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JD21290 wrote:ork dex - 2 weeks old, the cover is comming apart, and un-biding.

daemons dex - 3 weeks old, fine, just a small beer stain on page 12

You know... I would have thought the Ork dex would get the beer stain, and the Demons would come unbound.

Aduro wrote:

JD21290 wrote:ork dex - 2 weeks old, the cover is comming apart, and un-biding.

daemons dex - 3 weeks old, fine, just a small beer stain on page 12

You know... I would have thought the Ork dex would get the beer stain, and the Demons would come unbound.

Orks don't drink that pony piss you Americans call beer! They only drink Vodka and scotch! Manly drinks of manlyness!

I was going to post that of course there are standard fo glue but I just searched the BSI site and there aren't any.

So yeah, glue is glue is glue.

Kilkrazy wrote:I was going to post that of course there are standards for glue but I just searched the BSI site and there aren't any.

So yeah, glue is glue is glue.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Well I'm glad every glue pellet on the planet is supplied by the same company to the same constancy. Thats reassuring. For a minute there I forgot about the global glue pellet factory of Edinburgh.

Its a nationalized government run facility, so quality isn't job #1.

Kilkrazy wrote:I was going to post that of course there are standard fo glue but I just searched the BSI site and there aren't any.

So yeah, glue is glue is glue.

Alright, so england doesn't have a set standard for adhesive book binding glues. You know what that means? Nothing. If there was a set standard then I would be wrong because glue would be glue would be glue and it would all be the same. When there is no standard then there is variation. It's absurd to think that the chemical composition of every little glue pellet on the planet is identical, especially considering the myriad number of companies producing them.

he's done this for 28 years, how long have you been printing books?

About as long as he has run a factory in china.

wow i really didnt think this topic would of started to get heated but apparently some of you guys are sensitive about your binding glues. i say we go back to killing elephants and horses for glue. man that glue rocked. update, the SM codex is now loosing pages right in the middle of the army list section AND my ork codex is splitting in the EXACT same spot. so im hoping next game we play some AWESOME new SM rules fall out and i can swap them into my ork codex.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I was going to post that of course there are standard fo glue but I just searched the BSI site and there aren't any.

So yeah, glue is glue is glue.

Alright, so england doesn't have a set standard for adhesive book binding glues. You know what that means? Nothing. If there was a set standard then I would be wrong because glue would be glue would be glue and it would all be the same. When there is no standard then there is variation. It's absurd to think that the chemical composition of every little glue pellet on the planet is identical, especially considering the myriad number of companies producing them.

he's done this for 28 years, how long have you been printing books?

About as long as he has run a factory in china.

Edinburgh is in Scotland... i know it's hard but please try not to live up to your American stereotype quite so convincingly.

for me it's just the ork codex, not my WD's or eldar codex. i think it must have been a big batch that failed to seal properly or something.

Nuclear Mekanik wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I was going to post that of course there are standard fo glue but I just searched the BSI site and there aren't any.

So yeah, glue is glue is glue.

Alright, so england doesn't have a set standard for adhesive book binding glues. You know what that means? Nothing. If there was a set standard then I would be wrong because glue would be glue would be glue and it would all be the same. When there is no standard then there is variation. It's absurd to think that the chemical composition of every little glue pellet on the planet is identical, especially considering the myriad number of companies producing them.

he's done this for 28 years, how long have you been printing books?

About as long as he has run a factory in china.

Edinburgh is in Scotland... i know it's hard but please try not to live up to your American stereotype quite so convincingly.

Sorry, Grotsniks flag indicator of location was for england. I just figured it was a location nearby him, the name didn't sound all that familiar (though being the capitol i suppose it should have). I'll have to update my knowledge of the location of every single town and city that exists next time i play spore. Clearly I'm falling behind all of you human atlas' who can make no mistakes overseas.

The Codices are indeed cheaply-bound (mine was printed in China, FYI). It's doesn't matter what kind of glue you use, really, it's the actual binding method which sucks. If the pages where sewn into signatures before the cover was glued on, the book would be far more durable. I'm pretty sure that Palladium Books does this, and their books are pretty inexpensive by gaming industry standards. Of course, they operate on a much smaller scale than GW.

Oh, and by the way, the publisher and the printer are not the same thing. GW is the publisher. The company in China (or Poland) is the printer.

And no, I haven't been a publisher (or a printer, for that matter). I don't have any credentials. I have been a bookseller for almost my entire career, however, for what that's worth.

Grotsnik wrote:The quality of the newer codexs is crap because GW, like every other company, in order to save a few pennies had them printed in china. Where substandard is the policy.

You should climb off your soap box, the reason stuff gets printed in china is because they do things of a high quality. A lot of art books are printed in China and for a price that would make them unaffordable here. You get what you pay for, pay for cheap binding and that's what you get. But don't sneer at them thinking everything they do is in a shoddy manner because much of their industry in quality and productivity puts ours to shame.

Pariah Press wrote: The Codices are indeed cheaply-bound (mine was printed in China, FYI). It's doesn't matter what kind of glue you use, really, it's the actual binding method which sucks. If the pages where sewn into signatures before the cover was glued on, the book would be far more durable. I'm pretty sure that Palladium Books does this, and their books are pretty inexpensive by gaming industry standards. Of course, they operate on a much smaller scale than GW.

Oh, and by the way, the publisher and the printer are not the same thing. GW is the publisher. The company in China (or Poland) is the printer.

And no, I haven't been a publisher (or a printer, for that matter). I don't have any credentials. I have been a bookseller for almost my entire career, however, for what that's worth.

QFT. The quality of the binding depends almost entirely on what GW are willing to pay. The pages aren't glued together, they are stitched and bound and a cover is glued on. My wife worked in a printers for a while and got to be a good judge of cost and quality in printed products. GW books are going to take a bashing so they should be made to last really. For the person who said that they don't make them in hardback because it's much more expensive, it's apparently not true. It is more expensive, but not a great deal, in a large print run you're talking about a difference of pennies not pounds. What does cost money is having special pages like foldout maps and the like, because these still have to be fed in by hand which takes considerable time and money, and is probably the reason White Dwarf stopped doing their cardboard sections.

The bulk of the overhead on printing codices is probably determined by the size of their print run, but she guesses that if a run of codices was less than 10,000, they would cost about 75p each, for wha it's worth.

In printing, there are several forms of binding. Which options are available largely depends on the stock used, and the overall thickness of the finished product.

GW books are indeed bound the most cost effective way for their size. I don't know the term intimately (I worked there for 6 months...) but I think the glued spine is referred to as 'perfect bound'. The use of staple is Wire Bound (usually 2, 3 or 4 depending on size, with 2 being the most common) and then we have stitch bound.

Hardback books tend to be stitch bound. This is where there is a weave of material over the binding to hold the pages secure.

And the glue for perfect binding, as I said, really is much of a muchness. It is the amount used, and the accuracy of the machine operator that makes the biggest difference. Like most, the ones I know take a real pride in their work, and know their machines inside out (my brother has managed to up the trimstitch machine for 40 copies a second to 80 odd, just by tinkering and knowing his machine).

Storage issues can also affect the perfect bound volume, as rapid changes in temprature, especially if exposed to this before the glue has properly set, can play havoc with it. Less of an issue when printed in Britain, as the books have less distance to travel, and we don't have radical chances in temprature from one end to the other. But printing in Poland (colder than Britain, because we have the Gulf Stream keeping us warmer than we should) and shipping to Britain introduces this, even more so if coming from China (quite a humid part of the world by comparisson).

But hey, what do I know? Shuma is clearly right because he said it's all GW's fault. I mean, I only have a familial history in the print industry, so I can't know anything, can I?

N.B. The Flag on my profile is the Union Flag (not, according to common belief the Union Jack. It's only the Union Jack when flown from a seagoing vessel). This flag, as the name suggests, is the flag of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The *english* flag is the George Cross, which is Red Cross on a White Background. The *scottish* flag is the Saltire Cross, which is white on a blue background. Interestingly, the George Cross used to be a Black Cross, until the Crusades when the French (remember, back then the Pope lived in France, not The Vatican, thus the French held quitea lot of sway) had it changed to Red. Not 100% sure why, but thats the truth of it.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Nuclear Mekanik wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I was going to post that of course there are standard fo glue but I just searched the BSI site and there aren't any.

So yeah, glue is glue is glue.

Alright, so england doesn't have a set standard for adhesive book binding glues. You know what that means? Nothing. If there was a set standard then I would be wrong because glue would be glue would be glue and it would all be the same. When there is no standard then there is variation. It's absurd to think that the chemical composition of every little glue pellet on the planet is identical, especially considering the myriad number of companies producing them.

he's done this for 28 years, how long have you been printing books?

About as long as he has run a factory in china.

Edinburgh is in Scotland... i know it's hard but please try not to live up to your American stereotype quite so convincingly.

Sorry, Grotsniks flag indicator of location was for england. I just figured it was a location nearby him, the name didn't sound all that familiar (though being the capitol i suppose it should have). I'll have to update my knowledge of the location of every single town and city that exists next time i play spore. Clearly I'm falling behind all of you human atlas' who can make no mistakes overseas.

Humm.

Mad Doc Grotsnik's flag is a Union Flag. The Scottish flag is dark blue with a white saltire.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Grotsnik wrote:The quality of the newer codexs is crap because GW, like every other company, in order to save a few pennies had them printed in china. Where substandard is the policy.

You should climb off your soap box, the reason stuff gets printed in china is because they do things of a high quality. A lot of art books are printed in China and for a price that would make them unaffordable here. You get what you pay for, pay for cheap binding and that's what you get. But don't sneer at them thinking everything they do is in a shoddy manner because much of their industry in quality and productivity puts ours to shame.

Some Chinese stuff is fine and some is rubbish.

Viz the milk scandal, the lead painted toys scandal, and the insecticide in packaged food scandal.

Other countries also have quality control issues.

But hey, what do I know? Shuma is clearly right because he said it's all GW's fault. I mean, I only have a familial history in the print industry, so I can't know anything, can I?

Actually I implied that it was games workshops fault because they payed for lower quality work to save on printing costs. This includes lower cost of materials (cheaper probably nationally available glues) as well as cheaper labor. Clearly you know your stuff, but glues are not always equal and logically can't be.

Mad Doc Grotsnik's flag is a Union Flag. The Scottish flag is dark blue with a white saltire.

Oh, yeah. I was identifying the union flag as the english one (probably because the U.K. is represented as a single entity more often here than england and Scotland are represented separately.) Logic train, union flag ~ england ~ Edinburgh being in england. Never post when you've had 4 hours of sleep and your trying to complete a website, research paper, and write a program. Memory gets strange.

I believe gw started printing some of its codexes in romania nowadays ( mind you, this is just a rumour I've picked up ). Lets just say the tech thre isnt what it should be ( ever been to romania? Its like walking into the dark ages again when you leave the big cities, beautiful country though ).

The printer is usually credited in the front of the book. If not specifically, EU regulations require that the country of origin is identified.

So you might see something like

Typeset in Garamond 10pt by Southend Reprographics
Printed at St Ives, Andover.

It wouldn't suprise me if they were printing in Spain, apparently a lot of stuff is done there now. China is growing too IIRC.

Yeah, the china part. It's all printed in China, which is great for me because I don't buy stuff made in China so this gave me a perfect excuse to save myself about $1k and get them via the Pirate bay.

the reason stuff gets printed in china is because they do things of a high quality

Yep.
Nothing but the BEST lead in the paint on MY KID's toys!

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

the reason stuff gets printed in china is because they do things of a high quality

Yep.
Nothing but the BEST lead in the paint on MY KID's toys!

Eric

Yes, I thought a few smart arses might bring that up. Well firstly I was talking about printing. And secondly China produces a vast amount of products covering just about everything, look around your house and in shops, seemingly everything is made in China. Yes there are a few horror stories, but that doesn't detract from the main point.

HisDivineShadow wrote:
I'm sorry, but GW doesn't even proofread the 'dexes. I find it difficult to imagine they visited/researched the publisher. They probably just emailed in the files.

GW is the publishers...

But, anyway: Bad glue happens. I don't believe there's a lot of known differences in glues, but there's no reason there couldn't be.

My Ork codex cover is having some very minor issues, nothing that would warrant my complaining (and I'm a perfectionist - it's a curse). My SM codex is fine.

I will say this... I'm very cautious and very careful with all of my books. If I have trouble with any one of them, and didn't get adequate use out of it before it fell apart. I will walk straight into my GW store and make them give me a new one.

Just to give an example. After nearly four years of use my 2E Ultramarines codex looked alomost new. So if I end up having a problem, than there's a serious issue.

ShumaGorath wrote: I'll have to update my knowledge of the location of every single town and city that exists next time i play spore. Clearly I'm falling behind all of you human atlas' who can make no mistakes overseas.

No, it's clear you got called out on a error and are doing your damnedest to backpedal out of it..

Grotsnik wrote:

The quality of the newer codexs is crap because GW, like every other company, in order to save a few pennies had them printed in china. Where substandard is the policy.

I haven't noticed that any of the books have been printed in China.. Which GW book(s) do you have that have been printed in China?

two_heads_talking wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote: I'll have to update my knowledge of the location of every single town and city that exists next time i play spore. Clearly I'm falling behind all of you human atlas' who can make no mistakes overseas.

No, it's clear you got called out on a error and are doing your damnedest to backpedal out of it..

Grotsnik wrote:

The quality of the newer codexs is crap because GW, like every other company, in order to save a few pennies had them printed in china. Where substandard is the policy.

I haven't noticed that any of the books have been printed in China.. Which GW book(s) do you have that have been printed in China?

Quick list of some books that say they were "Printed in China" (there are others I am sure):
5th Edition Rulebook
4th Ed Space Marines
4th Ed Tyranids
4th Ed Dark Angels
Black Templars
Tau Empire
4th Ed Blood Angels

Okay, the last one was to see if anyone actually read the list. two_heads_talking, you owe me a replacemnt 100th post for having to post this!

Never happenend to me. I accidently tore a golden daemon page in a WD about eight years ago though.

I've had trouble with some of the older hardcovers(Waaargh The Orks and Codex Titanicus). The pages in those were DEFINATELY not sewn. I ended up using the hot glue gun to put the pages back in. Not idea, but it worked pretty well.

Interestingly, the George Cross used to be a Black Cross, until the Crusades when the French (remember, back then the Pope lived in France, not The Vatican, thus the French held quitea lot of sway) had it changed to Red. Not 100% sure why, but thats the truth of it.

That is because of the Knights Hospitallers wanting to use that Standard as their own. (They had very good ties to France, having a large number of French nobility in their ranks.)

No, it's clear you got called out on a error and are doing your damnedest to backpedal out of it..

I didn't really deny that.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:

the reason stuff gets printed in china is because they do things of a high quality

Yep.
Nothing but the BEST lead in the paint on MY KID's toys!

Eric

Yes, I thought a few smart arses might bring that up. Well firstly I was talking about printing. And secondly China produces a vast amount of products covering just about everything, look around your house and in shops, seemingly everything is made in China. Yes there are a few horror stories, but that doesn't detract from the main point.

Stuff made in China is almost always crap. Especially printed material. Take for instance GW codices...

Anyway, what main point? Do you seriously believe that just because a lot of stuff is imported makes it largely good? I'm looking around my house right now, and I see hardly anything made in China, because when you buy stuff that's not asian-made, it generally lasts a lot longer. If nearly everything you own is China-made, and you think it's all good quality, maybe you should try getting something made in the U.S. You'll probably be surprised by the difference.

Why is China-made stuff crap? Because it's made by people who don't care, partly just because it's not like they're ever going to hear about it if it's badly done, and partly because they're usually over-worked to the point that they just don't care any more, if they ever did in the first place. And those uncaring people are employees of people who don't care, because if their company does a crappy job, they don't have to worry about it because they're in another bleeding country, and even if the people who buy their stuff do care about the quality, they can sell it to them so cheaply that most businesses will just shut-up and take it anyway.