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Ace_of_Spades wrote:I proud of who I am and what I believe.

So are Klansman. Being proud of cosmic randomness is a strange thing to be proud of.

I see a lot of people who try to claim something they aren't, especially on the internet, so I am a bit jaded I'll admit. Distrust but verify, as it were.

Though you do follow standard mold in the sense that you make religion fit what you want rather then fit yourself into it's ethos. Christianity and Shinto are incompatible for many reasons. Then throw in Shamanism and it all becomes more muddled and unfortunate. You come across as ill informed, as though you only wanted half truths, because the full truth would mean re-evaluating some things. It's just easier to pay each lip service to each then to seriously deal with the incompatibilities. Such as obsessing over the YHWH and really digging that and wanting to follow that, but turning around and sort of off hand being about Jesus. "Yeah the Jewish deity was awesome and I believe it, but I guess, ya know there was some Jesus guy to and I guess I'm a follower, but I really like, believe in the stuff that Jesus came to change even more! But I'm Christian I guess. Ya know, whatever." You are a big bag of contradictions.

You also like to point out how you are "always under attack" which is another way of focusing attention on yourself. You purposely draw attention to yourself to point out that people always question you. It's like going around and claiming to be a hasidic Jew and a Sufi Muslim and wondering why people think you are a bit daft and than getting upset because it is a bit daft. You can believe what you want, I'm not stopping you. On top of it all throw in the "I'm such a special boy, pay attention to me" of how much you've been lauded over by people for your religious knowledge. You want our attention, you need it to be fulfilled.

You are a beautiful and unique snowflake.

Ace_of_Spades wrote:

Dogma - I went to Baptist college as a means to an end...it offered the quickest route to a degree...a 4 year degree in 2 years of full time schooling. If I had to choose which God I think is the "right" one I like the OT one. I'm not a really big "God loves us one and all" kind of guy.

Yes I was raised Baptist until I was old enough to choose for my self. My Mom taught me her religious upbringing when I asked as a young teen. As I've gotten older the more I've learned and researched the more I'm more comfortable spiritually with her/our Shinto beliefs and history. I try to practice what I was taught/learned. Yes...I'm definitely one of those folks who are on the highway as you put it. I have family on my Dad's side who don't talk with me because of it.

I guess I should have been more specific. If you recognize that there were/are a great many people who accost you for your beliefs, and that they are wrong to be that way, then how can you hold faith in a God which acts in exactly that way? What makes your interpretation of the world one which deserves the privilege of a righteously judgmental deity?

Ahtman wrote:

Ace_of_Spades wrote:I proud of who I am and what I believe.

So are Klansman. Being proud of cosmic randomness is a strange thing to be proud of.

I see a lot of people who try to claim something they aren't, especially on the internet, so I am a bit jaded I'll admit. Distrust but verify, as it were.

Though you do follow standard mold in the sense that you make religion fit what you want rather then fit yourself into it's ethos. Christianity and Shinto are incompatible for many reasons. Then throw in Shamanism and it all becomes more muddled and unfortunate. You come across as ill informed, as though you only wanted half truths, because the full truth would mean re-evaluating some things. It's just easier to pay each lip service to each then to seriously deal with the incompatibilities. Such as obsessing over the YHWH and really digging that and wanting to follow that, but turning around and sort of off hand being about Jesus. "Yeah the Jewish deity was awesome and I believe it, but I guess, ya know there was some Jesus guy to and I guess I'm a follower, but I really like, believe in the stuff that Jesus came to change even more! But I'm Christian I guess. Ya know, whatever." You are a big bag of contradictions.

You also like to point out how you are "always under attack" which is another way of focusing attention on yourself. You purposely draw attention to yourself to point out that people always question you. It's like going around and claiming to be a hasidic Jew and a Sufi Muslim and wondering why people think you are a bit daft and than getting upset because it is a bit daft. You can believe what you want, I'm not stopping you. On top of it all throw in the "I'm such a special boy, pay attention to me" of how much you've been lauded over by people for your religious knowledge. You want our attention, you need it to be fulfilled.

You are a beautiful and unique snowflake.

Once again you are missing the point. I went to a religious college as a means to and end. Not because I wanted to get "religious". The point of the Old Testament class story was that the prof thought my good grade meant I wanted to attend the college as a stepping stone to seminary.

I don't follow Christianity except that I agree there is a higher power...period.

I could give a crap for the attention. It was an unfortunate way to grow up and sucked big time. I was so concerned with being unique and getting attention I joined the militray so I could stand out in the crowd.

But enough of me Ahtman...you are right I am ill informed and full of half truths...I'm just a knuckle dragging troll...there is really no way I can stand up to the intellectual superiority that you have shown me. I bow before your vast intellect. How could I of thought to argue with such a treasure trove of knowledge and learning.

I'm just a beautiful and unique...fear the power of the snowflake! (edited to not insult Ahtman)

dogma wrote:

Ace_of_Spades wrote:

Dogma - I went to Baptist college as a means to an end...it offered the quickest route to a degree...a 4 year degree in 2 years of full time schooling. If I had to choose which God I think is the "right" one I like the OT one. I'm not a really big "God loves us one and all" kind of guy.

Yes I was raised Baptist until I was old enough to choose for my self. My Mom taught me her religious upbringing when I asked as a young teen. As I've gotten older the more I've learned and researched the more I'm more comfortable spiritually with her/our Shinto beliefs and history. I try to practice what I was taught/learned. Yes...I'm definitely one of those folks who are on the highway as you put it. I have family on my Dad's side who don't talk with me because of it.

I guess I should have been more specific. If you recognize that there were/are a great many people who accost you for your beliefs, and that they are wrong to be that way, then how can you hold faith in a God which acts in exactly that way? What makes your interpretation of the world one which deserves the privilege of a righteously judgmental deity?

I don't hold faith in Christianty. I believe/agree in a higher being that's where I agree with Christianity. I walked away from it when my infant son was taken from me...that's why believe that the Christian God is the OT one. How could a "being" take the life of a 16-day old child and consider this good? What has the infant ever done? So I went back to what my mother taught me.

That's what puts me at odds with some of my family and friends. If I had to choose between the two...Old Testament and New Testament....I prefer/preferred the OT. I think this notion of God is a loving God and all is forgiven...gooey gumdrops and unicorn sweetness isn't where I would put my faith. If a person chooses to believe that way then who am I to say they are wrong.

I have my beliefs...however muddled and full of half truths Ahtman says they are...that I try to fit myself into. Dogma, we have had parts of this conversation in other threads. Maybe I need to go back to school an re-educate myself so I'm smarter on everything "shrugs"...I have my core truths that I believe. Everyone does...it's human nature. That and $2.50 gets me a Chai tea with an espresso shot at the coffee shop.

AoS

"Fear My Power...I am a unique Snowflake!"

Ace_of_Spades wrote:I'm just a beautiful and unique snowflake and you are a pseudo-intellectual douche.

You really need to learn to control your temper. Name calling is against the rules, questioning someone isn't.

Ace_of_Spades wrote:however muddled and full of half truths Ahtman says they are

No, you present them as muddled and half understood. You seem to not be able to really explain yourself very clearly then get upset when your ideas don't come across the way you want them to.

Ahtman wrote:

Ace_of_Spades wrote:I'm just a beautiful and unique snowflake and you are a pseudo-intellectual douche.

You really need to learn to control your temper. Name calling is against the rules, questioning someone isn't.

Ace_of_Spades wrote:however muddled and full of half truths Ahtman says they are

No, you present them as muddled and half understood. You seem to not be able to really explain yourself very clearly then get upset when your ideas don't come across the way you want them to.

You know I lurked this site for a long time and listened to folks at my LGS get really down on Dakka Dakka. But I thought that this would be a good place to chat and pass ideas back and forth between like minded folks. So I finally signed up.

I post my opinion about this thread and add a story and I get what from you? You insult me and then get on with this "your temper is too quick...no name calling". I put my opinion out there and got into a discussion with folks in the thread. Dogma and I never seem to have a problem when we don't understand each other we do this thing called "asking a question for clarification." We may not see eye to eye but it stays civil.

I think that as long as I'm on this site you and I are probably going to agree to disagree on a ton of topics. I try to get along with everyone but can't please everyone either. I'll tell you what...I'll make an effort to treat this site and threads within it like I would when I have to teach a class or brief a topic at my job. I'll make every effort to painstakingly go through each and every line to ensure that it can't be misunderstood and remains crystal clear so that they aren't muddled and are easily understood. If I doubt that my comments/thoughts are not concise and could be misunderstood I'll PM you and you can give me the Ahtman seal of approval prior to my posting.

AoS

Ace_of_Spades wrote:
Nope I voted with who I felt most comfortable with...all religion aside. My ideology gets attacked all the time...it means I'm doing my job correctly. So after all is said and done I smile and press on. Besides if I didn't have y'all I'd have to do all those things on my "honey-do" list.

You sound like a deist, which I have no business with. If your religion truly does not effect your vote (On issues or candidates), then you are justified in saying I should toss off .

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Ace_of_Spades wrote:
Nope I voted with who I felt most comfortable with...all religion aside. My ideology gets attacked all the time...it means I'm doing my job correctly. So after all is said and done I smile and press on. Besides if I didn't have y'all I'd have to do all those things on my "honey-do" list.

You sound like a deist, which I have no business with. If your religion truly does not effect your vote (On issues or candidates), then you are justified in saying I should toss off .

Deism...is the belief that a supreme God exists and created the physical universe, and that religious truths can be arrived at by the application of reason alone, without dependence on revelation.

Too a point...but the application of reason isn't the only answer. I n some ways Ahtman is right...it gets a little fuzzy...there are too many things that reason/intellect cannot explain without the application of relevation. So I hold what I beleive to be the "religion" that works for me. Yep I can agree that there probably is a higher being sitting somewhere laughing at us trying to pigeon hole everything.

I voted for the candidate(s) that I felt best fell in line with the way my family and I see things.

You were being sarcastic, right?

AoS

Ace_of_Spades wrote:Too a point...but the application of reason isn't the only answer. I n some ways Ahtman is right...it gets a little fuzzy...there are too many things that reason/intellect cannot explain without the application of relevation. So I hold what I beleive to be the "religion" that works for me. Yep I can agree that there probably is a higher being sitting somewhere laughing at us trying to pigeon hole everything.

I voted for the candidate(s) that I felt best fell in line with the way my family and I see things.

You were being sarcastic, right?

AoS

Oh no, no sarcasm intended. I honestly have no beef with deism (although I do not subscribe)...although I will debate with deists for intellecutal masturbation and to help clarify my own life-view, perhaps even altering/expanding it. If your religion fails to interfere with my life, I don't care.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Ace_of_Spades wrote:Too a point...but the application of reason isn't the only answer. I n some ways Ahtman is right...it gets a little fuzzy...there are too many things that reason/intellect cannot explain without the application of relevation. So I hold what I beleive to be the "religion" that works for me. Yep I can agree that there probably is a higher being sitting somewhere laughing at us trying to pigeon hole everything.

I voted for the candidate(s) that I felt best fell in line with the way my family and I see things.

You were being sarcastic, right?

AoS

Oh no, no sarcasm intended. I honestly have no beef with deism (although I do not subscribe)...although I will debate with deists for intellecutal masturbation and to help clarify my own life-view, perhaps even altering/expanding it. If your religion fails to interfere with my life, I don't care.

Funny...I feel exactly the same way about other folks religon or lack there of. I have my reasons for believing the way I do...I had a vey simplified version in an early post in this thread to Dogma.

I enjoy a good discussion about a large amount of topics....but I realize that I'm learning something new everyday. That's why I enjoy the off topic board. It keeps me on my toes.

Ace_of_Spades wrote:I post my opinion about this thread and add a story and I get what from you? You insult me and then get on with this "your temper is too quick...no name calling".

You have an interesting way of remembering history, especially when it is so easy to go back and look at previous posts and see what happened. Your post seemed fishy to me and I said so. I didn't say you were a douche or an idiot or a fool. I said I had trouble believing you. You on the other hand absolutely were insulting and immediately came back with...

you can get for all I care.

so of course then I have to just enjoy myself at your expense. And I did. You could have asked what was it that I didn't believe or tried to clarify your position but you never did. If you can't explain what you think how is anyone else going to understand you? On one hand you bring up Christianity and then turn around and deny anything about Christianity. What kind of reaction do expect?

Ace_of_Spades wrote:I put my opinion out there and got into a discussion with folks in the thread.

This isn't an opinion, like "I like Saturday the best". This is your belief system.

Ace_of_Spades wrote:Dogma and I never seem to have a problem when we don't understand each other we do this thing called "asking a question for clarification."

Well we all can't be different people on different days with different situations with different outlooks. And again, the only person that really got hostile was you.

Ace_of_Spades wrote:I think that as long as I'm on this site you and I are probably going to agree to disagree on a ton of topics.

Yes, but we could also agree on a lot of topics to. You are still new, you'll find sometimes people agree and disagree. I'll also play devil's advocate to if I feel like spurning on more conversation.

Ace_of_Spades wrote:you can give me the Ahtman seal of approval prior to my posting.

I don't think you really want that, it is a mushroom print on the forehead. Besides, as I have stated before (reading is fundamental), you don't need my permission to say what you want. Of course that doesn't mean I have to just simply believe it either. This may not be 4chan or Somethingawful but it is still an internet board and there is a lot of lies and misinformation, both on purpose or through self-deceit, to just accept what people say unless you have known them for a while.

Ahtman, you may not have been overtly hostile, but your tone was condescending in the extreme. It often is, but possibly you're not aware of it.
At the same time, there's no need for insults either.

Hoo boy. Folks get mighty steamed about the smallest things around here. Religion tends to do that.

I don't let anyone's religion influence my voting.
I'm not religious. I DO NOT believe in any form of higher being, or of any existence after death.

I have my views on religion, and their not exactly kind towards it.

Sure, she's willing to quote scripture to serve her own ends - doesn't the book say something about the "other bloke" being able to do that as well?

Settle down, folks. You Americans have this freedom of religion thing - even to those whom you'd rather not have a voice. The sword cuts both ways.

Ahtman, I will agree that your tone did come off a bit hostile on my computer screen too. As you say, it’s a person’s beliefs. While an extreme contradiction (such as Old Testament god + ancestor worship) is worth questioning, it’s probably also worth being careful of the way you question it. While I disagree with AoS on a lot of things, I haven’t seen anything in his posts so far to indicate dishonesty. While skepticism of claims people make on the internet is certainly an important thing to have, I think you just expressed it a little harshly this time.

So I'm new here and trying to establish my forum 'cred I guess...I've made every effort to be honest..what have I got to lose?

I explained my reason for my world view/belief system...if folks want to take it for what it is then okay. If you want to disagree then okay...but don't come off condescending about it and not expect a response in kind.

Y'all are a good group of folks and I do enjoy 99.99% of all threads and discussions on the board. I guess I wasn't expecting this so soon...but religion is a funny thing in the end.

I'll make an effort to remain civil and more "open-minded" to everyone's opinion.

Faith is not always logical... if it was, it wouldn't be faith. It's not always in-line with orthodoxy, and it's only beholden to the individual who believes it. If I want to believe that Jesus was the mortal form of Old Man Coyote, who's to say I can't believe it? That's the joy of America: you're free to be crazy in whichever way makes you most happy ( as long as it doesn't directly hurt others).

Live and let live, and unless the person inflicts their faith on your life, let 'em believe as they like.

Janet Porter wrote:But you think this issue doesn't matter? God felt so strongly about it that he carved it in stone:

You shall not murder (Exodus 20:13)

Uhh, sorry, MOSES carved it, not God. Telling someone else to do it isn't actually doing it. Who knows? Maybe Moses did it on his own.

I have seen opposite to the article here in the UK.

Religious right, no sign of them -and that is a blessing. However we have the government meddling in the appointment of bishops and selction processes for the church in general - You dont get elevated unless you are New Labour first, Christian second if at all.

I remember being told to my face that you cannot be a Christian and not be a socialist by one vicar. Some of them are that blatant about it.

Orlanth wrote:I have seen opposite to the article here in the UK.

Religious right, no sign of them -and that is a blessing. However we have the government meddling in the appointment of bishops and selction processes for the church in general - You dont get elevated unless you are New Labour first, Christian second if at all.

I remember being told to my face that you cannot be a Christian and not be a socialist by one vicar. Some of them are that blatant about it.

Orlanth - What about the Archbishop of Cantebury agreeing to Sharia law being a good thing in the UK? I've been watching all the "peaceful" marches demanding Sharia in the UK.

There is sharia law and there is sharia law. The meaning of sharia law is much disputed by serious Islamic scholars.

In the UK we already have formal orthodox Jewish law governing certain aspects of family law providing both sides in a case agree to judgement under it.

We also have informal arrangements allowing traditional Somali or Ethiopian (I think, can't remember for sure) justice to be handled locally for very minor crimes and civil disputes. This is for things like putting dogs' eggs on someone's doorstep, non-payment of the local shop newspaper bill and suchlike.

So it is not a big stretch to allow Islamic family courts to have access to Islamic civil law by prior agreement.

There is a big step from that to chopping thieves' hands off and stoning adulterers. These are not necessarily accepted by all Islamic legal experts anyway.

I found it interesting. There have been little rumblings here in the US about possibly allowing things like that in predominate minority areas. The Melting Pot America will be gone if that becomes the way of things IMHO.

I think the melting pot still happens but it takes 2-3 generations before people become more of their now native country than of their parents' old country.

I mean if you look at California, is there a problem with Japanese-Americans not integrating into US society?

Although the UK is still about 94% white, we have many immigrants from places such as India, Pakistan, the West Indies and Nigeria who have come during the past 50 years. The children of these immigrants are basically British, though of course there are tensions and social problems such as forced marriages and honour killings.

It is a difficult issue. Sometimes forcing things, such as the French government's ban on religious trappings at school, can alienate the incomer population.

I think that many times immigrants come to a country and make every effort to integrate into the mainstream society. They still hold to the traditions that they carried with them when they arrived.

It is a difficult issue with no clear answer that will give either side of the equation closure.