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Railguns wrote:Genius as usual H.B.M.C.

But whoever said that Chaos gets an Armor 13 superdread with a battlecannon.....its armor 12. As long as we are on the subject, I'd rather have Sternguard than Chosen, but I swore never to play power armor unless it was really evil and I could explain it away as something that wasn't really marines.

And I would rather have plaguemarines then sternguard. THIS GAME IS FUN.

I wonder why they don't make a few shovels to free up some space in their transports. All those extra skulls take up a lot of room!

I thought CSMs were the first to use drop pods too? Why did they say "Man that was fun falling out of the sky and killing everyone. Oh well f--- this drop pod we don't need it anymore" that doesn't make sense to me. You'd think they'd hall it back up to the ship for another go in the future.

Helltalons are boarding craft that can be used as drop pods. Chaos forces don't have the resupply to keep replacing them though, and they already have fully functioning teleportation arrays and gods that will just do it for them.

Techboss wrote:GW doesn't know or adhere to any of the fluff they write. I'm sure CSM will get a new Defiler variant and another spawn variant in the near future. They will of course be heavy support because CSM is lacking in that area.

I hope that's sarcasm. Oblits are all you need. There are a lot of heavies but they all pale to obliterators. What chaos needs is fast attack. There are only two FOC selections available to them. Both of them rather vanilla, bikes and jump packs. Chaos Spawn actually being paid for in an army is a joke.

Typeline wrote: I hope that's sarcasm.

Of course it is. I'm not as dumb as GW, see CSM FA units.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Railguns wrote:Genius as usual H.B.M.C.

But whoever said that Chaos gets an Armor 13 superdread with a battlecannon.....its armor 12. As long as we are on the subject, I'd rather have Sternguard than Chosen, but I swore never to play power armor unless it was really evil and I could explain it away as something that wasn't really marines.

And I would rather have plaguemarines then sternguard. THIS GAME IS FUN.




Whoah slow down there, not insulting you or anything. Jus saying, not making an argument out of it. :S

KingCracker wrote:IMO i dont see why chaos cant and DONT just scavenge imperial equipment. seriously you think after a long battle they dont send the cultists out there to get the good stuff?
"oh SWEET! the brand new mark89776-hgu2334 storm bolter! man thats a nice gun.... BUUUUUUUuuuuuut im keeping my crappy twin linked bolt gun. i mean i named it sooooo...."
NO THATS STUPID! besides they all had the exact same training! your telling me they couldnt pick up modern SM equipment and figure it ou in a short period of time?

I can't really see that many mint-condition Land Speeders just lying around after a battle.

Railguns wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Railguns wrote:Genius as usual H.B.M.C.

But whoever said that Chaos gets an Armor 13 superdread with a battlecannon.....its armor 12. As long as we are on the subject, I'd rather have Sternguard than Chosen, but I swore never to play power armor unless it was really evil and I could explain it away as something that wasn't really marines.

And I would rather have plaguemarines then sternguard. THIS GAME IS FUN.




Whoah slow down there, not insulting you or anything. Jus saying, not making an argument out of it. :S

Sorry .

SO...Chaos can't manage the upkeep on Land Speeders but they can maintain a variety of titans.

Mmm-kay.

Howard A Treesong wrote:SO...Chaos can't manage the upkeep on Land Speeders but they can maintain a variety of titans.

Mmm-kay.

Well yes. This is because Land Speeders run on Dilithium Crystals which shatter when exposed to warp stone.

Don't you read the fluff?

Actually anti grav devices are exceedingly difficult to upkeep and essentially need to be replaced. Chaos Titans self repair and are possessed by daemons... They also had tons of them during the heresy, and they last forever. It makes sense. Chaos forces have what they had when they rebelled, when they lost the forge worlds they lost access to higher end technology with a lot of upkeep requirements.

So what would the "Dark Mechanicus" do then? I think it would actually be pretty awesome if they had made some sort of "anti-grav" vehicle that instead of using normal a-g plates or whatever, it used the physics warping power of warp energy, siphoned through a bound deamon, to keep it aloft.

That would actually make a cool Defiler.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:My memory is that since CSMs aren't so good at maintenance (those slimy tentacles just can't hold a spanner) a lot of their advanced gear quickly falls apart. Hence no whirlwinds, land speeders, drop pods et al.

What the hell is the point of keeping the Chaos Squats around, then? Oh, right. Daemon engines.

Here's the real deal. The Chaos Squats (and the Dark Mechanicus) are too busy building Defilers and Brass Scorpions and Silver Towers and such to be bothered with dinky little landspeeders.

yeah,
Fluff: there is no good reason not to have Landspeeders, because why do all the recently turned renegade chapters, and pirates have no access to the new tech?

Codex/Rules: there are plenty of reasons not to give you all the options... having gaps in the unit mobility/firepower trade-off, lacking certain capabilities makes list building harder... and as it has already been pointed out, this is the cornerstone of making each codex a bit different.. or else we all could play marines but have different fluff...
Spikey marines...
vampire marines...
roman marines...
stupid marines...
all with the same stuff and same stats different fluff... boring...


PAnic..

Chaos' version of Landspeeders is Spawn.

Then we should probably be arguing about usefulness of options, rather than who gets what, no?

ShumaGorath wrote:The STC for land speeders was recovered at the same time as the land raider but only the land raider was deemed useful in the heavy assault role that the space marine legions played. Since the heresy the focus of loyalist space marines has turned to fast strikes and crippling precision actions, so the utility of the land speeder warented its difficult construction.

If that "home grown" fluff, or from a source? If source; Mind citing the resource? I'd love to take a peek.

ShumaGorath wrote:Chaos doesn't get it because chaos doesn't have the adeptus mechanicus forgeworlds. They just have to be happy with their armor 13 superdreadnaut that has a battlecanon.

...What unit does this refer to? The closest one I know of is a Defiler, but it's Armor 12.


Eric

Chaos doesn't have Land Speeders because they were not widespread prior to the Heresy. Of course renegades who have recently turned from the Imperium would probably still have access to their Land Speeders and Razorbacks and Storm Bolters and Assault Cannons and Drop Pods, but such recent renegades are not the focus of the latest edition of the Chaos codex and therefore you don't see their equipment in the latest edition of the Chaos codex. Instead the latest edition of the Chaos codex focuses primarily on the pre-heresy legions and not on warbands composed of a random assortment of recent renegades that nobody ever heard of until we saw their illustrations in the latest edition of the Chaos codex. This is why the latest edition of the Chaos codex has rules for all 9 original legions and cult terminators and stuff.

yeah,

STC - Lexicanum wrote:Probably the most significant find of an STC fragment was by Magos Arkhan Land in M31. This fragment contained the templates for the construction of the now famous Land Raider Main Battle Tank, the Land Speeder, all named in honour of their discoverer.

ref...
UK White Dwarf 245, pg 21, by Gav Thorpe

Panic...

It would be good if those renegade chapters could show themselves

George Spiggott wrote:They melt them down to make spikes for their armour.

Naw, they just get demon possessed and run/fly off. This makes them extremely difficult to round up so in general you just don't see them.

If that "home grown" fluff, or from a source? If source; Mind citing the resource? I'd love to take a peek.

Probably the most significant find of an STC fragment was by Magos Arkhan Land in M31. This fragment contained the templates for the construction of the now famous Land Raider Main Battle Tank, the Land Speeder, all named in honour of their discoverer.

ref...
UK White Dwarf 245, pg 21, by Gav Thorpe

Chaos doesn't have Land Speeders because they were not widespread prior to the Heresy. Of course renegades who have recently turned from the Imperium would probably still have access to their Land Speeders and Razorbacks and Storm Bolters and Assault Cannons and Drop Pods, but such recent renegades are not the focus of the latest edition of the Chaos codex and therefore you don't see their equipment in the latest edition of the Chaos codex. Instead the latest edition of the Chaos codex focuses primarily on the pre-heresy legions and not on warbands composed of a random assortment of recent renegades that nobody ever heard of until we saw their illustrations in the latest edition of the Chaos codex. This is why the latest edition of the Chaos codex has rules for all 9 original legions and cult terminators and stuff.

First of all the fluff described is renegade warbands, not chapters. These are sections of chapters that simply "dissapear" and go join the corsairs or another standing chaos force. A full chapter turning at once is an immensely rare event.

But since you obviously don't care here's an easy answer to that one. Do a counts as marine force. As a newly turned renegade chapter isn't going to have access to things like defilers and chaos spawn and will still have most of their armory intact. Just put some spiky bits on your marines/scratch out the aquilas and give them a scary paint job.

I think between low maintainance capabilities and irregular use pre-heresey are good enough reasons to say Chaos doesn't have land speeders.

I however would believe that they would seek something to fill that need, like big flying demon or warp creature. Something tied more directly to the realm of their gods, that would make them more "reliable." I say "reliable" because look at the dreadnought.

Why? Chaos marines are not a fast strike force like the marines are. A sizeable legion force can be many times a full chapter in size, the land speeder doesn't actually suit their style of blunt hammer warfare. Marines use land speeders because they are good at sneaking behind enemy lines and hitting vital areas with a minimum of expended force, the chaos marines don't use these tactics as standard because they don't need too.

The real question is, how do you justify them not having whirlwinds? And crusaders? And all of the other things that shouldn't be any more high maintenance than Land Raiders and Terminator Armor, and would be fairly accessible to any traitor chapter (or company, even)?

Firstly the nonstandard land raider designs like the crusader are supposedly rare even among space marine chapters. A lot of chapters simply don't trust the variants or have no access to them. They also came about in the latter half of the last ten thousand years, and without reproduction capability the ones captured or stolen by renegades would be exceedingly rare. The chaos legions are basically what they were ten thousand years ago when they had the basic pattern of land raider with twin linked bolters, they took a lot of them when they left (more than half the remaining in service if I remember right).

The argument that chaos should have land speeders and crusaders is basically the same as one saying that they should have leman russes and bassilisks. I'm sure they have them, they probably have tons of leman russes. They just don't use them in a standard chaos space marine force because its not what they used when they rebelled. A lot of the guys from 10,000 years ago are still around in the eye of terror.

As for the whirlwind, I have no idea. They probably have a couple, just not enough to represent an entry in the main codex.

But really, is a background justification for something "not" being available really going to fly in freaking Warhammer Grimdark Terminator Starship Troopers Lord of the Rings in Power Armor Space Elf Dragon Battle Nun Chainsaw Priest Corpse God Magic Psychic SkullDemon Acid Bullet Virus Grenade Machine Cult Bible Koran Crusades Space Japan Akira 40k?

Ummm... Maybe?

It just seems so silly to me really, thats all.

My theory is that Titans require lots of anti-gravity plating to operate, and that any Landspeeders that come into the possession of Chaos Space Marines are more valuable as barter for the services of the Traitor Titan Legions than as fighting vehicles.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Chaos doesn't have Land Speeders because they were not widespread prior to the Heresy. Of course renegades who have recently turned from the Imperium would probably still have access to their Land Speeders and Razorbacks and Storm Bolters and Assault Cannons and Drop Pods, but such recent renegades are not the focus of the latest edition of the Chaos codex and therefore you don't see their equipment in the latest edition of the Chaos codex. Instead the latest edition of the Chaos codex focuses primarily on the pre-heresy legions and not on warbands composed of a random assortment of recent renegades that nobody ever heard of until we saw their illustrations in the latest edition of the Chaos codex. This is why the latest edition of the Chaos codex has rules for all 9 original legions and cult terminators and stuff.

Incorrect and to quote the CSM Codex pg 17:

Chaos Renegades

...the forces of Chaos have been further swelled by Space Marines that have turned from the light of the Emperor to pursue their own agendas...

Seems to me like includes ALL versions of Chaos, from the original traitors to the Space Marine who recently told his Vet Sgt to go pound sand. Fact is, the reason CSM don't get Land Speeders is because at one time, someone decided CSM weren't supposed to be just spikey SM. When GW gutted the CSM codex, they used the units that had originally been assigned CSM by some who had a brain. Unfortunately, they also decided CSM needed spawn, cause spawn are cool.

Point being, if their were more than one good CSM fast attack choice, we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Railguns wrote:So what would the "Dark Mechanicus" do then?

Mostly sit around drinking beer and figuring out how to attach mechanical legs to stuff...