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MagickalMemories wrote:

Orlanth wrote:I can bleive thisrumour, Gw have been heavily investing in production technology, principally in order to keep a manufactiring base in the UK. Even when a lot of the competition is heading east for manufacture.

In this I have a lot of respect for GW.

I'm with you there. I give them a lot of credit for keeping jobs "at home" instead of sending them off. Hopefully, they'll stick with that.

That being said, it might be a smart investment for them to open a center over here, in the "midwest" to handle their North American (or North and South American) orders, and let the UK handle the rest of the world. It would save them money (Dollars being cheaper than Pounds), double their facilities and fill orders faster. If they had a faster response time and a slightly less expensive product, I'd imagine that their sales would shoot even higher, thus giving them more profit.

Eric

They have a Foundry in Maryland, I believe and unless it was just a dodgy rumour, I believe there are (were?) plans for one in Australia as well. Oz would cover itself and IndoChina, MAryland the Americas, with the UK covering the rest of the world.

prices would have to fall A LOT before I'd be interested, and that's after seeing the Ork Nob bikers.

On a related forgeworld note, Warhammer World store, though not exactly a typical store, is now selling Forgeworld stuff directly from behind the counter. No idea if that's a trial run for other shops or not.

Probably not. You've been able to buy from there for at least a few years now.

Indeed you have, but it's always been a "fill in an order form, then we'll run down to the factory and pick it up if they have it, if not, we'll have it delivered to you" job. Now, it's a "Rhino doors? Let me just open this box... there you go *scan*. Need any super glue?" type of affair. The change is quite a distinct one, from what was essentially a very fast mail order, to direct selling.

Still, it is probably a one off thing, given by the store's enviable location, but as it is my local store, it was quite a dramatic change. Another thing I had noticed that had changed actually, was a whole new section "Hobby Support" where you could buy assorted terrain bits and other gaming accessories (and came at the expensive of the Warhammer Fantasy shelf space no less...)

I'd also like to find out more details about this resin machine. It can't be something simple like a spin-casting setup, since that's what GW already uses for their metal casting. I don't think spin-casting works well with resin anyways. Any resin shop worth their salt already has a vacuum chamber for degassing prior to pouring.

In all honesty, I just don't see GW being too innovative in any of their processes. They're plastic manufacturing is leagues behind the rest of the model world in just about every category. I just can't see their resin shop suddenly getting the idea of jumping ahead in that regard.

Maybe some other method for making new molds faster? or more durable? That's always a huge time waster to make new molds as they wear out, and they wear out a lot faster than metal casting due to the chemical reactions.

And yeah, they definitely don't use the best actual resin either. It seems like there is a high amount of micro-balloons or some other filler mixed in to reduce cost.

-Hans

GW/Forge world has always been a non-automated affair and always will be.

Its just a way GW can make more money out of vetran gamers......

FW: NEW TITAN cost 1 squillion pounds!!!!!

Vet Gamer: Heck i'll buy one! and i'll have some extra weapon arms to boot!

FW: kur-ching!!

Their stuff is good, but as they only have like 1 staff member to run the whole operation, so when he is answering emails (not..lol) or answering phone calls (eventually) or casting models (badly) or packing parts (most of what you ordered!) how will he push the button marked "On"...............

More staff is what they need, not Machines!

From memory, I think there are (were, at least) 3 Casters in full time employment.

And the move towards automated can only be a good thing.

Agamemnon2 wrote:I assume you have vast experience in high-volume resin casting on which you base that assertion.

Yes, and not being a structural engineer, and I am clearly not qualified to point out the levees breaking under Katrina are evidence of the poor quality of the levees.

lord_blackfang wrote:No, but I have a fistful of resin bitz that I can't use because they are so badly cast. I don't need a diploma to see that whoever cast them didn't know what he was doing, and that the high and mighty Forgeworld doesn't have anything in the way of quality control, other than complaining and waiting a few weeks or months for replacements. Because apparently that is easier than examining the parts they cast before packing them up.

Shhh... that's crazy talk, good sir! If I didn't know better I'd think you were almost suggesting that your own personal observations of miscast figures were good enough to construct an valid opinion! Madness!

gorgon wrote:Although I also learned how much lower quality FW's resin is than the stuff I was using.

Oh God yes. The whole dark grey vs. light grey thing, and the little bubble things...

Agamemnon2 wrote:I can only assume FW buys their resin in bulk, desperate to cut corners, and opting for the cheapest and lowest-quality slag that will hold the detail they need for each individual job. They're frantically pounding a round peg into a Y-shaped hole with every model they make, being vastly too popular for their own good, and for their production model.

Or perhaps, they know they have us over a barrel, and we'll buy it anyway. Or we would, up until recently, when FW was unable to keep up wirth demand, and might have lost sales, or perhaps GW sales are down across the board and they need to cut costs or increase production.

Agamemnon2 wrote:An unenviable lot, really.

Yes, I too feel pain for publicly traded companies who make inferior quality products.

Agamemnon2 wrote: I can only suppose so many bad casts are let through because the order volume demands it.

I suppose it's done because GW clearly doesn't care about quality in any way, shape or form, and it's only now that GW's share price is (or was) in serious danger, that they feel prompted to do anything about it.

Face it, they know they have us over a barrel, and we'll buy it anyway.

Agamemnon2 wrote: Every part, no matter how poorly done, is sent out to fulfill the order of yet another angry consumer.

Always the hallmark of a quality company.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Personally, I doubt this is done by the people doing the casting, but rather by the people responsible for putting orders together, (supposedly) checking their contents and sending them out.

I doubt checking is done at all. If the piece is defective when it pops out, I'm sure they'll toss it, but sometime they send to a roof from one casting, and the house from another casting, neither of which fit each other, making the kit impossible to assemble.

Awesome!

Agamemnon2 wrote: Hypothetically, it wouldn't make sense to waste resin-casters' time-unit zots on something a mail order troll could do.

Less hypothetically, it would be nice if they didn't send out inferior quality products at all... Craziness, I know!...

Agamemnon2 wrote:I still maintain that it's not easy to cast resin at all, as anyone who's tried it will attest to.

I don't know, since there's this company called Armorcast, that seems to know a thing or two about it... But that's just my own personal opinion, which we all know is invalid since I lack a doctorate degree in little tiny toy making...

Agamemnon2 wrote:It's even harder to automate it. Even demoulding a piece can be beyond a machine's skill, given how fine and fragile the detail can be and how soft the mould. It's not like plastic where you can just use ejection pins to pop it out, or like metal where the part's hard enough to withstand being shaken loose. If indeed there is a way to make casting automation happen, I'd expect the Japanese would be the people to do it, as they seem to produce a staggering amount of very popular resin kits, a lot of them either anime/manga characters or girls in bikinis. Or both.

Who says it has to be automated? Who says it can't just be cast properly?

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

chris_valera wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:I still maintain that it's not easy to cast resin at all, as anyone who's tried it will attest to.

I don't know, since there's this company called Armorcast, that seems to know a thing or two about it... But that's just my own personal opinion, which we all know is invalid since I lack a doctorate degree in little tiny toy making...

You are right in pointing out that personal observations of miscast pieces form the basis for a valid argument, there's just the problem that I, for example, have personal observations of non-miscast pieces. You cannot, I posit, resolve the issue with duelling anecdotes.

To be sure, Forge World has shown us some of the worst commercial-grade resin casting I've ever seen, whereas many of their designs are really beautiful (the Death Korps range, etc.). Armorcast, while their moud-quality has gone up since those horrible 2E era superheavies, is still making kits that are vastly less complex than FW's (a lot of it's terrain pieces, etc, with a couple of minis (do they still make the Frost Wyrm?)).

Companies like Accurate Armour can produce quality beyond Forge World's for prices that are roughly in the same ballpark (to take an example, their model of the Vickers Independent costs £115). Hundreds of parts, intricate subassemblies, etc. I don't have an exact quote, but I understand they deliver faster, too. So what's the problem? For one thing, volume. I'd be flabbergasted if any of AA's models sold more than a few hundred copies, certainly not the 1100+ that a Chaos Warhound has done so far (provided the serial numbers on the CoAs are accurate). For another, most of these scale model resin kit makers aren't a part of a corporate structure. Many of even the larger of them are accurately termed "garage companies". The casters have day jobs, the business isn't expected to be extraordinarily profitable on its own merits, etc.

Right, now that I've said it, I'm sure someone will refute it with insight into resin casting companies at large, but c'est la vie. I'm not sure how Armorcast specifically fits into that mould, my hunch is that it's not a fulltime operation, but that's just that. They certainly have an easier time casting in general (big, solid scenery bits as opposed to tiny fiddly DK arms and heavy stubbers. I've not heard anything negative about them, either, but again, FW stuff is very popular in forums like this, and bad news travels fast here, so I don't know if that's significant to the apparent extent it's showing or not.

I suspect your final verdict of "Just don't give a gak" could be an accurate depiction of GW internals, yes. Personally, I can't submit to the "there's no alternatives" philosophy 100%, because to me at least, there are, and I'm trying to take advantage of them, a pursuit which I recommend to everyone disappointed with GW/FW practices. The barrel only exists for us if we let it.

So long, and sorry for the poor arguments in my previous message.

Agamemnon2 wrote:To be sure, Forge World has shown us some of the worst commercial-grade resin casting I've ever seen, whereas many of their designs are really beautiful (the Death Korps range, etc.). Armorcast, while their moud-quality has gone up since those horrible 2E era superheavies, is still making kits that are vastly less complex than FW's (a lot of it's terrain pieces, etc, with a couple of minis (do they still make the Frost Wyrm?)).

Keep in mind those "horrible" 2E superheavies were limited by legal restrictions and were limited in detail to the detail present on the Epic versions. The old Epic versions. Later GW said, build us a super-detailed super-heavy, Armorcast did, it sold well, and GW promptly yanked their license and started ForgeWorld.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Companies like Accurate Armour can produce quality beyond Forge World's for prices that are roughly in the same ballpark (to take an example, their model of the Vickers Independent costs £115). Hundreds of parts, intricate subassemblies, etc. I don't have an exact quote, but I understand they deliver faster, too. So what's the problem? For one thing, volume. I'd be flabbergasted if any of AA's models sold more than a few hundred copies, certainly not the 1100+ that a Chaos Warhound has done so far (provided the serial numbers on the CoAs are accurate).

Actually the fact that they sell loads is even more of a reason for them to produce quality product, scale of economy. But, oh wait, this is GW we're talking about. They know they clearly have us over a barrel and seee little reason to improve their production methods.

Agamemnon2 wrote:For another, most of these scale model resin kit makers aren't a part of a corporate structure. Many of even the larger of them are accurately termed "garage companies". The casters have day jobs, the business isn't expected to be extraordinarily profitable on its own merits, etc.

If resin companies are supposed to be garage companies, then maybe GW would be better served by not having FW be marketed as a typical model-making corporation. If you market yourself as a real company, they should be prepared to take some brickbats if the quality of the product is not up to snuff to that produced by a real model-making companies. Otherwise the message you're sending is, "Hurr, we say we're a real company, but really we're a couple of casters mucking about in a barn in the backyard of somone's house in Westminstershireburg! Hurr!"

Agamemnon2 wrote:Right, now that I've said it, I'm sure someone will refute it with insight into resin casting companies at large, but c'est la vie. I'm not sure how Armorcast specifically fits into that mould, my hunch is that it's not a fulltime operation, but that's just that. They certainly have an easier time casting in general (big, solid scenery bits as opposed to tiny fiddly DK arms and heavy stubbers. I've not heard anything negative about them, either,

If people like them, then that speaks volumes about the quality of material they produce then, doesn't it?

Agamemnon2 wrote:but again, FW stuff is very popular in forums like this, and bad news travels fast here, so I don't know if that's significant to the apparent extent it's showing or not.

FW is "popular" because it's currently the only game in town, aside from scratchbuilding. Wait, no it's not, which explains the giant jump in bidding on the old Armorcast pieces on eBay...

Agamemnon2 wrote:I suspect your final verdict of "Just don't give a gak" could be an accurate depiction of GW internals, yes. Personally, I can't submit to the "there's no alternatives" philosophy 100%, because to me at least, there are, and I'm trying to take advantage of them, a pursuit which I recommend to everyone disappointed with GW/FW practices. The barrel only exists for us if we let it.

What the hell does this even mean? Is there some other company making 40K-specific models? Aside from scratchbuilding?

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Agamemnon2 wrote:The barrel only exists for us if we let it.

*You* can take your turn "in the barrel", me, I'm going to continue scratchbuilding my stuff.

chris_valera wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:but again, FW stuff is very popular in forums like this, and bad news travels fast here, so I don't know if that's significant to the apparent extent it's showing or not.

FW is "popular" because it's currently the only game in town, aside from scratchbuilding. Wait, no it's not, which explains the giant jump in bidding on the old Armorcast pieces on eBay...

No kidding, Chris.

My buddy was trying to get a Dactylis the other day. A little resin slug. I figured, $50 would be plenty for it.

It went for over $150 on eBay.

That's a whole lotta of sculpting clay...

I'm glad I grabbed my Reaver Titan before people realized Apocalypse was actually going to happen. I got it for as much as that Dactylis.

I've heard of a resin casting machine, that pretty much allowed you to set up several molds on a rotating table inside a vacuum chamber. The machine has reservoirs for the two parts of the resin mixture and can mix the parts and than pour them into the mold, the table the molds on just rotated around to the resin nozzle. The main advantage I've heard is that it cuts down on the wasted resin since it uses a very accurate volume control for the mixing and pouring.

GW would do better to market FW in a more realistic light, but this is a corporation who thinks of itself as the "Mercedes Benz of miniatures", and thus are gripped with the mania to make it sound like some grand enterprise. The interpretation that FW is a garage outfit way out of its league is the charitable one, the alternative is that they're a big, competently managed business staffed by one-armed retards. I suppose I'm being kind.

chris_valera wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:I suspect your final verdict of "Just don't give a gak" could be an accurate depiction of GW internals, yes. Personally, I can't submit to the "there's no alternatives" philosophy 100%, because to me at least, there are, and I'm trying to take advantage of them, a pursuit which I recommend to everyone disappointed with GW/FW practices. The barrel only exists for us if we let it.

What the hell does this even mean? Is there some other company making 40K-specific models? Aside from scratchbuilding?

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

There's always alternatives. More and more manufacturers are making 28mm infantry models, in metal and plastic and it's possible we'll get to see vehicles in the same scale sooner or later. I've seen people make their own hierophants, Reaver titans and superheavy tanks. Sure, it's exceedingly hard (and most scratchbuilds I see suck horribly), but life has no obligation to be fair. So yes, unless you want to branch out to alternative games, GW will always have a monopoly on some aspects of the model line that can't be replicated by someone else, unless we happen to be gifted with our hands.

Me, I'm gaming less and less just so I can paint more models from more companies. That's what works for me, not so much for other people, I'm sure. Eventually I'll end up painting and converting for display only, but at least I won't be the guy over a barrel, as you so succinctly put it, getting porked from behind by a company run by idiots.

My WIP desk has Rough Riders, Empire Pistoliers, two Mercenary Warjacks, a PanOceania knight, half a dozen Foundry Street Violence figures and a FW Arvus Lighter. I'd like to think some of those other companies are better than GW/FW, but given the nature of business, that's a slim chance.