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And they manufacture spikes as well. The buy-back/trading scheme is only open for Chapters that have just turned traitor. Once that offer is over they have to buy them from more local sources.

And you just know the Dark Mechanicus charge an arm and a tentacle for their spikes...

BYE

But they're great spikes.

If daemons and warp warping is so integral to new CSM technology why do they lose more of their mutant arsenal every codex. EX. Oblits lose Heavy Bolters? Why? No upkeep on their warp warped, techonovirus, bizzaro bodies?

Didn't they gain weapons though? I think they lost heavy bolters because fluffwise they shoot energies that come from the warp so they don't get to use guns that have ammo.

ShumaGorath wrote:Didn't they gain weapons though? I think they lost heavy bolters because fluffwise they shoot energies that come from the warp so they don't get to use guns that have ammo.

Good argument, I except this. But I still want HBs back.

Well, they did lose that restriction that you couldn't have multiple obliterators in a unit morph the same weapons at once. They have what now? Heavy flamers, plasma cannons, multi-meltas, twin linked plasma guns, twin linkes melta guns, and lascannons? Pretty much anti-MEQ and progressively better anti-tank the closer they get with a flamer attack thrown in for good measure. I still think they are extremely useful, but they are easier to kill now and are expensive models.

Surely to make the equivalent of a Land Speeder the Chaos forces would just bind a daemon into the vehicle, they have plenty of flying creatures afterall, they could tie a few Tzeentch Screamers to the bottom.

Why no chaos land speeder?

The Chaos forces, being agains rules, do NOT learn how to drive before beiing assign to a vehicule.

"We all picked out a bike each. (...) Only one of us managed to reach the destination without crashing"
(ref, diary of a space marine)

And, flying a aircraft is quite deadly, even for a chaos space marine.

So, Yes they have it, yes they steal it, yes they fly it.
Once
Then they die.

ShumaGorath wrote:First of all the fluff described is renegade warbands, not chapters. These are sections of chapters that simply "dissapear" and go join the corsairs or another standing chaos force. A full chapter turning at once is an immensely rare event.

So why do these "renegade warbands" all have pre-heresy equipment? Where do they get all their reaper autocannons? What happened to their storm bolters? It's not like storm bolters are exceedingly rare considering they stick one on every single Rhino and Drop Pod produced. I can understand the original 9 traitor legions being equipped entirely with pre-heresy equipment but the focus of the Chaos codex is supposed to be "renegade warbands" not traitor legions.

That and Anti-Grav tech is barely understood by the Imperium. The Chaos Forces, much like the other more advanced kit they are forced to abandon, simply do not have the resources or the know how to maintain them. And when you consider the comparatively limited use of such things, the bigger and better machines take precedence.

Remember, Chaos Marines work in Warbands of anything from a handful to a few hundred. They are not Chapters. The Legions are more a catch all term for a point of origin than anything organised. The spikes and horns and things like that are decoration added by the individual to make them look more fearsome to the enemy.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:First of all the fluff described is renegade warbands, not chapters. These are sections of chapters that simply "dissapear" and go join the corsairs or another standing chaos force. A full chapter turning at once is an immensely rare event.

So why do these "renegade warbands" all have pre-heresy equipment? Where do they get all their reaper autocannons? What happened to their storm bolters? It's not like storm bolters are exceedingly rare considering they stick one on every single Rhino and Drop Pod produced. I can understand the original 9 traitor legions being equipped entirely with pre-heresy equipment but the focus of the Chaos codex is supposed to be "renegade warbands" not traitor legions.

No thats the focus of a large portion of the fluff. They also cover the legions, which is where one would assume the renegades would get their stuff, since it's hard to take your entire armory with you when you're thunderhawk "disappears". The tyranid codex focus' on plannetary scale invasions of billions of ravening creatures. Why don't I get to outnumber my opponent 60 to one in every engagement? Why can the necrons be killed at all? Use that thing in your skull, guardsman go traitor and get subsumed as cultists in the legions all the time, yet I don't see you whining that you don't get full IG armored support in the base book.

Because then he'd be playing the Lost and the Damned.


Oh wait.

in apoc you could paint one up all chaosy and use it as an allied force with the rules from codex: space marines

I remember when this idea of chaos having land speeders was covered in their codex. Of course that was 2nd Ed. The rule was simply that you paid 50% more for the speeder.

This game is based on points values and as such you can adapt anything so long as you pay a fair points value for its use.

If it's not officially covered in the codex you need opponent's permission.

ah well back to work

ShumaGorath wrote:Use that thing in your skull, guardsman go traitor and get subsumed as cultists in the legions all the time, yet I don't see you whining that you don't get full IG armored support in the base book.

I don't get cultists either, Einstein.

I actually see a lot of people complaining about the lack of cultists in the chaos books.
Maybe not Abadabadoobaddon in particular but the sentiment is out there.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Use that thing in your skull, guardsman go traitor and get subsumed as cultists in the legions all the time, yet I don't see you whining that you don't get full IG armored support in the base book.

I don't get cultists either, Einstein.

Correct! So it stands to reason that despite the fluffy focus its the same army its always been. The mixed traitor legions that fled into the eye of terror 10 thousand years ago and occasonally new recruits from rogue elements of loyalist chapters thrown in to replace losses.

I actually see a lot of people complaining about the lack of cultists in the chaos books.
Maybe not Abadabadoobaddon in particular but the sentiment is out there.

Yeah, that was the one omission that bugged me when they released the book. No one ever used them (and definitely wouldn't now in fifth) but the option was fluffy and shouldn't have been left out. The daemons i understood because it was clear that they were creating a spinoff army, but I doubt we're going to see a traitor guard codex anytime soon.

ShumaGorath wrote:So it stands to reason that despite the fluffy focus its the same army its always been. The mixed traitor legions that fled into the eye of terror 10 thousand years ago and occasonally new recruits from rogue elements of loyalist chapters thrown in to replace losses.

The previous Chaos codex did a good job of representing the traitor legions. The latest Chaos codex does an okay job of representing Black Legion minus cultists, but that's about it. It doesn't do a good job of representing the other traitor legions (no warsmiths, no dark apostles, no rubric terminators, no Death Guard havocs, etc) but doesn't do a good job of representing renegade chapters either (if the Red Corsairs have only been renegade since 901.M41 where did all their storm bolters go?).

Also, this focus on "mixed traitor legions" is new. Prior to the latest codex warbands were usually mono-legion affairs - ie, Emperor's Children warbands, Iron Warriors warbands, etc. The latest codex goes out of its way to push these "mixed" warbands where you have a squad of Night Lords, a squad of Word Bearers, a squad of Death Guard, and a squad of some no-name renegade chapter nobody ever heard of. This new emphasis on mixed armies was a pretty obvious attempt to get Chaos players to forget about all their old themed mono-legion armies from the last codex.

Even the much malgined Pete Haines himself recognized that mono-legion Chaos armies were the preference of most Chaos players; he said it himself in a WD article concerning how they wrote the last Codex.

ShumaGorath wrote:

No thats the focus of a large portion of the fluff. They also cover the legions, which is where one would assume the renegades would get their stuff, since it's hard to take your entire armory with you when you're thunderhawk "disappears".

But not every renegade marine is going to go to the Eye of Terror. I mean the Red Corsairs are in the Maelstrom. Red Corsairs who were the focus of the current Codex.

Infact with the original Huron rules you could take stuff from the Ultramarine codex but with reduced Daemon Summoning. Corsair Terminators had the newer equipment.

Techboss wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Chaos doesn't have Land Speeders because they were not widespread prior to the Heresy. Of course renegades who have recently turned from the Imperium would probably still have access to their Land Speeders and Razorbacks and Storm Bolters and Assault Cannons and Drop Pods, but such recent renegades are not the focus of the latest edition of the Chaos codex and therefore you don't see their equipment in the latest edition of the Chaos codex. Instead the latest edition of the Chaos codex focuses primarily on the pre-heresy legions and not on warbands composed of a random assortment of recent renegades that nobody ever heard of until we saw their illustrations in the latest edition of the Chaos codex. This is why the latest edition of the Chaos codex has rules for all 9 original legions and cult terminators and stuff.

Incorrect and to quote the CSM Codex pg 17:

Chaos Renegades

...the forces of Chaos have been further swelled by Space Marines that have turned from the light of the Emperor to pursue their own agendas...

Seems to me like includes ALL versions of Chaos, from the original traitors to the Space Marine who recently told his Vet Sgt to go pound sand. Fact is, the reason CSM don't get Land Speeders is because at one time, someone decided CSM weren't supposed to be just spikey SM. When GW gutted the CSM codex, they used the units that had originally been assigned CSM by some who had a brain. Unfortunately, they also decided CSM needed spawn, cause spawn are cool.

Point being, if their were more than one good CSM fast attack choice, we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation.

What is the one "good" chaos fast attack choice? Besides the obvious spawn of course.

Chad Warden wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

No thats the focus of a large portion of the fluff. They also cover the legions, which is where one would assume the renegades would get their stuff, since it's hard to take your entire armory with you when you're thunderhawk "disappears".

But not every renegade marine is going to go to the Eye of Terror. I mean the Red Corsairs are in the Maelstrom. Red Corsairs who were the focus of the current Codex.

Infact with the original Huron rules you could take stuff from the Ultramarine codex but with reduced Daemon Summoning. Corsair Terminators had the newer equipment.

I would expect a lot of that to come out of the legion books they are designing. The codex is essentially filler for a semi undevided basic chaos force and exists separate from the demon book. It also looks like it is going to exist separate from the legion books who will probably regain things like specialized demon summoning. I believe they were trying to get away from the mighty, exploitable, and confusing tome that was the old book by splitting what are essentially over seven different army books into three or more separate codexes. The previous chaos book was like smashing witch and daemon hunters as well as space marines and seven individual and very different chapters into a single codex. It was confusing and didn't function well. Unfortunately they are waiting too long to release the legion books and people are starting to think that they just want a cut down and idiot friendly version of the codex.

Time works differently in the depths of the Eye of Terror.

It can be forzen for long periods, then it can suddenly leap thousands of years in a day.

Who can understand the powers and motivations of the Lords of Chaos?

They'll only get new variants if there's a new model to sell. No new model, no new rules.

By the fluff, it's because speeders weren't widely available at the time of the heresy.

If you want to play a recently renegade chapter with speeders and assault cannons and whirlwinds - use the SM codex! Hurr!

And remember, everything is legal in APOC, even Chaos marines with landspeeders and hordes of zombies.

dietrich wrote:If you want to play a recently renegade chapter with speeders and assault cannons and whirlwinds - use the SM codex! Hurr!

Considering how well the new Marine Codex does a number of old Legion armies, is there any reason to use the 'Chaos' Codex?

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

dietrich wrote:If you want to play a recently renegade chapter with speeders and assault cannons and whirlwinds - use the SM codex! Hurr!

Considering how well the new Marine Codex does a number of old Legion armies, is there any reason to use the 'Chaos' Codex?

BYE

Monstrous creatures and plague marines?

I can get MC's in other armies. Necrons will soon be different Plauge Marines.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:I can get MC's in other armies. Necrons will soon be different Plauge Marines.

BYE

Oh come now, you're not honestly telling me that you wouldn't prefer FNP instead of we will be back are you? They're the same thing! Also plague marines get defensive grenades and another point of toughness, they're way better then necron warriors .

No I love clunky rule systems that require me to lay models down and then roll for all of them at the start of nesxt turn, after measuring to make sure they're in range of someone like them, or a big robot from The Matrix that can heal them, or a guy with a glowing basketball, or a big glowing floating pyramid thingy.

FNP would take the fun out of it!

BYE

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:

Techboss wrote:Point being, if their were more than one good CSM fast attack choice, we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation.

What is the one "good" chaos fast attack choice? Besides the obvious spawn of course.

20-pt "Raptors" Assault Marines who can take Flamer / Melta / Plasma