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why can't people let this issue drop?

Because it's a big deal. If you don't like it, stay out of the thread--problem solved.

The mod team said to drop it in case you are unaware.



G

The mods said to drop the incident with Gareth. This thread is not explicitly about Gareth, in case you are unaware.

I give it another page until the same arguments come up.


When I play in a tournament, I strive to not make any mistakes, and if I do, i rectify it asap.

Casual play, its the same. I broke out my GK army and misused holocaust, I told my opponent and he said the 5 orks it killed were the least of his worry in CC with my GK terminators. I didn't use the power again the whole game.

It really depends on the mistake.

If I discover that it was a 1500 point tournament and I accidentally fielded a 1600 point list I might forfeit my prize.

If, on the other hand, I realize that a certain weapon is AP4 but I played it as AP3 the whole time I'd consider whether that made a big difference in my games and base my decision on that.

For me this raises another question that I have wrestled with on a few occasions. I know the rules very well, well enough that sometimes I get phone calls from people I play with asking rules questions. In my youth I was, lets say, over exuberant about correcting people on their rules mistakes (read: rules lawyer). Now-a-days I do my best to correct people in the friendliest way possible and by pointing it out in the rulebook/codex so there is no need to argue.

But here is the question, in a tournament setting, if you hear/see someone at another table doing something against the rules do you: A. stay out of it, its a tournament and knowing the rules is part of the event, or B. try to correct them again in a friendly manner, or C. Inform a judge. And if its a friend/teammate involved in the game, that can complicate things.

would you if it was someone you don't like?

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In our group, we police ourselves. If we hear a team member getting a rule wrong, we step in and vise versa. Last week we had a guy call us "cheesy" because we play with true LOS and that all templates are area terrain.

Green Blow Fly wrote:would you if it was someone you don't like?

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If it was an acceptable practice at the event then yes. My stance is that a superior knowledge of the rules is a responsibility not an advantage. I have often had to remind opponents of rules that led to a disadvantage on my part, if I win I want it to be because I played well or the dice liked me, not because my opponent doesnt have a full grasp of the 100's of rules that make up this game we play.

Unfortunately, in my history, the mistakes I make on the table are very rarely in my favor, so I can't think of a single time where an error on my part led to me winning anything :(

I can't remember the last time someone told me I was making a mistake that would have been to my disadvantage during a tournament.

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Green Blow Fly wrote:I can't remember the last time someone told me I was making a mistake that would have been to my disadvantage during a tournament.

Though they may tell you afterwards...

LOL!

Green Blow Fly wrote:I can't remember the last time someone told me I was making a mistake that would have been to my disadvantage during a tournament.

G

If people make a mistake in the rules I'll tell em, regardless. Mistake in tactics... Now that's another matter.

Here is the problem - you can't just "undo it" and give the prize to second place because it is quite possible that the person you just beat ends up in 5th or 6th - not to mention how much you are screwing all the other people you beat on the way.

I think that the way it should be handled is to fess up so the judges are aware and then make sure you play legit in the future.

Somnicide wrote:Here is the problem - you can't just "undo it" and give the prize to second place because it is quite possible that the person you just beat ends up in 5th or 6th - not to mention how much you are screwing all the other people you beat on the way.

I think that the way it should be handled is to fess up so the judges are aware and then make sure you play legit in the future.

It's preferable to give a prize to someone who definitely didn't earn it than to give a prize to someone who might not have earned it? No good sportsman would accept a prize that they knowingly did not earn fairly.

If the Olympics can adjust standings and medals to address cheating, why can't GW?

it has happened. So the precedent is there but I understand their position in this regard... Games should not be overturned based simply on hearsay especially when a large part of the complaints comes from those that apparently have an axe to grind.

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You'd have an axe to grind too if someone cheated you out of a victory at a tournament by playing the rules incorrectly, especially if you had spent a *lot* of time and money to attend the event, and made sure that you yourself were playing fairly. Just because people have an axe to grind doesn't make their complaints any less legitimate.

Tri wrote:A different option...

If i'd made a mistake and won gone home and realised ... i'd learn and not do it again ... go back to GW and say "i'm sorry i may have made a mistake and it won me the game" no ... there's 2 people playing every game its up to both of you to play the rules and pick up when the others done something wrong ... cheatings another matter though but nothing to do with OP

I agree with this. In a tournament setting, it's up to both players to know the rules. It's competitive play, after all and thus one of the only times I don't mind some "rules lawyering." Especially when one has paid tournament fees. When money and prizes are on the table, if there's anything questionable going on, ask your opponent to clarify. This in NO way means being a jerk about it, just simply asking, "I'm sorry, but can you please point out the rule for that?" No one should have to go buy a copy of every Codex or Army Book and in most cases stores have their own copy for public use, so ask your opponent. Mistakes happen, and your reputation shouldn't be tarnished by your not fessing up to it as your opponent should be graceful enough to admit it was a mutual mistake.

ZamboniKnight, while I agree that one should ask for clarification and rules citations, this is not always realistic due to extremely narrow time constraints. This problem was magnified in the 'Ard Boyz tournament due to the ludicrous 2.5 time limit on 2500 point games. The average number of turns in these games was 4 (or so I read), not sure what it was this year. I think I got 5 done in most of mine, though.

I do not, however, agree with what you say about reputation. Not admitting to a mistake which adversely affects your opponent, regardless of how your opponent reacts, is extremely bad sportsmanship. Just because they don't catch it or question it doesn't excuse it by any stretch of the imagination. That's kind of like saying cheating is OK as long as you aren't caught.

Danny Internets wrote:That's kind of like saying cheating is OK as long as you aren't caught.

Cheating's intentional though. This is more like cruising down the highway, letting your foot slowly press the gas a little more, then going, "Oh , it's a good thing there wasn't a cop administering a speed check out here." Doesn't mean that your speeding was permissable, but certainly no reason you should never have passengers in your car again. Chances are, your passengers weren't aware, the law wasn't aware, and it certainly wasn't intentional. The driver should simply be that much more alert to his driving status the next time they get behind the wheel. Mistakes happen all the time... watch pro sports and see how many times a ref gets ragged on per game.

Bad analogies aside, you can't prove intention, only infer it. Regardless, the rule was still broken and subsequently recognized by the offending player. It's extremely poor sportsmanship not to fess up to it, especially when prizes and widespread recognition are involved.

If you want your analogy to be more appropriate, the driver would perhaps need to smash into another driver. He then has the choice to either fess up to the speeding and take responsibility for the accident or pretend like he didn't do anything wrong and let the officials try and sort out the mess. Regardless if the driver meant to cause an accident, he still caused an accident and bears responsibility for the harm caused to the other person. The other person doesn't need to ask "oh, by the way, were you speeding when you slammed into me?" for the speeding driver to be responsible for his actions.

olympia wrote:The professional golfer J.P. Hayes recently reported himself for using an unapproved golf ball in a tournament. This has disqualified him from being on the PGA tour next year and his income will diminish accordingly. Hypothetical scenario: you win a prestigious GW tournament and take home valuable prizes. Once home you realize that you violated some important rules. What do you do?

Danny Internets wrote:Bad analogies aside, you can't prove intention, only infer it. Regardless, the rule was still broken and subsequently recognized by the offending player.

I understood the question to mean that the only one aware of the mistake was the one who commited the mistake. I also took it to mean that there was little or no physical evidence with which to trace the mistake (yes, a submitted army list would counter this, aside from that, everything is "in the moment"). I simply looked at it as a misinterpretation of the rules to which both players were unaware.

In the original scenario, I think the PGA disciplined the player appropriately. All former records remain untouched, his earnings are kept. However, the player is essentially banned from the next tour without pay. The PGA simply could have banned him from the game and pressured him to pay back his previous earnings. Given the player's honesty, I think they took appropriate action in respecting his honesty, yet maintaining a position that what he did was wrong.

In this sense, perhaps ban a player from the tournaments where the mistake was commited for one year.

Ritual suicide. It is the only way to preserve honor.

Or mob justice, cause really, nothing is better for the gaming environment than a lynching or an angry group of villagers with torches

i'd keep it. screw them if they made the mistake.

That's what you get for being a part of such a competitive environment.

Someone was suggesting a Magic-like tournament setting for 40k. The reason why Magic (and golf for that matter) has such strict tournament setting is because the rules are close to bullet-proof. Since that is the case there will always be a right or a wrong answer to a rules question. A Magic judge will always be able to contact a higher authority for clarification when needed and there will be consistency in the ruling wherever one is in the world (not perfect but close to it). Warhammer 40k is not like this. The rules are badly written (even so, its a good game), there is to much room for interpretation and GW does little or nothing to create a consistent environment. Two judges in different tournaments can easily give you different answers and even both might be wrong. A friend of mine was at Heat 1 this year and his unit of a Broadside and a shield drone was shot with a lascannon. The judge ruled that since only the Broadside was visible it would have to be removed. In the same heat Drones that dropped of a Devilfish where not a KP and Deffrollas could hit vehicles. In the new GT FAQ the opposite is true in both cases.

What this boils down to is that 40k is far away from meeting the standards that are required to have a strict judging policy. In other words, is it realistic to require players to follow the rules to the letter when not even the judges know themselves?