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If the Bone'Ead had the option to take a power weapon and Ogryn were BS5 instead of 6, I would use Ogryn as HBMC described.

I could work with that as well, although it conflicts with the AP4.

Didn't rippergun used to have the description of being a full auto shogun?

Well I said it before I'll say it again ripper gun: S5 AP6 Assault 2

frazzled wrote:Whats wrong with T5? Make them akin to Tyrant guard or just slightly weaker (with appropriate cost). The Ogryn models in WFB are appropriately sized. Make Ogryns mini MC's (with appropriate price). It makes them different than rough riders, very fluffy, and a non-standard unit.

I was just voicing that I thought if there were an alternative to making them T5 that would be my first choice. I have since come to the conclusion their isn't. T5 is good I think it suits Ogryns in all regards and is perfectly fair as long as they maintain their 5+ save.

Frazzled wrote:HBMC, why not put the ripper guns/BS in line with Orks?

Orks have trouble hitting with machine guns. Ogryn don't miss because their Machine Guns fire so many shots.

I am basing this off 2nd Ed, where Ripper Guns had a stupidly short range, and at 6" Auto-Hit their targets. Now we can't have autohit, but BS3(6) - or 5 if you want - represents that about as best as I can in this edition of the rules. It also only applies to Ripper Guns, so if you go and give your Bone 'Ead a Storm Bolter or Plasma Pistol, he's BS3.

BYE

I like HBMC's Ogryns, and his new avitar, very shway. The points seem balanced to the stats, the increased toughness and attacks, initiative too, all makes more sense. As for the BS3(6), not sure if that's prudent. More shooting would be reflected in the number of rounds from the weapon (only Ogryns can take Ripper Guns), so either increase those shots, or just take all the other benefits and be happy about them. Ripper gun looks good, maybe Assault 3 instead of 2. Let Bone 'eads have powerfists (it is only one powerfist that actually matters in all of the Imperial Guard, come on!) at regular cost, and I would be content, Ogryns would be highly regarded, and the Imperial Guard will benefit all around. The only instance I could see an issue is in Mega Battles or Apocalypse Battles, where the near unlimited number of their squads (I have been told there is a section outlining an Ogryn army too?) might throw off their points balance... meaning they might even be too cheap enmasse.

I wouldn't worry about Apoc when it comes to balancing choices. Apoc is inherently unbalanced, and just because you can take 50 Bone 'Eads in an Apoc game doesn't mean you should penalise one Bone 'Ead in a standard 1850 game.

BYE

I also think that the Bone Ead SHould be WS5. Just like many of the leaders in the marines codex. Other than that HBMC's idea is not bad at all. Closely matches my suggestion.

I'm thinking something of Ogryns as lesser Monstrous Creatures.

Ogryn: WS4 BS2 S5 T4 W2 I3 A3(4) Ld8 Sv4+
Feel No Pain, Eternal Warrior, Stupid (Stubborn)

Squad = 3 to 10 models, 22 pts each

Ripper Gun = R12" S4 AP6 Assault 3 Rending; counts as CCW
Ripper Blade = Rending CCW


My basic idea was to make them cheap but very nasty up close:

BS2 because they shouldn't be encouraged to shoot
S5 as they're going to be Rending
T4 as they're just big humans
W2 to keep the points costs down
A3 Ld8 Sv4+ because they need to be Assault troops

FNP and EW keep them in the fight instead of giving T5.

Rending removes the need for the +1S, and lets them clean up like they should.

Seems you are good at something DD after all - you're the king of understatements.

So, "just big humans". Never seen an Ogryn model up close before have you? They're about as "just big humans" as Hive Tyrants are "just big Gaunts".

Besides, even if we ignore all that, the single problem that remains with Ogryn is the fact that despite having W3 they are as fragile as anything. Adding FNP does nothing to solve that problem, because the things that are wiping them out quickly now will ignore the FNP.

T5 is the only answer, other than making them Eternal Warriors or giving them a 4+ Invul save, both of which make no sense.

BYE

JohnH.
Respectively. While I am ok with your format (and pricing is appropriate), I prefer a BS2/S5/T5 combo:
*It follows fluff where Ogryns are portrayed as large, extremely, tough, and extremely strong. I am also referencing the FW chaos ogryns that are wielding items such as pulled out street signs.
*Gaming. Its something more unusual. It’s a very tough, uncommon unit that does damage in HTH. Their strengths are balanced via points cost and lack of power weapons.
*It sets it apart more from the rough riders, which are currently cheaper power weaponed counter assault. This is a higher valued higher priced counterpart to that.
*Rippa gun. Although I prefer a short ranged assault heavy bolter I could also see the argument of lesser effectiveness but higher defacto WS due to the spray effect. I would not give this an AP bonus however as its anti-theme (aka a wide spray pattern weapon does not have armor penetrative capacity by its very nature-birdshot vs. slugs).

HBMC: I can see the ET/FNP combo (especially in concerns the price per unit). However for the reasons above I too agree with a T5 construct.

@ HBMC : Obviously.

@ DD : Your suggestion is terrible... Eternal Warrior seems to fill the bill pretty well, but making them lose a wound just makes them easier to knock off, even with Eternal Warrior. Fell No Pain is usefull, but considering what would be used on Ogryns, then it becomes a moot option.

The more we discuss this, the more I am in agreeance that T5 IS the only option, in addition to the other points already made. It would be nice to see Rending get applied to either the Ogryn Close Combat Weapon/Rippergun in close combat, or to the Rippergun itself when firing (that's a big freakin' shotgun!).

Frazzled wrote:HBMC: I can see the ET/FNP combo (especially in concerns the price per unit). However for the reasons above I too agree with a T5 construct.

I'm not saying that wouldn't work, I'm saying that it makes no sense, or, really, less sense.

See, Ogryn really should be getting insta-killed by things like Krak Missiles and Lascannons. It'd be odd if they could shrug them off but Terminators couldn't (and Termies need T4(5) W2, but that's a story for another thread), however, if they can be Insta-killed by S8, then they cease to be effective as a HTH combat unit. This is the "Ogryn Problem", and as I've said whenever it comes up, there is no perfect solution to this.

The three I've tried:

1. 4+(I) save for the unit (a 'Faiff in Da Empruh' save).
2. Immunte to Instant Death (w/ or w/o Feel No Pain).
3. Toughness 5.

The first one is, honestly, the easiest to justify from a fluff perspective. The Emperor is supposed to manifest himself in miraculous ways, so I could see strong (dumb?) faith in the Emperor giving a level of protection. Problem is, as a solution to the Ogryn problem, it really isn't. It just means it takes 2 power fists hits to kill one rather than 1. They're still glass hammers. Slightly better glass hammers yes, but glass hammers nonetheless.

Option 2 certainly solves the problem, instantly, but... come on... Land Raider goes pop to a Railgun 25% of the time... and it takes three shots from one to off an Ogryn? No. While this does get rid of the fragility issue, it makes them too tough, because while we can live with them shrugging off Krak Missiles, we shouldn't even contemplate them shrugging off Railgun and Demolisher Cannon hits.

Option 3 is the best of a bad lot. Yes, we're left with the odd situation where a Lascannon or Meltagun won't kill one in a single shot, but at least they can survive a round of combat against an opponent who brings a fist and something that absolutley should be killing them - S10 weapons like Dreads, Kanz, Demolisher, Railguns, Warbosses - will kill them in a single hit.

This is the reason I side with the T5 idea, because it is the only one that comes close to solving the "Ogryn Problem" without compromising too much else.

BYE

I once suggested that Ogryn could have a "Resoundingly Tough" special rule, that, effectively, makes them T4.5. They are only effected by instant death by weapons of S9 or higher, such as lascannons.

Yeah, it's either that or something clunky like "EW when in close combat".

@Frazz: either way, Ogryns are still a problem unit. They've got these huge Ripper Guns, rather than a pure HtH build.

I'd rather bias them more towards a HtH build, so at least they fight well when they get stuck in. And that means 4+ attacks per model.

At range 12", I'm not quite sure how many players are going to use their Ogryns as a shooty force. One foot ranges are really for units that move to assault but end up just a bit short for it. Now, with the Run option instead of shooting, you may not even see Ripper Guns being used much at all! That is not saying I abdicate AP4 Ripper Guns, though. Besides, what assault weapons do other shooty forces get? There are plenty out there with better weapons, Dark Eldar come to mind.

Hi guys, here's my take on the Ogryns:

(0-1 Elite choice)
Ogryn, 25 points
WS: 4 BS: 2 S: 5 T:4(5) W:2 I:3 A:2 Ld:8 Sv: 5+

Ogryn Bone ‘Ead. +10 points (Up to 1 model may take this upgrade)
WS: 4 BS: 3 S:5 T:4(5) W:3 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv: 5+

Unit Composition: Between 5 and 10 Ogryns.

Wargear: Flak Armor, Ripper Guns, Frag Grenades

Ogryn Bone ‘Eads may take a power weapon for +5 points, a Power Fist for +25 points, carapace armor for +5 points, or heavy armor for +25 points.

Ripper Guns: Str 4 Ap5 Range: 12” Assault 3. These guns are essentially souped up shotguns. If this weapon would ignore a model’s armor save, add 2 to the Str of this weapon. Also, as they are solid chunks of metal in addition to being a weapon, they give Ogryns the special rule Furious Charge.

Special Rules:
Adrenaline Rush: Ogryns live for combat, as they don’t really have any other use! When in combat, Ogryns have a toughness of 5 instead of 4. In combat, the toughness of 5 is used for instant death purposes.
Bulky: Ogryns are large abhumans. As such, in transports they count as 2 models.

(Heavy Armor gives the Ogryn Bone ‘Ead a 3+ save)
----

Okay, so that was my take. These guys can still be insta-gibbed by Lascannons and whatnot, but Str 8 will not instant kill them anymore.

Normal Ogryns have BS2, but their guns are Assault 3. To represent the Bone 'Ead being smarter, I have given it BS3, and some other stat boosts. Being shotguns, they don't have really good AP, but if they hit you, you're dead as they have Str 6 when they pierce armor, to represent that "punch" that shotguns have.
They're kind of big Orks, really. This is quite honestly how I see them though, to be totally honest.

Feel free to rip this apart.

It's not a bad rule set really, but S8 weapons would still inta-kill out of close combat, and you reduced their number of wounds to 2, which doesn't make much sense considering they have always had W3 and comparable models have W3. BS2 instead of 3 doesn't help your arguement, as the Rippergun is supposed to compensate by having a high ROF, though that's not a big deal when you boost the number of shots to 3. Still over-priced however, and the extra special rules don't really help, but do add some flavor.

Ogryn, 24 points/model
WS 4 BS 3 S 5 T 5(4) W 3 I 2 A 2 Ld 9 Sv 5+

Ogryn Bone ‘Ead.
WS 4 BS 3 S 5 T 5(4) W 3 I 3 A 3 Ld 10 Sv 5+

Unit Composition: Between 5 and 10 Ogryns. One Ogryn may be upgraded to Bone' Ead at +10 points.

Wargear: Flak Armor, Ripper Guns.

Ripper Guns: 12" Str 5 AP 5 Heavy 4.

Special Rules:
Furious Charge, Stubborn, Relentless
Tough: Ogryns count as Toughness 4 for all purposes, except for calculating Instant Death, where they are treated as Touhgness 5.
Bulky: Each Ogryn takes up two spaces in a transport.

@Vlad: There is nothing "broken" nor Fluff-rare to suggest that Ogryns need a 0-1 restriction. Indeed, Ogryns could be made Scoring, and they'd still be fair.

@MinMax: I still don't see the need for big Guardsmen with HEAVY 4 guns. BS2 with Assault 4 guns would be better. Also, let them *fight*!

JohnHwangDD wrote:@MinMax: I still don't see the need for big Guardsmen with HEAVY 4 guns. BS2 with Assault 4 guns would be better. Also, let them *fight*!

Well, that's why they have Relentless. They treat Heavy weapons as Assault.

Right, but why make the gun Heavy and then give Relentless, when it's easier to make it Assault and not bother with a USR?

The fewer rules you need, the better, I think.

Do you guys mind if this one throws his hat into this mix?

well lets take a step back and look at this from a more fluffy perspective.

1. Ogryns are essentially humans who have lived on high gravity worlds through the course of generations.

2. Your Average Ogryn is a huge monster compared to a guardsman.

3. They are kind of devolved into like ape like people with huge muscles (some of the models have huge bandages on the face that would probably be the size of the face of a guardsman.

4. Orgryns are bigger then most orks except the Warboss.

Now lets look it from a more gaming perspective.

1. They are essentially the same price as at least third edition terminators (I don't actually own much of the newer stuff but I know what I am tlaking about so bare with me!)

2. killed very easily by weapons that are 8 or higher

3. They are shock troops yet very rarely do they prove their worthfulness

4. Guns suck.

Ok so knowing all of that what conclusions can we come up with.

well since Ogryns are priced as Terminators shouldn't they be as useful as terminators? like if I was to pit a Ogryn up against a Terminator shouldnt it be a stand still? IT SHOULD because afterall the guards had to pay for it with the same amount of points.

T4 is perfect for the Ogryn because fluff wise they really are just overgrown humans and they don't have the tough green skin that Orks do.

When I think of the Ogryn I can just imagine an Ogryn getting shot at with a missle and he just grabbing it and throwing it into the ground, unfortunatly the rules do not reflect this!

They need better close combat rules after all whenever I see those models I am thinking "boy wouldn't want to F*** with them" but they just seem to make all the orks laugh even though an Ogryn should make the Green skins run away in fear

Their guns suck and so they should afterall they aren't geared for shooting the Rats are.

So Coming to this conclusion I have a new set of rules, please feel free to criticize.

Ogryn Pts WS BS S T W I A Ld armor
23 5 3 5 4 2 3 3(4) 8 6+/4+* see below

SPECIAL RULES:

You's poke yer eye out wit dat thing!: During the Assault Phase when the Ogryn unit is in combat with an enemy unit the Ogryns may attempt to stop their opponents attacks (this could represent grabbing their arms, taking the weapons or other ways os brutal thuggary). After your opponent declares his number of attacks each Ogryn model may choose to give up one of his attacks take away one of his opponents. If you choose to do this then the Ogryns attack will be reduced to two for the remainder of the turn (without charging). Roll a D6 for each attempt on a roll of 4+ your Ogryn succeeded in grabbing the poor buggers arm (or what have you) on a 3 or less then the model managed to avoid the attempt. If your opponent has powerfists then no D6 is needed (they are much too slow to charge up the fist to be able to stave off the attack effectivly). If your opponent has Initiative 6 or higher or Strength 6 or higher then this cannot be attempted (The Opponent is either too quick to grab or strong enough to get out of the creatures grasp).

(I've decided on this rule because I can just picturing an Ogryn unit treating their smaller opponents as if they were nothing)

Ripper Gun: This gun is known for its fame amongst Ogryn units and even though its a huge weapon many Ogryn use them as if they are Lasguns. When in close comabt however the Ripper Gun is a deadly weapon that is likely to knock an opponent unconcious just by the mere size of it. Therefore whenever a Ripper Gun is used in close combat it always wound on a 3+ and reduces an opponents armor save by 1 (imagine getting hit with one of these in armor!). In the Hands of an Ogryn however these weapons become even more deadlier and Ogryns therefore get +1 attack as they have trained with these weapons and know quite well how to use them.


Ripper Gun Range Strength AP Type
18" 4 6 Assault

( I think the guns should have increased range but should be geared more towards close combat)

Fleet of Foot: As in the Warhammer rule book

(They are big so shouldnt their steps be large?)

Keep your heads down!: Ogryns are big, very big, and therefore are able to see things like Lascannon blasts and Rokkets espcially when they are flying right at em. Ogryns well attempt to dodge away from these things. Therefore to represent this whenever an Ogryn is shot at by a heavy weapon (not mounted on a Tank) then they get a 4+ Invulranble save to represent the Ogryn avoiding the attack.

(This should be necessary to prevent heavy weapons fire from enemy infantry that would instant kill them)


So there you go some rules might be a little bit overdone and others a little bit underdone but the major points are

Ogryns are not Orks
Ogyrns are geared for CC
and Ogryns are the same price as Terminators for the Emperor's sake they should be as tough for that price!

I also wanted to make Ogryns playable again, I think people should look at them as shock troops or even defensive close combat units that you can use to help hold your lines. Ogryns look like monsters and I will be the first to say I think I would stand up better against an Ork then an Ogryn and rules should represent that. There should also be a doctrine that allows you to field more Ogryn if you come from a high gravity world like they get their points reduced to 18 and they lose one attack but they must be a mandatory troop choice in that army? anyways for another thread....

I'm not one to favour a special rule heavy unit myself.

I think the easiest solution would be to cut their cost in half and reduce them to 2 wounds, anti tank weapons and powerfists can still insta kill them but the unit will have 25% more wounds for the same price and instant death will inflict 33% less wounds. Maybe add an additional attack as well.

I'm also in favout of allowing them a squad support weapon, say a heavy flamer as that feels appropriate for them.

Jack

Hmmm...

Taking another look at it:

(0-2 Elite)

Ogryn, 22 points
WS: 4 BS: 2 S: 5 T:4(5) W:2 I:3 A:2 Ld:8 Sv: 5+

Ogryn Bone ‘Ead. +10 points (Up to 1 model may take this upgrade)
WS: 4 BS: 3 S:5 T:4(5) W:3 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv: 5+

Unit Composition: Between 5 and 10 Ogryns.

Wargear: Flak Armor, Ripper Guns, Frag Grenades

Ogryn Bone ‘Eads may take a power weapon for +5 points, a Power Fist for +25 points, carapace armor for +5 points, or heavy armor for +25 points. Also, Ogryn squads led by a Bone 'Ead is a scoring unit.

Ripper Guns: Str 4 Ap5 Range: 12” Assault 4. These guns are essentially souped up shotguns. If this weapon would ignore a model’s armor save, add 2 to the Str of this weapon. Also, as they are solid chunks of metal in addition to being a weapon, they give Ogryns the special rule Furious Charge.

Special Rules:
Stubborn.
Adrenaline Rush: Ogryns live for combat, as they don’t really have any other use! When in combat, Ogryns have a toughness of 5 instead of 4. In combat, the toughness of 5 is used for instant death purposes.
Bulky: Ogryns are large abhumans. As such, in transports they count as 2 models. In addition, since Ogryns are incredibly huge, ranged weapons with a Str of 8 only inflict 1 wound against Ogryns, and weapons with a Str of 9 or higher only inflict 2 wounds.

(Heavy Armor gives the Ogryn Bone ‘Ead a 3+ save)

Let's try again, starting with base statlines:

IG Ogryn WS4 BS2 S4(5) T4 W2 I3 A3 Ld8 Sv4+ Rippergun (S4 AP- A3 Rending) w/ Furious, Rending, Stubborn

Now compare:
SM4 Scout WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1(2) Ld8 Sv4+ BP&CCW = 13 pts w/ Infiltrate, Scout

-1 pt for BS2
+1 pt for S5
+3 pts for W2
-1 pts for I3
+2 pts for A3
+2 pts for Rippergun
+3 pts for extra USR
-2 for NOT Scoring

Based on a (old, underpriced) SM Scout, an Ogryn should cost 20 pts.


Now compare with a Generic Daemon

CSM Daemon WS4 BS0 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld10+ Sv5++ CCW = 13 pts Summoned, Fearless, Invulnerable

+2 for BS2
+3 for W2
-1 for I3
-2 for Ld8
+1 for Sv4+
+2 pts for A3
+3 for Rippergun
0 for rules
-2 for NOT Scoring

This gives a cost of 19 pts for an Ogryn.


So I think we should be looking at Ogryns in the 15 to 20 pt range. More than 20 pts probably is too expensive. At that point, you're talking about an Assault Marine or Raptor.

Here is the solution to the instant death problem:

Bulky. In close combat all hits from one model that is not a monsterous creature of a vehicle must be allocated to a single Ogryn.

OR (the same thing)

Bulky. In close combat all hits from any one infantry, jump infantry, cavalry or bike model must be allocated to a single Ogryn.

How it works.

Missile launchers and lascannon kill them as normal.
Dreads kill them as normal
Deffrollas kill them as normal.
(essentially) Terminators kill them as normal - due to massed powerfists

But a guy with a powerfist/klaw cannot leap about from Ogryn to Ogryn killing them all, being big they are hard to get around, you often need to meak as sidestep if one falls and are more widely spaced out.

I think a simpler rule is T4(5)

Tough: Ogryns count as T5 in close combat. Dreadnaughts, Deffrollas, and Monstrous Creatures are usually S5+ with Powerfists anyhow, so the problem is solved. No point making a rule that can become complicated when people look for exceptions or where things don't perfectly fit. If the Ogryn is taking wounds from close combat during the assault phase, they are T5.

We still have an exception to an exception. They're T5, except they're not, because they're T4(5), except in combat that is, where they are T5.

It's just so much simpler for them to be T5 and be done with it.

BYE

Agreed.