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themandudeperson wrote:We've lost our heavy weapons in tactical squads unless we field 10 men.

Actually, you've still got it. A cursory read of the new codex reveals that you can pay for a tactical squad and it counts as one troops choice (with heavy weapons et al) and then split it into 2 combat squads during deployment for no penalty.

Shrike78 wrote:No trait system, the one thing that gave really intriguing fluff, and flavor to an otherwise bland army fielding lots of the.

I don't disagree that some of the flavour has left the Marine Codex, but don't think of this as something that the Marines are suffering alone. I'm also a Chaos player, and I own quite a few models - 30,000 points worth to be exact - with lots of sections that made up different Legion armies (I can field Death Guard, World Eaters, Word Bearers, Lost and the Damned and Iron Warriors all simultaneously if I want to - I could probably even squeeze an Alpha Legion army in there if I wanted to), so I am no stranger to armies losing their flavour.

However, the Trait System, as an actual set of rules, was a bad set of rules. Wonderful concept, and just like the Guard Doctrines they were a fantastic idea to throw some real variety and flavour into what had typically been a rather standard list, but the execution was horrific.

The problem with the Trait System, and the Guard Doctrine system as well, is that the choices given are an illusion. The idea that you have to 'give something up' in order to take a Trait/Doctrine is a complete myth.

In the case of the Guard, we have 'Restricted Units', which are units you 'lose' when you choose to play a Doctrine Army. This is a joke because if you weren't going to take those units anyway (and most people didn't, as 95% of them were junk anyway, like Advisors and Ogryn), then you don't lose anything.

For Marines, the 'We Stand Alone' disadvantage was also a joke. Get something cool, and then as a disadvantage you can't take allies. If you weren't going to take allies in the first place, you basically gain something but lose nothing. And then there was that one that made you lose 1 Elite, 1 FA and 1 HS. That was a 'minor' disadvantage. What were they thinking there?

I don't disagree that the Trait System was a good thing to have - I really love the idea - it's just the way they did it that leaves so much to be desired, and as such I am glad to see it, in the form we had, gone from the Codex.

Shrike78 wrote:No heavy/special weapons in small squads.

Not specifically native to this Codex though - this is a change that's affecting all Codices. It's happened with Chaos (who, for some reason, now also follow the Codex Astartes when it comes to weapon choices), it happened with Dark Angels, Blood Angels and it even happened with Orks (1 weapon per 10 guys). It doesn't make it right or good, I'm just pointing out that this isn't a downgrade for the Marines alone - everyone suffers here.

And it's just the players suffering as GW takes their hamfisted rules design abilities and uses them in the same way you might use a nuke to kill an ant - the over application of force to achieve a simple goal.

In their minds, the problem was 5-man Las/Plas Squads. There is such a simple fix to that - you can take one special or HW in a 5 man unit, but require 10 to take both. No, no, they had restrict heavy weapons to 10 only, and then make half of them free just to entice us away from Lascannons. It's really stupid, horribly clumsy and compeltely unecessary. Sure, my solution means that we'd now get 5-man Lascannon squdas rather than 5-man Las/Plas Squads, but it cuts down on the problem without creating so many alternate rules (ie. current Marine Tac Squads).

Shrike78 wrote:Techmarines got nerfed... badly

Don't disagree there.

Shrike78 wrote:No more unique options for vehicles, or sergeants, or HQ units. just what's on the page next to the entry.

Like the restrictions on special/heavy weapons, Marines are not alone here. The Wargear list is a thing of the past. I don't like it - I think a unified weapon list is a much better idea than redundant entries and possible different costs on different units for no reason - but it's not a Marine-only thing.

Shrike78 wrote:HQ units are way more expensive, and give fewer bonus's on an army wide scale, meaning shrike, Lysander, Pedro, Calgar, Khan, Vulkan, and the rest are going to be seen in many, if not most armies, meaning "Oh! you have Lysander!" will turn into "oh... you have Lysander"

I have been quite vocal about my dislike of the current trend with Special Characters altering your list on a fundamental level. There are business reasons behind it (make Special Characters attractive so that people go and buy them), but it doesn't make it sit any better with me, even if I do accept their reasons (GW are a business after all, and moreover they're a miniatures company, not a rules company).

But it's not a Marine thing. Chaos has this. Orks have this. Dark Angels suffer because of this. Actually, of all the recent Codices, the Marines suffer the least from this, as they can get Bikes as Troops just by sticking their Captain on a bike, which is hands down the best rule in the Codex. Beats the Dark Angels need to always bring the ONLY Jetbike left to EVERY battle.

And if, when you say army-wide scale bonuses, you mean the 'Rites of War' rule that Masters gave in the last Codex, good riddance. That rule was one of the most abusive things in the book.

Shrike78 wrote:From the standpoint of a Chapter trait junkie.... I'm en pissed

I mentioned my Chaos army, well I also have a Guard army. It's the same size as my Chaos army, and I'm not looking foward to the removal of Doctrines. I hold out hope that Doctrines will remain in some sort of overall platoon upgrade (and not be tied to friggin' Special Characters - that would make me furious), but given that Marines lost virtually all of that, it's a small hope.

No doubt many Guard players, myself included, are both looking forward to and dreading the new Guard Codex with equal measure.

BYE

Kaej wrote:Actually, you've still got it. A cursory read of the new codex reveals that you can pay for a tactical squad and it counts as one troops choice (with heavy weapons et al) and then split it into 2 combat squads during deployment for no penalty.

So other than the fact that you need to field and therefore pay for the additional 5 guys, yeah, it's exactly the same as the old 5-man squads.

*glares*

Kaej... did you read your own post before you hit submit?

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:Thank goodness Purity Seals have gone away. With Purity Seals molded onto half of the legs, it's hard not to have them on models. And WYSIWYG only makes it more obnoxious.

Are you saying that you've actually experienced an argument, or even slight tension, involving purity seals on marines and WYSIWYG?

few posts down...
Should the Whirlwind be Heavy 2/TL by that logic as well? Or are missiles big, heavy munitions that possibly need to be transported in something, like, say, a missile launcher tube?

Aether,
By comparison to Honour Guard, command squads are definitely superior at destroying tanks. Let's look at this fluff-wise again, because that's what stops everything being exactly the same:

Honour Guard are a close-combat oriented bodyguard. They have awesome CCWs. They have the freaking chapter banner. Hordes? They can ALL have auxiliary grenade launchers - they provide their own artillery support. Nothing chops up other marines like 'em. Toughness 5 is still a bit tougher, but no FnP vs. Power Weapons. You would have to be nuts not to shoot the hell out of them, but AP 3 weapons suddenly STILL aren't that great, and they're more mobile than terminators (and while not as flexible, not quite as expensive). If you want to pay over a hundred points for three wounds, good luck to you.

Command Squads are a little more flexible. They represent the leadership of a specific company. They can't all have power weapons for the same points, but they have a wider variety of toys in general, + FnP. Feel No Pain means that, barring rule exceptions, you ignore wounds 50% of the time. Including attached characters. This at least helps them hold their small numbers until they can engage the two-power-klawed-whatever command git on the other side of the battle line. They can manhandle tanks if equipped properly, and you can kit them out for assault - that's what all of those veteran attacks are for. Honour Guard get more chops from their banner, but the Command Squad can let rip with combi-meltas.

That's why Honour Guard can only hurt tanks from the rear, with kraks, if they're lucky. GW thinks that powerfists on HQ choices are a great idea.

The End.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Shrike78 wrote:HQ units are way more expensive, and give fewer bonus's on an army wide scale, meaning shrike, Lysander, Pedro, Calgar, Khan, Vulkan, and the rest are going to be seen in many, if not most armies, meaning "Oh! you have Lysander!" will turn into "oh... you have Lysander"

I have been quite vocal about my dislike of the current trend with Special Characters altering your list on a fundamental level. There are business reasons behind it (make Special Characters attractive so that people go and buy them), but it doesn't make it sit any better with me, even if I do accept their reasons (GW are a business after all, and moreover they're a miniatures company, not a rules company).

But it's not a Marine thing. Chaos has this. Orks have this. Dark Angels suffer because of this. Actually, of all the recent Codices, the Marines suffer the least from this, as they can get Bikes as Troops just by sticking their Captain on a bike, which is hands down the best rule in the Codex. Beats the Dark Angels need to always bring the ONLY Jetbike left to EVERY battle.

And if, when you say army-wide scale bonuses, you mean the 'Rites of War' rule that Masters gave in the last Codex, good riddance. That rule was one of the most abusive things in the book.

Aww... shucks... I loved that rule!

Rites of battle+counter attack?= rapid fire death, then 3 attacks when the enemy charges... oh yeah.

Anyways. One rule that I really like in this new codex is the one that allows armies with bike mounted captains to take bikers as troop choices.

Now why can't we have that for Jump packs? Or terminator armor? You could make your own death wing, or BA army, which would be cool. There would have to be adjustments to the options of said armies, but It wouldn't be too hard to make rules, similar to the aforementioned captain biker rule, that would satisfy the disgruntled masses of the trait junkies. But then again, if you did something like that, then you would basically have the trait system... :S

Now for more comments.

I think that they have made the librarian way too good. Though he is super expensive, the gate of infinity+sternguard+null zone= death for anyone involved. And a bare bones librarian is only 150 points.

Vanguard should have the jump packs reduced to 5 points a pop. If not, they simply are not cost effective, and they are imho, one of the coolest units currently running around the new codex.

They should allow any vehicle to take Power of the machine spirit, but make it around 35-40 points, to make it only good on very specific tanks (like vindicators)

Scouts should have locator beacons. Their job is recon, so giving them items that, according to the fluff, send location data to the drop pods, is an obvious choice.

The sternguard are... well... almost too good. They are really cool, they have great fluff, and their rules follow said fluff, but they're just a bit too good. As I said, with the librarian, they are too good, but without him, they would become similar to terminators.

More units should have access to LR transports. Vanguard for one, Sternguard, All HQ choices. It just makes sense, elite units should not be limited to a relatively mediocre vehicle. To all those who are concerned about LR spam, you just don't have the points to make an effective SM army with that many raiders.

I really like how heroes have been designed so that they can be used in any army. However, I think that the upgrades for the regular HQ's should be considerably less. EG, Tigurius is 80 points more than the closest (in similarity) librarian one can design, that significant a point difference is there because Tigurius is REALLY ing GOOD! SO are all of the other special characters, and the points cost should reflect this.

The thing I find most perplexing is that Tiggy has 2 wounds... so odd considering when he first showed up he had 4, as did all Chief Librarians.

But now I'm getting nostalgic.

And speaking of Librarians, do the comparison between a Chaos Sorcerer w/2 Powers (the cheapest ones you can buy) and a Librarian w/2 Powers. The Librarian is cheaper, can cast two powers a turn, and has better powers. For his troubles he loses a 5+(I) save... but can get a 3+ one with a Storm Shield!

And the current combination of Gate/Null Zone and then using Drop Pod Locator Beacons to bounce around the table with a unit of Sternguard is just crazy..>

BYE

But it gets nastier with Tigurus, cause you teleport, deny invulerable saves their true effectiveness. Then do either a str 5ap 3 template of doom, a str10 ap1 template of DOOM, 4 str 4 ap 2 shots of almost doom, glance a vehicle if, for some reason, you just can't touch it with the meltas that your sternguard SHOULD HAVE!!!! Or you give his squad 5++ saves.

Wow... I'm kinda off topic, sorry mister OP

I feel so terrible sometimes since I miss all this new stuff. Makes me upset that I play SW still. But its alright, because I retain alot of my goodies that were lost, or changed in the new SM Codex, and I still get some cool bonuses too.

Still. I want some Sternguard or Vanguard veterans really bad....

Shrike78 wrote:Anyways. One rule that I really like in this new codex is the one that allows armies with bike mounted captains to take bikers as troop choices.

Now why can't we have that for Jump packs? Or terminator armor?

Good question!

Shrike78 wrote:You could make your own death wing, or BA army,

Better answer!

Arctik_Firangi wrote:That's why Honour Guard can only hurt tanks from the rear, with kraks, if they're lucky.

Actually, you can kit them out with relic blades, if you're so inclined... so they can get all those attacks at str 6 and carve up most vehicles nicely. Pricey, but str 6 power weapons on 2+ save vets is pretty rough.

I'm considering proxying a full squad with the Master (to access them) and a Libby (for the squad invulnerable and hopscotch) next time I'm playing a massive game; costly as heck, but they're the Nobz of the SM list or CC Sternguard, take your pick.

So, here is my idea for making almost BA and almost deathwing armies.

1 If the captain has a jump pack, then you may take assault squads as troop choices, however, they may not exchange their jump packs for transports of any kind.

2 If the kapitan has terminator armor, then you may take 10 man terminator squads as a troop choice, they have all of the same options as normal terminator squads.

@Shrike: And at that point, the BA and DA Codices disappear into nothingness. Nice.

Well, as far as BA, there are still lots of units that only they can take, also there are people who just play them because they're fun. Same with DA, but, with all the protest over their relative lack of effectiveness, there should be something that allows people to switch their lovingly crafted armies over to rules that still allow them to kill everything.

@Shrike: Why would that be necessary? If you play DA/BA, then play DA/BA. Dance with the one who brung ya!

If they want "to kill everything", then, I say, let them repaint and reconvert every time a new Codex comes out.

I don't know, there are lots of people complaining that with every new codex, the DA's get worse and worse. Though my idea doesn't help the ravenwing much, the deathwing could now be used in conjunction with the rules.

I'm not saying that people who still have fun playing DA/BA should switch, I just think that those who want to play DA, but have a codex that is actually updated, should have that option.

And when I said "kill every thing" i just meant an army that is reasonably effective. This is not to say that I think that the DA/BA codexes are not effective, I have no idea as I don't have either of them, but, as I said, there are complaints.

But now I'm rambling, repeating myself, and, as if that weren't bad enough, I'm rambling!

Hahaha...

I can't speak for DA, but from what I see, BA are still reasonably effective.

Personally, I think GW made a big mistake in allowing SM to take Bikers as Troops. WS players should have been forced to play as DA DW just like RG play as BA, to keep things simple for the opponents.

I think that being limited to the fluff, and special quirks of said codexes would be less entertaining. The White Scars have fewer differences with the raven wing army. But the Blood angels are vastly different than the Raven Guard.

I really like the differences that are given to the above armies (I am so tired of writing DA, BA), and they should be preserved imho.

This codex just makes me cry with how good it is. I don't see any reason to complain unless you REALLY liked traits.

But you can get a few of them back, in a way, with characters.

See, someone mentioned "army buffs" and mentioned "like chaos" in the same post, and that person obviously needs to get a clue. The ONLY chaos character that gives ANY kind of buff to the army is frickin' FABIUS BILE and you have to PAY for them, and they can hurt you. Abbadon? Nope. In fact any of the characters that are fearless LOSE it if they join anything but a cult squad or possessed. Ever seen Abbadon and his "terminator bodyguard" run away because they failed a morale check and were below half strength? Funny stuff.

Let's keep going on characters. A Sorceror is 100 points for ZERO psychic powers - go buy one. Want a second one? Get a Familiar, and you still can't cast two unless you're Tzeentch, which cuts you off from certain powers. Librarian? 100 points, two FREE powers that are better than anything chaos has except Lash and Bolt [arguable there] and for 50 points [the cost of a sorceror with two at minimum really] you can cast two per turn! Congrats though, the sorceror has better combat stats *clap clap*

You can get a chaplain. But let's see.... Chaplain... combi-flamer... 115 points. Gee, why don't I just pay 10 more for a TOUGHNESS SIX chaplain with a master-crafted version of the same weapon AND Feel no Pain? Yeah, Chaplain Cassius. Toughness 6. Not 5(6), or 4(6), 6. Carnifex 6. Avatar 6. Greater Daemon 6. Cuz he's got bionics. yeah.....

Then there's Pedro..... yeah he's Pedro, he's really not that great except for scoring sternguard. Meh.

Vulkan? what the hell? With 3 attacks with a re-roll and S6, he's as killy as a daemon prince, easily, especially when you consider the digital weapons and his heavy flamer. And with that 3+ invulnerable, he's comparatively tough too. And let's not go into what he does to the army. It's SICK.

Calgar is comparable to Abbadon - unless you consider how he buffs the whole army immensely and he could just walk backwards and gun Abbadon down with his Ap2 re-roll wounds bolter. Titanic Might eh? What does he do, THROW the bolter rounds?

All I really see that's bad in this book is the reduction in stats for scouts [which is fluffy, really. It was kind of dumb that scouts were better in melee against certain units like banshees and carnifexes than regular marines, since their save didn't matter and they could have bp/ccw] and how you have to have 10 guys before you get anything. CHaos's 1 for 5-9, 2 for 10+ was kind of a kick in the groin but needing 10 before you can even get a flamer sucks. Combat squads allow you to get the most OUT of that situation, but it still sucks.

And nobody's apparently noticed that landraiders all got BETTER, able to hold 12 models for two varieties and 16 for the other, and that the machine spirit also hits at BS now and isn't "one weapon addition to others" but just one weapon period, meaning you can move 12" and fire. Like that multi-melta upgrade. The twin-linked one, because you took Vulkan. Yeah.....

Before you start to complain, open a chaos codex. Then, promptly shut up please.

Spellbound wrote:This codex just makes me cry with how good it is. I don't see any reason to complain unless you REALLY liked traits.

yes actually, I really liked traits, so did the models that were built to accommodate such traits

But you can get a few of them back, in a way, with characters.

See, someone mentioned "army buffs" and mentioned "like chaos" in the same post, and that person obviously needs to get a clue. The ONLY chaos character that gives ANY kind of buff to the army is frickin' FABIUS BILE and you have to PAY for them, and they can hurt you. Abbadon? Nope. In fact any of the characters that are fearless LOSE it if they join anything but a cult squad or possessed. Ever seen Abbadon and his "terminator bodyguard" run away because they failed a morale check and were below half strength? Funny stuff.

Let's keep going on characters. A Sorceror is 100 points for ZERO psychic powers - go buy one. Want a second one? Get a Familiar, and you still can't cast two unless you're Tzeentch, which cuts you off from certain powers. Librarian? 100 points, two FREE powers that are better than anything chaos has except Lash and Bolt [arguable there] and for 50 points [the cost of a sorceror with two at minimum really] you can cast two per turn! Congrats though, the sorceror has better combat stats *clap clap*

Yes yes... we've already discussed the overpowerd Libby congrats for beleaguering the point with your oh so helpful comments

You can get a chaplain. But let's see.... Chaplain... combi-flamer... 115 points. Gee, why don't I just pay 10 more for a TOUGHNESS SIX chaplain with a master-crafted version of the same weapon AND Feel no Pain? Yeah, Chaplain Cassius. Toughness 6. Not 5(6), or 4(6), 6. Carnifex 6. Avatar 6. Greater Daemon 6. Cuz he's got bionics. yeah.....

Then there's Pedro..... yeah he's Pedro, he's really not that great except for scoring sternguard. Meh.

Vulkan? what the hell? With 3 attacks with a re-roll and S6, he's as killy as a daemon prince, easily, especially when you consider the digital weapons and his heavy flamer. And with that 3+ invulnerable, he's comparatively tough too. And let's not go into what he does to the army. It's SICK.

Calgar is comparable to Abbadon - unless you consider how he buffs the whole army immensely and he could just walk backwards and gun Abbadon down with his Ap2 re-roll wounds bolter. Titanic Might eh? What does he do, THROW the bolter rounds?

Again, you express an innate ability to needlessly argue about things that have already been agreed upon. Your skills are amazing.

All I really see that's bad in this book is the reduction in stats for scouts [which is fluffy, really. It was kind of dumb that scouts were better in melee against certain units like banshees and carnifexes than regular marines, since their save didn't matter and they could have bp/ccw] and how you have to have 10 guys before you get anything. CHaos's 1 for 5-9, 2 for 10+ was kind of a kick in the groin but needing 10 before you can even get a flamer sucks. Combat squads allow you to get the most OUT of that situation, but it still sucks.

And nobody's apparently noticed that landraiders all got BETTER, able to hold 12 models for two varieties and 16 for the other, and that the machine spirit also hits at BS now and isn't "one weapon addition to others" but just one weapon period, meaning you can move 12" and fire. Like that multi-melta upgrade. The twin-linked one, because you took Vulkan. Yeah.....

The increase in cargo capacity is to allow independent characters to... you know... actually RIDE in the land raider? The only thing this affects are terminators giving you an extra guy that can be lugged around. But the benefit is, for the most part, small. Allowing the leaders of squads to ride WITH their squads is a no brainer, not, as you say, a huge advantage. The Machine spirit is good, too good, but it is balanced by the fact that the vehicles who used it most (the vindicator) can no longer take it.

I don't care if you have nothing new to contribute, that would be fine. But your hopes that your annoying, insulting chatter will make you significant are misplaced.

Before you start to complain, open a chaos codex. Then, promptly shut up please.

No... and, your welcome.

Nah, I contributed. Just a long-winded "it doesn't need to be, so stop whining" rather than what most people post. Sucks being the one voice that speaks out against the rest. I used to use the traits a lot too. At least what replaced them is still full of variety and validity.

And I'm shocked you think the ability of a character to ride with their squad is a small advantage. It's almost as if you disagree the marine codex has characters that buff units. Khan, Chaplain, Librarian, all that. That's a SMALL advantage? Before you had to choose - if you wanted a character to go with them, bring a Crusader.

But now it is, as you said, a no-brainer.

Your not the only one saying that the SM codex is too good in this, or other posts. That was part of the "fixing" of the SM dex. The majority of the commentators here are those who like fluff, and effectiveness in amounts that are sane. A few people, if only myself and my friends will be using the ideas posted here in househeld games, in order to restore normalcy to the game. Several things mentioned in the discussion were things that needed to be fixed because they were too good.

Also, I didn't say, or rather did not mean to say that I think that allowing characters to ride with their squads was a small advantage. The small advantage I was talking about was the extra terminator that can fit in the basic raider. The extra capacity for the transport of heroes is a no brainer, because it makes so much sense. I agree that this should be communicated to the other codexes, but that is something that needs fixing within other dexes rather than the marine one.

If I seemed to harsh. It was because I really don't like it when people tell me to shut up. So... now you know.