not saying your wrong, but I've read that section over like 3 times and I've missed it. If that is a rule, then GW has lost their mind IMO.

I'll post the relevant rule/section when I get home from work, but I believe that it's in the multiple combats section and says something like each losing unit involved suffers the cumulative negatives from the combat. Course, if someone with access to a rulebook beats me to it...........................

I don't think the book is very clear either way. It is a rule that they really need to FAQ; the rules are usually very good about handling all the ways assaults are changed by multiple combats. I expect that these nuances for the rule No Retreat! were overlooked because it is new.

Just make sure you discuss and agree with your opponents beforehand as to how you read the rule.


As for your list, Drummerboy, I would recommend giving the Termagants Without Number. Other choices are totally dependent on your playstyle. For instance, I prefer the Hormagaunts to have +1 I and +1 S. Also, I haven't fielded a Broodlord recently because they slow down the Genestealers so much. (No Fleet, just Run). And the Flying Hive Tyrant is pretty vulnerable.

Let us know how you do!

reading is tech

BGB wrote:When determining assault results in a multiple combat, total up the number of wounds inflicted to each side to see who is the winner.Every unit on the losing side has to check their Morale (They all use the same penalty as described in the Morale Section). (BGB, P41, Assault Results)

BGB wrote:It's not uncommon for units to be immune to Morale checks for losing an assault, or automatically pass them for some reason (they may have the 'fearless' special rule, be subject to a vow or some other special rule). When such units lose combat they are in danger of being dragged down by a vicious enemy despite their determination to hang on.

These units do not take Morale checks and will never suffer fall back. Indtead, these units suffer a number of wounds equal to the number their side has lost combat by (allocated as normal). (BRB, P44, No Retreat!)

emphasis mine.

the upshot of this is that every unit that loses combat will have to take a morale check. if they will not take a morale check for whatever reason then they will each suffer wounds equal to how much they lost by.

no ifs, no buts.