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Obviously a mistype on my part. It's 24" apart, and thank you for the education. I wish you sounded less the way you do (someone without any 5th edition playtime) but oh well.

I've enjoyed watching you go on about how mech is awesome against this.

Now despite the fact the GW GT organizers have this slowed notion all Dark Eldar/Sisters players MUST play each other...

The reality is, I could give a in comparing the two lists against each other--why would I design a list to fight itself? That's stupid.

Talk 180 Orks and 8 MC / 7 LR lists. Right, the mech list is a loser against those lists. Same with Eldar. So that's what, all of the top armies? Gee, sign me up for losses against all of those lists.

Please do yourself a favor, and stop mentioning the slowed ard boyz missions rules regarding transports not giving up KP's.

I understand that. I really do. If you aren't getting out of them, you aren't hurting me much are ya? That's how mech lists work, you've gotta get out at some point.

Go ahead and get out and rapid fire / flame me. So you kill 10 Sisters, if that. I charge two of your squads and annihilate both.

What's with this 'come to me' crap? Who cares if you have exorcists? They're and have been for a long time.

Why I'd care if you forced me to assault Rhinos instead of rapid firing in an assault oriented army is beyond your comprehension apparently, but I'll explain it one last time.

Assault Sisters > your army.

You think you can handle even one charge from these? Trust me, you can't. Here's the basic math:

6 S6 power weapon attacks, hit on 4+ against most troops with re-rolls against everything (including vehicles without a WS).

32 Attacks, hit as above. So 16 hit then 8 more hit. Toss in the faith and suddenly that's 4 dead from AP2 hits.

8.5 dead, and we haven't even gotten around to saves yet. Gee, what if I make all the girls S5? Right, so what doesn't AP2, will wound you on a 2+.

Really dude, do you play 5th? Get a grip on your theoryhammer, it's obvious you've never played against a foot horde of Sisters and don't know thing one about them.

Think Orks. That have BS4 and power armor. Then think again about how awesome your mech army really is. It isn't, in case you still think it's awesome.

The title says ard boyz. I already stated the fact that I wouldn't take that mech list to a gt.

I don't know what eldar you are playing against but 2 fire prisms 3 d-cannon's and banshee's/harlies own your foot horde, and he only needed 3 squads to do it.

I never said I wasnt getting out of a rhino. My point has always been that the rhino guarantees me first shot at you. Let me counter with my own math for you.

1 heavy flamer, and 1 flamer, with 16 bolter shots and if I get 6 girls under each template equals 6-7 dead sisters.

I charge you with a canoness and 5 celestians, who also shot your melta guns, now you are down to 7-8 dead sisters. The celestians kill 1 your normal attacks back do nothing, maybe getting you one casualty. My eviscerator canonss takes down 2 unless you managed to roll over a 9 or a 10. My act is much easier to do with only 6. We are now locked in hth and I charge you with my other 10 sisters the next round and wipe you out.

That's without firing the immolator or picking one squad to whittle down with exorcists.

The strength of your list is in getting a charge, no charge for you = epic fail in hth.

I've played against exactly one foot horde of sisters. So you are right there, and yes they got steam rolled by my mech list.

I never said the mech army was awesome. I even stated in my other thread that I liked a foot list and I had fun with it but that I had issues beating a mech list with a sisters foot army. That is what I'm getting at here. Replace the sisters with any army x in rhino's and tell me how you reliably beat it. You aren't getting charges unless a unit is already stuck in and without the charge your sisters are screwed.

You really don't have any concept of 5th edition sacrifice flies, so it seems pointless.

You're talking like a 4th edition player reveling in the last gasp of a crappy army in one set of scenarios.

Not like. You are one.

I love your new math, how you get charges off on foot squads from closed transports. It's a neat trick. Illegal, but neat as hell to watch you say it like it's an actual valid tactic and I should learn up.

Go ahead and "whittle" me down with Exorcists. You will NEVER get the base cost of those 3 Exorcists back. NEVER. Who doesn't know this already??

The strength of my list is the same as Black templars and Orks. Setting mech lists up for sucker bets and counter-charging. Gee, Orks and Black Templars are doing well in the GT's and Sisters using the same tired pattern of 4 Rhinos 3 Exorcists sure ain't.

Woo, shocker.

If you are close enough to melta my rhino then I'm close enough to get out of it before it moves and assault you. Or hey if you destroy the rhino and I put my models 7 inches away from you so you can't assault. Again I get the assault.

Against your list I agree I'd be much better off spending points on something else besides exorcists. But since mine is meant to be well rounded I'll take the hit for the benefit of being able to punch other people's transports at range and to be able to shoot down mc's.

No I'm a player that specifically built his army to participate in one set of scenarios. A lower point gt army of mine would be different. There's a big difference, at least to me, between gt and ard boyz.

And why do you keep referring back to gt's, I've already said several times that I don't like that particular mech list for gt's. Actually any troop transport army I don't really like for gts.

I'm starting to think we are discussing two very different things.

Because I'm saying the foot horde works fine at 1750 where the mech list doesn't--and the mech list can't grow to 2500 where the foot list can.

You seem to be under the impression that rhinos + exorcists = win. Well, I think it's a win for the other guy given how bad they are. I enjoy seeing exorcists and rhinos on the other side of the table. Knock out the exorcists, kill the Rhinos, kill the Sisters. It's pretty reliable and not that difficult to do. Since it's still 3 Exorcists (no troops inside) and now 6 Rhinos, well at 2500 points that's pretty easy to shoot to pieces.

See my point re: foot vs mech?

Regarding the ard boyz:

I don't care about the ard boyz--I go to the local one to play ridiculous lists against my buddies.

So, yay, I won my local ard boyz (all I do care about) again.

Semi-finals? Finals? Has little meaning to me.

Not until the ard boyz are run properly, for players not for . Not a shot at you, just a shot at the twits running it. They have a lot to learn.

Actually I think rhino's + immolators = win. But only in the screwed up ard boyz format. The exorcists were there because at 2500 pts I had to have something to knock wounds off of monstrous creatures.

And that's the crux of the conversation. Against the current well placing gt armies, ie orks, templar's etc, basically anything non mounted I like the foot list.

But against someone whose mechanized I don't see how the foot sisters list is winning.

Let me give some army types I'm talking about

Chaos Land Raider rush

Mech tau.

stjohns immy list.

Mech dar.

So the basic question is when you set that foot list down and your opponent can do one of two things. They can either out shoot you at range or because of their mechanized nature guarantee they can get the assault off on the foot list.

Should we restart the thread by posting at 1750 gt level to clear up any confusion?

I have to say St John is right... the list will have a hard time vs a lot of other lists nowadays.

BUT! Stelek is also right that this list is good. Spamming power armor is also very good.

I'm not so sure I like the Multimelta's in a foot pounder list however....

and Mech sisters OWN monstrous creatures Nids.

This list epic fails at any tournament level.

yermom wrote:This list epic fails at any tournament level.

Interesting.

I'm the sole person who managed a top 25 battle points game (and in a tournament with alot of players, not 60 like the recent Chicago GT) with foot Sisters at a GW GT.

Ever.

Epic fail indeed.

:S

Warmaster wrote:Actually I think rhino's + immolators = win. But only in the screwed up ard boyz format. The exorcists were there because at 2500 pts I had to have something to knock wounds off of monstrous creatures.

And that's the crux of the conversation. Against the current well placing gt armies, ie orks, templar's etc, basically anything non mounted I like the foot list.

But against someone whose mechanized I don't see how the foot sisters list is winning.

Let me give some army types I'm talking about

Chaos Land Raider rush

Mech tau.

stjohns immy list.

Mech dar.

So the basic question is when you set that foot list down and your opponent can do one of two things. They can either out shoot you at range or because of their mechanized nature guarantee they can get the assault off on the foot list.

Should we restart the thread by posting at 1750 gt level to clear up any confusion?

Show me the mech lists that can shoot Sisters to death.

100 of them.

In the new tournament format?

I don't think so.

In objective missions, I hope you intend to tank shock me off objectives while holding your own.

Note I ran this list back when Sisters were BS3.

BS3.

Now? lol man bring on the mech.

is anyone going to try and tank shock you off objectives?

Also, forgive my lack of knowledge about the units of the sisters, but do you have anything that can beat the range that mech armies usually have?

yea... he does. Pure numbers marching to you in power armor...

I think this list is a lot better then people are giving it credit for....

As offensive as I may sound I don't mean to be, and Stelek you've made some rather insanly cheesy lists, but this isn't one of them.

Allow me to elaborate on why this list fails at any tournament setting...

1. getting a top score of 25 in a GT doesn't mean that much to me due to the many variables in that system. Such as you may have played a nube. You may have played against a list that cannot handle this list at all. (Yes i'll admitt there are many lists that can't beat it). You may have rolled like a god he may have rolled poorly... The list goes on.

2. Put this up against YOU'RE own Daemon Hunters Ard Boyz list and let me know who wins. And you better believe that if this list somehow wins i'm ressurecting a thread on how to beat you're "unbeatable" daemon hunter list and posting this one up.

3. This one is more to the point of not making Stelek contradict himself. I'll grant you that this list may absolutly anhilate some armies it would get totally owned by others.

Dark Eldar will own this list because you're forced to move into their most predictible trap.

Mech Sisters like mine or St. Johns (who also agrees with me about this list)

Drop Troop IG who overload you with targets that are all of equal threat value your 10 units will be overkill on his but you're still fighting 35 more and only 10 kill points to be earned in his list. (assuming ard boyz)

Because of your priests??? a 200+ ork horde would turn these girls into toothpicks and use them to clean out their teeth.

9 obliterater 2 lash 50 plauge/noise marine list would eat this list all day long.

This list continues but i'm tired of brainstorming/ typing.

And as a heads up all these armies minus the drop troop guard are all very common.

I'm wondering why you aren't including zealots in the list

Stelek's LVGT list could have been beaten pretty well in the hands of a less capable player, which by his results he obviously isn't. Nothing's going to stand up to a couple rounds worth of that much bolter fire, and few tanks have enough pie to start to eat away at the massed ranks of PowerBoob Armour.

I've fought Sister spam, and it ain't pretty. Would much rather play vs. mech sisters - I don't care what you're spamming when your points are going to light tanks.

@ Arctik:

PowerBoob Armour.

Excellent! That made me laugh.

@ NotMathew:

No Zealots because they are illegal.

@ Frogs:

I'll post up my original 1850 CA2k list from 3rd edition, see what I can scrape together in 1750 for 5th. Separately of course.

@ Yermom:

Dark Eldar can crunch most armies. Now show me the players with the 30 special weapon guys and 12 raiders to run the (in my honest opinion) "best" list. I don't know of many myself...

stjohn has a nasty immo list. I still dunno what I have that can take them except my Tau. Possibly my Black Templars. Besides that? Meh, Mech Eldar but that's not much of a fair fight.

Drop Troop IG are fun for Sisters to kill. Lock as many units as you possibly can into combat, and kill them. Or are they not deep striking close enough to shoot me for some reason?

180 Orks against this and I get wiped out? Interesting point of view. I wonder why you'd say that, given the number of bolter shots the army has.

Regarding point 2: Not sure how I'd stop that many Sisters with my DH list. Flamers are for hordes, and the LR are for marine killing. Foot Sisters are both, and neither. So they'd be hurt, then they'd be running 6 S8 +2D6 attacks into each Raider (with re-rolls) and that isn't good. Especially with 2 meltaguns each. It's not like I can lock them up in close combat ya know.

Lash hurts Sisters? I suppose it could. Not sure about the PM. They'd be hard to kill, but they'd die to the eviscerator hits just the same. I guess hitting them with the rapid fire bolters with AP2 on 6's means nothing (other than dead).

Regarding point 3: Of course. Whoever said it wouldn't? The last time you faced a foot horde of Sisters was...?

Regarding point 1: Sure. I played Khorne (unnerfed Khorne from way back in the day) demon bomb. I played Mech tau. I played speed freaks. I played phalanx necrons. I played blood angels (the unnerfed ones with the free furious charge).

All of those players also scored high in the GT that year, with 80+ points. Their only losses were to me. That was in a large field with alot of 'power' lists running around that did nothing but laugh at my Sister horde.

Each of those lists was not something you'd think I could play against and win, but I did. Orks and Tau were, honestly, by the hair on my chinny chin chin.

So considering how badly Sisters have fared at GT's since they were brought into the game, in what, a 6 year stretch I got the ONLY top 25 battle points? Yeah, I played noobs.

Hey Stelek. Man I want to dislike you, you are aggressive and cocky. BUT...I do have to admit, you points are valid. The proof is in the pudding as they say. 'It's not bragging if you can do it' Anyway, after all the fires die down here, how about posting the 'best' 2500 DE 'ardboyz list? I would be interested to see where you go with that.

Oh, if they keep bringing back the old stuff and labeling it 'new' then get ready, because in 6th edition they will bring back human bombs, penal troopers w/ explosive collars, and ROBOTS! Get to work on making that army now!

Best does mean 'without worrying about money', right?

Stelek wrote:180 Orks against this and I get wiped out? Interesting point of view. I wonder why you'd say that, given the number of bolter shots the army has.

Because orks are lucky gits, and they pass too many cover saves :(

I'm not frickin' kidding, I played two ork players at the 'Ard Boyz semifinals and one of them had the 180 boy list plus some other things [ohnoez, Lootaz!]. If I gave him a chance to save, any at all, he'd easily pass 75% of them.

His shooting was also above average for a SPACE MARINE from his ORKS. I was not happy that I lost as many models as I did.

As for me, though, I won't say I could own this list. But I do think I have a good chance at it. Here's what I see happening:

BLOOD.

I would move forward and eradicate a squad with doomsirens and such. Next turn, I'd lose that squad. Guaranteed. With room to spare to start damaging my other stuff. Other stuff: Comes back and wipes out another of your squads. Your turn: Retaliation is a female dog. I lose lots more guys.

And on we go like this until one of us is out of models, and I hope it's not me.



I will say though that you're taking an awful RISK. I never take 20 man squads of anything that's not fearless, simply because I lose too much. I ran an all foot sisters list in 4th edition featuring 20-man squads of sisters, two of them with preachers. What happened, REPEATEDLY, multiple times PER GAME, was that once I hit 11 casualties the unit would break, and be unrecoverable except by faith points. Seeing 9 models with a character and 2 special weapons [aka a fully functional squad capable of doing many things] running away irritates me to no end, yet when I've tried it with chaos space marines the same thing has happened twice.

Yes I'm sure that quoting "the exception" is folly, especially when "the odds" of failing tests, particularly that many, are very small. My problem is with the very THEORY of it - you lose half of a double-size squad, leaving a fully useful "standard full" sized squad, which then kills itself by running away. Sickening.



My other main problem with this army: Inefficiency. In the event that you shoot a tank with those meltas, you WASTE the bolter shots of 14 other models. It might "work out fine" but still. Ugh.

Stelek wrote:Best does mean 'without worrying about money', right?

Doesn't it always? Spamming light vehicles is often very effective.

9 Landspeeders with Vulkan! 9 Buggies with skorchas! And in the old days when Saim-Hann had Vypers as troops - 18 Vypers!

You've honestly only coutered 2 of my comments, but anyway as far as orks go you wont get a chance to rapid fire on them because of you're slowed priests and their ability to have an army wide 6" WHAGG! with Gazghkull. You're large squads will mean it's harder to get an invul save and with only 1 attack each it will take at least 3 rounds of combat to kill 1 mob ASSUMING NO casulties.

My above chaos list would lash out of cover and into template for and would bombard you with plasma cannons and sonic blasters. Then it would not die

Justlooking at the list its pretty clear orks will have a hard time.
180 orks are geat against alot of armies, but the sheer ammount of fire in this army puts up a nice fight.

9 Retributor Squad @ 189 Pts
Bolter (x5); Heavy Bolter (x4)
1 Veteran Sister Superior @ [30] Pts
Bolter; Book of St. Lucius

9 Retributor Squad @ 189 Pts
Bolter (x5); Heavy Bolter (x4)
1 Veteran Sister Superior @ [30] Pts
Bolter; Book of St. Lucius

9 Retributor Squad @ 189 Pts
Bolter (x5); Heavy Bolter (x4)
1 Veteran Sister Superior @ [30] Pts
Bolter; Book of St. Lucius

these 3 units will cause havoc with orks, they will be gunning down mob after mob.

Edit:

if i had to go up against this army and had to use ork i would take:

HQ:

waboss - klaw, bosspole, eavy armour - 95

waboss - klaw, bosspole, eavy armour - 95

Elite:

5 nobz - klaw, painboy, eavy armour - 175
Battlewagon - 2 big shootas, zzap gun, deff roller - 135

5 nobz - klaw, painboy, eavy armour - 175
Battlewagon - 2 big shootas, zzap gun, deff roller - 135

5 nobz - klaw, painboy, eavy armour, bosspole - 1780
Battlewagon - 2 big shootas, zzap gun, deff roller - 135

Troop

5 nobz - klaw, painboy, eavy armour, bosspole - 1780
Battlewagon - 2 big shootas, zzap gun, deff roller - 135

5 nobz - klaw, painboy, eavy armour, bosspole - 1780
Battlewagon - 2 big shootas, killkannon - 160

10 boyz - 60
trukk, red paint job - 40

10 boyz - 60
trukk, red paint job - 40

10 gretchin - slaver - 40

Heavy:

Battlewagon - 2 big shootas, killkannon - 160

Battlewagon - 2 big shootas, killkannon - 160

Battlewagon - 2 big shootas, killkannon - 160

total of 25 nobz, 2 warboss's, 20 boyz, 10 grots + slaver, 2 trukks and 8 battlewagons.

idea being for th 4 deff roller wagons to be roaming about tank shocking units while the 4 kannon wagons sit back and blast holes in the enemy army.
the 2 units of trukk boyz are simply to make up points and numbers and also give me mobile capturing units if needed.
gretchin are there because they are. 40 points left over so another scoring unit wouldnt go a miss.

(sorry for rather large post)

Do the math. Each retributor squad kills statistically about 7-8 orks each time it fires. Get a cover save and that number gets cut in half.

so how do you plan on keeping 180 or so orks all in cover as they advance?

Every Ork player theoryhammers they can always get a cover save.

Then they put their models in the open because they HAVE TO.

I don't run a small Ork army for nothing, ya know.

180 Boyz? You aren't in cover, somewhere.

Stelek wrote:Every Ork player theoryhammers they can always get a cover save.

Then they put their models in interspersed units to get a self-generated cover save.

I don't run a small Ork army for nothing, ya know.

180 Boyz? You aren't in cover, somewhere.

There ya go Stelek, fixed that for you.

Me likey the list. I think people are missing the boat with what you are trying to do with this list...especially when it comes to using the celestians and the role they play. How well do you think this list would fair against a 30 sternguard list with Vulkan and Lysander and placing them and everything pods. The real disadvantage I see is that without litanies of faith it would be difficult to save the large SOB units from getting plowed with vengence rounds that are twin-linked or twin linked melta/flame weapons depending on what the marine player chooses to substitute combat tactics for.

Capt K

Get in cover and wait.

tzeentchling wrote:

Stelek wrote:Every Ork player theoryhammers they can always get a cover save.

Then they put their models in interspersed units to get a self-generated cover save.

I don't run a small Ork army for nothing, ya know.

180 Boyz? You aren't in cover, somewhere.

There ya go Stelek, fixed that for you.

Idiocy.

No Ork player does this.

The game wouldn't get past the first turn.

Anyway, since they don't in reality (not in theoryhammer nonsense land) use interspersed formations the original statement stands.

Oh and in GT's, it's not allowed.

So let's see...where are you going to pull this nonsense?

GT, check.
Friendly play, check.

So at a RTT where you get a win and a reputation for being a ? Right.

Then you play a flamer army or a Tau player and get smoked anyway.

What a plan.

So, back to no cover saves somewhere and bolters of death in your face plus total lack of mobility in 180 orks = fail.

Stelek wrote:

tzeentchling wrote:

Stelek wrote:Every Ork player theoryhammers they can always get a cover save.

Then they put their models in interspersed units to get a self-generated cover save.

I don't run a small Ork army for nothing, ya know.

180 Boyz? You aren't in cover, somewhere.

There ya go Stelek, fixed that for you.

Idiocy.

No Ork player does this.

The game wouldn't get past the first turn.

Anyway, since they don't in reality (not in theoryhammer nonsense land) use interspersed formations the original statement stands.

Oh and in GT's, it's not allowed.

So let's see...where are you going to pull this nonsense?

GT, check.
Friendly play, check.

So at a RTT where you get a win and a reputation for being a ? Right.

Then you play a flamer army or a Tau player and get smoked anyway.

What a plan.

So, back to no cover saves somewhere and bolters of death in your face plus total lack of mobility in 180 orks = fail.

What? This is incomprehensible. What isn't allowed at a GT? Cover saves? Using 5th ed rules? Moving your army? What?

And if IT (whatever IT is) isn't allowed why do we get a check for it at GT's along with friendly play?

ender502