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... it did.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=79276

Seriously, its that kind of people that makes us Europeans think that most of the people in the US are redneck guncrazy retards.

How can someone, as a woman, not be pro-choice ?
How can someone think socialism is the same as communism ?

How can someone be against providing for the sick who cannot pay there own bills anymore ? I mean, isnt that like in the bible or something ?

I can see how a woman can not be pro choice, and I can respect it.
But that article was crazy.

Calle wrote:Seriously, its that kind of people that makes us Europeans think that most of the people in the US are redneck guncrazy retards.

How can someone, as a woman, not be pro-choice ?
How can someone think socialism is the same as communism ?

How can someone be against providing for the sick who cannot pay there own bills anymore ? I mean, isnt that like in the bible or something ?

Well, the article would definitely be insulting for a Christian who plans on voting for Obama, but I don't see what is awful about it. This is her opinion, based on her interpretation of scripture. If you don't like it, don't read it.

What does this have to do with "guncrazy redneck retards"? Where in the article did she mention doing violence? Also, thank you for insulting everyone in my country. I'm not that angry about it because I know that most of the people of your country are probably world-wise enough not to generalize about a nation based on one article by someone with opinions that are fairly extreme even amongst those who share her general worldview.

Well, it is you who cannot understand how women can be pro-life, not a problem with women in general. I myself am middle of the road on that one, and it isn't something I get involved with, but I have a very good friend who is very much pro-life. She has very good reasons, other than religious ones, for feeling the way she does. If I was in her shoes, I'd probably feel the same way, but I'm not going to talk about her personal issues on a message board. The point is that she has been spit upon, had things thrown at her, and cursed at when she's been at completely legal, peaceful, protests of legal abortion. I don't necessarily share her black/white view that abortion in any form is absolutely wrong, but I respect her convictions and her willingness to put up with having abuse thrown at her because of it. I wouldn't do it, even if I believed the way she did.

I'd e-mail her the 'Dr Laura' letter, but then she probably gets that 10 times a day...

The thing that bugs me most about people like that is the fact that I actually respect her views. She is free to think, feel and believe anything she wants. What I'd like is for that courtesy to be extended back to me in return.

I don't agree with her positions, but I would never dream of calling for laws that would make such positions illegal - as the saying goes "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it."

People like her don't believe in freedom, they believe that authority should rest solely in the hands of those whose views are the same as theirs and that the rights and freedoms of everyone else should be curtailed. In case anyone doesn't know what such a society looks like, I would point you in the direction of such classics as Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan under the Taleban, Uganda under Amin or Nazi Germany.


Now it may just turn out that she was right all along and that when I die God will judge me as a heinous sinner for my beliefs. If that's the case then fine - I'm willing to submit to God's wisdom, but I'll be damned if I'll submit to hers.

Grignard wrote:Well, the article would definitely be insulting for a Christian who plans on voting for Obama, but I don't see what is awful about it. This is her opinion, based on her interpretation of scripture. If you don't like it, don't read it.

Everyone has a right to an opinion, sure, but that doesn't mean that other people can't point out that opinion is stupid. Afterall, my opinion that's she's an ill-informed reactionary chasing false demons is... just an opinion as well.

And she is an ill-informed reactionary, by the way. Arguing that Obama's plan to adjust the marginal tax rates back to the same levels as in Reagan's presidency is socialism is dumb.

I'm pretty sure telling someone there's soul is in danger because of their voting habits is a pretty crappy thing to do, as well. Might even be a sin.

It depends where you stand on the authority of the church and various schismatic or possibly heretical propositions.

To the best of my religious knowledge, a Roman Catholic would ignore such statements unless they came from a priest, and a priest would not make such statements since the possibility of forgiveness and redemption can never be denied.

Someone dropped some pamphlets off at a shop I frequent that made that article appear reasoned and well thought out. Basically it called the Catholic Church an evil organization controlled by Jews. It also goes on that Barack definitely is a Muslim and Racist and part of 9/11 plan to get a sleeper into the White House. McCain is a phony who can't be trusted as he isn't super Christian and maybe part of the Group of 300 or something like that. I just skimmed it. The gist was that World Government = Satan and that there were only a handful of "real" Christians as most are corrupted or lied to. Frightening stuff out there on the fringes.

I could throw a ton of bible quotes together to make the virgin Mary look like a serial killer if i wanted to.

What a load of crap.

Oh and by the way, I can respect her right to an opinion, without respecting her opinion

Kilkrazy wrote:It depends where you stand on the authority of the church and various schismatic or possibly heretical propositions.

To the best of my religious knowledge, a Roman Catholic would ignore such statements unless they came from a priest, and a priest would not make such statements since the possibility of forgiveness and redemption can never be denied.

They have bumper stickers here that say "You can't be Catholic and for abortion." I've seen them on the road.

Of course, the type of person who puts that on their SUV is almost certainly politically conservative and in favor of capital punishment and the Iraq war. And if you're Catholic and believe in the sanctity of life, you shouldn't be for those either. But who lets facts get in the way of their politically-charged bumper stickers? Facts aren't fun.

gorgon wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It depends where you stand on the authority of the church and various schismatic or possibly heretical propositions.

To the best of my religious knowledge, a Roman Catholic would ignore such statements unless they came from a priest, and a priest would not make such statements since the possibility of forgiveness and redemption can never be denied.

They have bumper stickers here that say "You can't be Catholic and for abortion." I've seen them on the road.

Of course, the type of person who puts that on their SUV is almost certainly politically conservative and in favor of capital punishment and the Iraq war. And if you're Catholic and believe in the sanctity of life, you shouldn't be for those either. But who lets facts get in the way of their politically-charged bumper stickers? Facts aren't fun.

Actually the young woman I described earlier is Catholic and anti capital punishment ( her church is at least, I haven't talked to her in depth about it ). I don't understand how your example is apropos to Kilkrazy's, and I don't agree that anyone who has that bumper sticker is "almost certainly" politically conservative and that everyone who is politically conservative is in favor of capital punishment and the war in Iraq.

I wasn't defending her or denying your right to criticize her at all, I was just pointing out that its not the end of the world nor do I *think* it represents the viewpoint of very many people, even amongst the very religious.

Kilkrazy wrote:It depends where you stand on the authority of the church and various schismatic or possibly heretical propositions.

To the best of my religious knowledge, a Roman Catholic would ignore such statements unless they came from a priest, and a priest would not make such statements since the possibility of forgiveness and redemption can never be denied.

Realistically, that depends a great deal on the Priest and the current Pope. Under John Paul II the Catholic Church was a comparative beacon of tolerance and compassion. Under Benedict this has started to ebb away. Though this, admittedly, has more to do with attracting members than having human decency. Catholicism is an institutional faith, and the only way it is going to survive in the coming years is by playing up that structure against the more free-wheeling populist strength of the growing 'non-denominational' Christian sector.

Or the time honored tradition of breeding more Catholics.

Yea, my guess is that they want to try and keep the people raised Catholic in the church by deeply regulating their lifestyle. Honestly, considering where the Church is growing (Latin America mostly), it is a pretty sound strategy.

Its time honored Dogma. Your strongest indicator of religious participation is whether you were born into it.

The Roman Catholic Church, like any long-lived institution, has gone through many changes in its time.

My impression is that John Paul II was a rather right wing pope, and deflected the Church from a number of modernistic or liberal moves it had started to make on various matters in the 70s.

Be that as it may, the website mentioned in the OP depends entirely on its own authority for interpretation of the Bible, probably using an English edition rather than the original Aramaic and ignoring the point that the New Testament was compiled several centuries after the death of Christ.

John Paul tried to preach a message of tolerance, while severely limiting progressive reforms in the Church itself. In the end, this drove away current members who were sickened by the Church's hypocrisy. This was compounded by the fact that it is hard to convince people to subject themselves to structure when that structure has no bearing on their standing in the 'eyes of the Lord'.

I run into people like that all the time. I tell them I'm an Atheist and the first thing they ALWAYS say back it "What's an Atheist?". They stick their heads in a bible and never take it out again, and they are brainwashed by their church leader and that's exactly the sort of dangerous elements that have been slowly taking over this country for the last eight years. They either get their own way or they make things miserable for everybody else.

dogma wrote:John Paul tried to preach a message of tolerance, while severely limiting progressive reforms in the Church itself. In the end, this drove away current members who were sickened by the Church's hypocrisy. This was compounded by the fact that it is hard to convince people to subject themselves to structure when that structure has no bearing on their standing in the 'eyes of the Lord'.

What about George Ringo?

Evangelical Christians are hardcore in their faith. Their faith is what keeps them going through good and bad. A lot of my family is Evangelical Christian and or very devout Southern Baptist. I even went to a Southern Baptist college. The Old Testament professor asked me to go to seminary school and become a preacher because my "grasp of the fundementals of a OT God were excellent." Me...raised Southern Baptist and Shinto (with a little old school Okinawan shamanism thrown in) what a hoot!

I personally like to see folks exercise their freedom of religion...it's one of the foundations of my great country. Some folks get a tad extreme but still that is their right.

To judge this country by this one article would be a disappointment on a grand scale for all the folks from other countries. Having worked pretty extensively in a NATO environment and with lots of other non-NATO countries I've been lucky enough to be exposed to other world citizens. For the most part I've enjoyed what I have learned and expierienced. So I would hope y'all would give Americans the same nod of good faith.

Besides if it comes down to it and the country goes to the crapper then I'll just have to move back to the great country of Texas!

AoS

Yes. I think a lot of the time we Europeans notice the "shouty" Americans a lot more than the silent majority.

One thing British people really dislike is "shouty" people.

It doesn't help when the president of said country fits under the same stereotype.

Ace_of_Spades wrote:"grasp of the fundementals of a OT God were excellent."

Operational Thetan? God is into Scientology?

Ace_of_Spades wrote:Me...raised Southern Baptist and Shinto (with a little old school Okinawan shamanism thrown in) what a hoot!

I have trouble believing this on several levels.

Ahtman wrote:

Ace_of_Spades wrote:"grasp of the fundementals of a OT God were excellent."

Operational Thetan? God is into Scientology?

Ace_of_Spades wrote:Me...raised Southern Baptist and Shinto (with a little old school Okinawan shamanism thrown in) what a hoot!

I have trouble believing this on several levels.

Why Ahtman? If I believe in a higher power that's my gig...I like to think that the Big Guy/Gal upstairs is the Old Testament (OT) kind. Fire and Brimstone...my way or the highway...actually I liked the Old Testament and the historical aspects of the Bible (I'm big into history). Scientology is a "religion" created by a really great sci-fi writer (that's all I'll say about that).

Ahtman...I'll see if you can pick up what I'm putting down here. My Dad is from a Southern Baptist family so I attended Baptist churches until I was considered old enough to make my own choice. My Mom is from Okinawa...she was raised Shinto (the Japanese main religion) and her family (which traces its roots back to the old Okinawan Dynasty prior to Japanese invasion) still holds some of the old school shamanistic beliefs. They actually dovetail somewhat into Shinto.

I believe in a higher being (my Judeo-Christian/Western upbringing) and I believe that my ancestor's spirits watch over me and provide protection and comfort to me an my own. Not to belabor that point...but I believe the spirit of my first son is the guardian spirit of all my surviving children. All of them have had an "imaginary friend" who happens to look like their older brother. I also think my deceased Grandfather has watched out for me on my combat deployments.

So wether you believe me on some of those so many levels doesn't really matter to me...you can get for all I care. I believe what I believe...it's my right. Besides I don't believe you were raised in my family. Are you my long lost brother from another mother?

Ace_of_Spades wrote:
So wether you believe me on some of those so many levels doesn't really matter to me...you can get for all I care.

I see the Christian side now. Still doubt the rest as anything more then delusion of uniqueness and exoticism.

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes. I think a lot of the time we Europeans notice the "shouty" Americans a lot more than the silent majority.

One thing British people really dislike is "shouty" people.

Really? I remember attending quite a few football games and rugby matches with other "shouty" Brits. I had a blast both playing and watching.

Ace_of_Spades wrote:

Why Ahtman? If I believe in a higher power that's my gig...I like to think that the Big Guy/Gal upstairs is the Old Testament (OT) kind. Fire and Brimstone...my way or the highway...actually I liked the Old Testament and the historical aspects of the Bible (I'm big into history). Scientology is a "religion" created by a really great sci-fi writer (that's all I'll say about that).

Ahtman...I'll see if you can pick up what I'm putting down here. My Dad is from a Southern Baptist family so I attended Baptist churches until I was considered old enough to make my own choice. My Mom is from Okinawa...she was raised Shinto (the Japanese main religion) and her family (which traces its roots back to the old Okinawan Dynasty prior to Japanese invasion) still holds some of the old school shamanistic beliefs. They actually dovetail somewhat into Shinto.

I believe in a higher being (my Judeo-Christian/Western upbringing) and I believe that my ancestor's spirits watch over me and provide protection and comfort to me an my own. Not to belabor that point...but I believe the spirit of my first son is the guardian spirit of all my surviving children. All of them have had an "imaginary friend" who happens to look like their older brother. I also think my deceased Grandfather has watched out for me on my combat deployments.

So wether you believe me on some of those so many levels doesn't really matter to me...you can get for all I care. I believe what I believe...it's my right. Besides I don't believe you were raised in my family. Are you my long lost brother from another mother?

I mean this with no disrespect, but if you believe in an Old Testament God, your concurrent belief in Shinto ancestors would most definitely put you on 'the highway'.

Ace_of_Spades wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Ace_of_Spades wrote:"grasp of the fundementals of a OT God were excellent."

Operational Thetan? God is into Scientology?

Ace_of_Spades wrote:Me...raised Southern Baptist and Shinto (with a little old school Okinawan shamanism thrown in) what a hoot!

I have trouble believing this on several levels.

Why Ahtman? If I believe in a higher power that's my gig...I like to think that the Big Guy/Gal upstairs is the Old Testament (OT) kind. Fire and Brimstone...my way or the highway...actually I liked the Old Testament and the historical aspects of the Bible (I'm big into history). Scientology is a "religion" created by a really great sci-fi writer (that's all I'll say about that).

Ahtman...I'll see if you can pick up what I'm putting down here. My Dad is from a Southern Baptist family so I attended Baptist churches until I was considered old enough to make my own choice. My Mom is from Okinawa...she was raised Shinto (the Japanese main religion) and her family (which traces its roots back to the old Okinawan Dynasty prior to Japanese invasion) still holds some of the old school shamanistic beliefs. They actually dovetail somewhat into Shinto.

I believe in a higher being (my Judeo-Christian/Western upbringing) and I believe that my ancestor's spirits watch over me and provide protection and comfort to me an my own. Not to belabor that point...but I believe the spirit of my first son is the guardian spirit of all my surviving children. All of them have had an "imaginary friend" who happens to look like their older brother. I also think my deceased Grandfather has watched out for me on my combat deployments.

So wether you believe me on some of those so many levels doesn't really matter to me...you can get for all I care. I believe what I believe...it's my right. Besides I don't believe you were raised in my family. Are you my long lost brother from another mother?

*Shrug*, do your beliefs alter your vote? If so, then expect it to be challenged like any other ideology.

dogma wrote:

Ace_of_Spades wrote:

Why Ahtman? If I believe in a higher power that's my gig...I like to think that the Big Guy/Gal upstairs is the Old Testament (OT) kind. Fire and Brimstone...my way or the highway...actually I liked the Old Testament and the historical aspects of the Bible (I'm big into history). Scientology is a "religion" created by a really great sci-fi writer (that's all I'll say about that).

Ahtman...I'll see if you can pick up what I'm putting down here. My Dad is from a Southern Baptist family so I attended Baptist churches until I was considered old enough to make my own choice. My Mom is from Okinawa...she was raised Shinto (the Japanese main religion) and her family (which traces its roots back to the old Okinawan Dynasty prior to Japanese invasion) still holds some of the old school shamanistic beliefs. They actually dovetail somewhat into Shinto.

I believe in a higher being (my Judeo-Christian/Western upbringing) and I believe that my ancestor's spirits watch over me and provide protection and comfort to me an my own. Not to belabor that point...but I believe the spirit of my first son is the guardian spirit of all my surviving children. All of them have had an "imaginary friend" who happens to look like their older brother. I also think my deceased Grandfather has watched out for me on my combat deployments.

So wether you believe me on some of those so many levels doesn't really matter to me...you can get for all I care. I believe what I believe...it's my right. Besides I don't believe you were raised in my family. Are you my long lost brother from another mother?

I mean this with no disrespect, but if you believe in an Old Testament God, your concurrent belief in Shinto ancestors would most definitely put you on 'the highway'.

Dogma - I went to Baptist college as a means to an end...it offered the quickest route to a degree...a 4 year degree in 2 years of full time schooling. If I had to choose which God I think is the "right" one I like the OT one. I'm not a really big "God loves us one and all" kind of guy.

Yes I was raised Baptist until I was old enough to choose for my self. My Mom taught me her religious upbringing when I asked as a young teen. As I've gotten older the more I've learned and researched the more I'm more comfortable spiritually with her/our Shinto beliefs and history. I try to practice what I was taught/learned. Yes...I'm definitely one of those folks who are on the highway as you put it. I have family on my Dad's side who don't talk with me because of it.

I see the Christian side now. Still doubt the rest as anything more then delusion of uniqueness and exoticism.

Ahtman - It's how I was raised. If I'm delusional then I'm happily delusional then. I am what I am I grew up in the US (Texas) and in Japan. My mother is/was a heavy influence on me and I hold my Okinawan values very closely. But you can believe what you want. I just think there may be a bit of jealousy on your part because of my "uniqueness" as you put it. Why? Do you wish you were unique?

You know what my uniqueness got me growing up. Beat up for being the only Asian kid in class. Picked on for being physically smaller than everyone else and different. Then when I got a little older and was able to defend myself it got me reputation for not backing down from anybody. Then it became a game to see how long it took me to fight with someone. It got my mom/sister and I called racial slurs and derogatory comments.

So do I hold myself as unique and exotic as you put it...yes I believe that I am unique because of the things I was taught and how I was brought up. Just like I think everyone else is unique in their own way. I proud of who I am and what I believe.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Ace_of_Spades wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Ace_of_Spades wrote:"grasp of the fundementals of a OT God were excellent."

Operational Thetan? God is into Scientology?

Ace_of_Spades wrote:Me...raised Southern Baptist and Shinto (with a little old school Okinawan shamanism thrown in) what a hoot!

I have trouble believing this on several levels.

Why Ahtman? If I believe in a higher power that's my gig...I like to think that the Big Guy/Gal upstairs is the Old Testament (OT) kind. Fire and Brimstone...my way or the highway...actually I liked the Old Testament and the historical aspects of the Bible (I'm big into history). Scientology is a "religion" created by a really great sci-fi writer (that's all I'll say about that).

Ahtman...I'll see if you can pick up what I'm putting down here. My Dad is from a Southern Baptist family so I attended Baptist churches until I was considered old enough to make my own choice. My Mom is from Okinawa...she was raised Shinto (the Japanese main religion) and her family (which traces its roots back to the old Okinawan Dynasty prior to Japanese invasion) still holds some of the old school shamanistic beliefs. They actually dovetail somewhat into Shinto.

I believe in a higher being (my Judeo-Christian/Western upbringing) and I believe that my ancestor's spirits watch over me and provide protection and comfort to me an my own. Not to belabor that point...but I believe the spirit of my first son is the guardian spirit of all my surviving children. All of them have had an "imaginary friend" who happens to look like their older brother. I also think my deceased Grandfather has watched out for me on my combat deployments.

So wether you believe me on some of those so many levels doesn't really matter to me...you can get for all I care. I believe what I believe...it's my right. Besides I don't believe you were raised in my family. Are you my long lost brother from another mother?

*Shrug*, do your beliefs alter your vote? If so, then expect it to be challenged like any other ideology.

Nope I voted with who I felt most comfortable with...all religion aside. My ideology gets attacked all the time...it means I'm doing my job correctly. So after all is said and done I smile and press on. Besides if I didn't have y'all I'd have to do all those things on my "honey-do" list.