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The professional golfer J.P. Hayes recently reported himself for using an unapproved golf ball in a tournament. This has disqualified him from being on the PGA tour next year and his income will diminish accordingly. Hypothetical scenario: you win a prestigious GW tournament and take home valuable prizes. Once home you realize that you violated some important rules. What do you do?

Play honest, and start a sportsmanship resume
It's like a dating resume.... but with less play

Totally agree. Own up to it, and inform GW.

People will think a lot more of you than a person, and these things *always* come out...

It depends on when I realize it. If its during the game, I'll offer to backtrack and re-do it, and everything after it.

If its too late, I'll tell the guy, and chalk it up to a whoopsie... I so rarely play tournaments I don't have to worry about that aspect usually.

Beyond that for the most part I believe it happens on both sides between two honest players about the same, and it all averages out, much like strings of dice luck.

Another thread started by someone whining about cheating.

...and I thought this subject was covered by now.

I would keep the prizes but let people know I won by an accidental fluke.... no bragging rights but I am keeping the gak.

The trophy should go to who actually won it, but it does get a bit difficult if you have already opened your army box. I would contact organizer - if it isn't earned that trophy is just a reminder that you don't really deserve it not a testement to you ability.

As many rule bending douches that usually are involved in tournaments, I'd chalk it up to "oh well" and contiune on. This of course only applys to a true "honest" mistake and not actually cheating.

Breton wrote:It depends on when I realize it. If its during the game, I'll offer to backtrack and re-do it, and everything after it.

If its too late, I'll tell the guy, and chalk it up to a whoopsie... I so rarely play tournaments I don't have to worry about that aspect usually.

Beyond that for the most part I believe it happens on both sides between two honest players about the same, and it all averages out, much like strings of dice luck.

I'd agree w/ Breton on this as an issue but suffice it to say, I've only ever played in one tournament. However, I do find myself going 'oops' at least once during most games and I try to immediately let my opponent know of the issue or bring about some corrective action. A big case in point for me is when I play my CSM after having played my DE for a while. I usually forget I'm not using Raiders w/ my CSM's and have an oops with either moving, shooting or both. It doesn't look good when you move your LR 6" and fire all weapons...

Being me...it would bother me if I won by breaking a rule, even if by accident. I would give them a call and at least tell them about what happened.

Beerfart wrote:Another thread started by someone whining about cheating.

...and I thought this subject was covered by now.

This thread doesn't specifically mention anything about that incident or cheating and, for the sake of everyone, should stay that way.

I really wish everyone who cheated me out of first place at a tournament would come out and admit to it. Oh well... as they say... wish in one hand, crap in the other... see which one fills up faster.

G

Axyl wrote:Being me...it would bother me if I won by breaking a rule, even if by accident. I would give them a call and at least tell them about what happened.

Beerfart wrote:Another thread started by someone whining about cheating.

...and I thought this subject was covered by now.

This thread doesn't specifically mention anything about that incident or cheating and, for the sake of everyone, should stay that way.

no, not specifically....

obviously.

If it were me, I'd 'fess up.

Of course, I stopped playing exclusively for the win a while ago, and I stopped doing tournaments even longer ago. So I don't see this being a concern for me at all.

Now if we're talking about some other guy pulling shenanigains to get prizes that they wouldn't have otherwise won, I'd encourage him to "do the right thing".

I'd also encourage the organizers to seriously consider FloJo. She cheated her way to Olympic medals, which were then stripped and her name was removed from the records book.

I hate winning by using something not allowed. I'd fess up as I'd rather win because I deserved it, rather than win because no one noticed my mistake.

A different option...

If i'd made a mistake and won gone home and realised ... i'd learn and not do it again ... go back to GW and say "i'm sorry i may have made a mistake and it won me the game" no ... there's 2 people playing every game its up to both of you to play the rules and pick up when the others done something wrong ... cheatings another matter though but nothing to do with OP

It really comes down to Is it worth a 30 cent stamp to mail a quarter to someone. If its possible, fix it the best you can, but balance the effort to the magnitude of the error.

If we all decided to make it a policy of zero tolerance for mistakes I think the tournament scene would become very un-fun and I also think it would be impossible to enforce. But as a community at large should we all go back and attempt to rectify all known mistakes over a period of say two years... five years... or even ten years? How many people are completely honest? Is there a difference between a small mistake and a large mistake when it comes to mistakes in general? What about a case where both players made some mistakes during the course of one game? What if the mistake(s) happened early in the game and it was hard to judge the overall impact on the final outcome... should these games be re-played or the results voided? What if some of the mistakes happened during the middle of the game? Suppose one mistake by player A was not as big as the mistake by player B? What if a player made a mistake in a previous round then you discover they did not make the same mistake later on but they swear it was just an oversight?

Sometimes you know that a mistake had a big impact on the game and other times it is hard to say. I have played many tournaments and for me it seems there often mistakes that are not caught until afterwards. Does winning a prize make any difference? What if the mistake made no difference in your placing after all is said and done... should something still be done? People make mistakes for whatever reasons and people handle it differently. If I discover a mistake I chalk it up to experience so it won't happen again... this could be a mistake I made or that of an opponent. If I were to go back to the various TOs every time there was a mistake I think I would not be very popular at the stores where I play. To me this is part of gaming in tournaments. We can say it is just a game and try not to let it bother us but sometimes it is not so easy but there will always be more tournaments. Certainly I don't want a reputation as someone who is sloppy and makes a lot of mistakes for whatever reasons but I realize it does happen.

G

@GBF, I believe that is where Judges come in, to prevent and rectify mistakes.

But from a responsibility standpoint, how can it not be the player's responsibility to know their own Codex and then play by the rules? And then to accept the results of correcting any error?

JohnHwangDD wrote:@GBF, I believe that is where Judges come in, to prevent and rectify (all?) mistakes.

But from a responsibility standpoint, how can it not be the player's responsibility to know their own Codex and then play by the rules? And then to accept the results of correcting any error?

So are you saying it is indeed possible to create a tournament environment whereby no mistakes take place? If so I think you are an idealist. I don't mean that in a negative fashion. In fact I would love to hear how you would go about seeing that this policy is properly enforced. You must admit it is one thing to say it and another to make it happen successfully. For example, should players have to pass a test/exam to prove they know the rules sufficiently enough before they can play in a tournament? Should the judges have to take periodic tests/exams to be certified? How many judges should be on hand to implement this system at a tournament so that it works smoothly? If so what is the proper ratio of players to judges... 1/2, 1/3, 1/4? Should players be banned from playing in tournaments for some period of time if they make a certain number of recorded mistakes? Is it even practical?

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@GBF: In a tournament setting, with actual prizes each having cash value, it is not unreasonable to expect that each player knows their stuff and any errata / FAQs associated with their stuff. And then hold them to it.

Will mistakes be made? Yes. Perfection is difficult. That is why a Magic-like tiering of enforcement and penalty is desirable.

Why is that not a reasonable or desirable goal? Certainly, it's better than the kind of tolerance we have today.
____

As for "willful" mistakes (i.e. cheating), I think that nothing less than immediate expulsion and banning would suffice.

Can you cite some example of tournaments you have played in where you felt there were too many mistakes? How would address this issue if you were a TO?

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Can you cite some example of tournaments you have played in where you felt there were too many mistakes? How would address this issue if you were a TO?

G

There was some controversy in a recent tournament: different people made different claims about a judge's ruling. As a TO this would be straightforward to handle: contact all the judges and ask them if the ruling being claimed was indeed made by one of them. If this reveals that someone lied then GW could strip them of their title. There now, not so hard now was it?

I don't play Tournaments any more. Not for a few years. At this point, I much prefer Apocalypse play.

As a TO, I'd expect players to understand that the TO's ruling is final, and that Judges have wide discretion to restore game state to what it should have been.

I'd also place responsibility upon the player to know their army, and *require* them to alert the Judges when they think things are amiss. That is, I would take a lot of the player's discretion and collusion out of the game.

So players would have the basic responsibility to not make mistakes in the first place, along with the responsibility to notify a judge in the case of a mistake, and the requirement to accept the judged resolution / correction, whatever it might be.

If that resolution / correction means that a unit is auto-destroyed or a game is forfeit, so be it. If the resolution is that the player waited too long to question, then again, so be it.

One thing I'd do is require players to jointly sign the sheet for game result and scoring, because once that sheet is signed and submitted, that's it, the result stands.

...I'd expect players to understand that the TO's ruling is final, and that Judges have wide discretion to restore game state to what it should have been.

What if some players insisted that the judge does not know the rules well enough, makes mistakes on their calls and is inconsistent? I have seen this happen plenty of times.

I'd also place responsibility upon the player to know their army, and *require* them to alert the Judges when they think things are amiss. That is, I would take a lot of the player's discretion and collusion out of the game.

Don't tell me only what you would do as in this case, tell me how you would make it so. For instance would you ban beginners from playing in your events?

So players would have the basic responsibility to not make mistakes in the first place, along with the responsibility to notify a judge in the case of a mistake, and the requirement to accept the judged resolution / correction, whatever it might be.

How would you ensure that players don't make any mistakes? Is this really possible or just a wish? Is it possible to expect that every player is intimately familiar with the rules for all armies? If I read you right you first expect a player not to make any mistakes, but if they do then the other player must catch it and notify a judge. Should a judge be called over to a table every time a mistake occurs? What about rules that a lot of people don't agree upon... how would would you handle these? Are you prepared to create a large FAQ for your events that covers all the bases?

If that resolution / correction means that a unit is auto-destroyed or a game is forfeit, so be it. If the resolution is that the player waited too long to question, then again, so be it.

What if as a results of these decisions your attendance at these events dropped down to say only two to four players? Who you still insist upon this policy?

You say you have not played in a tournament for several years now and to be completely honest your comments come across as an armchair general. I really don't mean that in a negative fashion by any means so please do not take offense.

G

One thing I'd do is require players to jointly sign the sheet for game result and scoring, because once that sheet is signed and submitted, that's it, the result stands.

Not to be mean but isn't it funny that in the title of this thread the word 'mistake' is incorrectly spelled? That says it all really. It would be very nice though to be perfect, even if no one liked us as a result.



G

@GBF, insisting on perfection is not possible, because the implementation is still human. That said, I'd adapt the Magic Tournament rules, posted on the WotC website.

1. Fortunately, this is an easy thing to solve. Player can appeal from Judge to TO. TO's word is final. Arguing with the TO results in immediate and automatic expulsion, with forfeiture of any prizes awarded or eligible.

2. This is simply part of the tournament rules. There's specific nothing to do. Play by the rules, alert Judge if something seems wierd. It's not a difficult concept. Beginners can always play, as everybody starts somewhere. But as in Magic, they'll get schooled pretty quick by both the Judges and their Opponents.

3a. I expect players to know *their* army, and accept full responsibility for playing that army correctly. If they can't do so, then the Judge will adjudicate mistakes.

3b. If the mistake isn't obviously fixable (moved 7" instead of 6" allowed), then yes, I'd expect a Judge to be called at the Tournament level. Look at PGA golf. Those guys call Judges all the time when things are a little out of sorts.

3c. If people can't agree, then that is what the Judge is for. If it reaches the point that the TO is involved, a blanket ruling can be made for that tournament. Supposedly, Adepticon has already done the work of creating a FAQ, so I don't have to do that. I can be like GW and simply reference it.

4. Given that GW doesn't do enforcement today, and we're in pure hypothetical land, I don't have to worry or care. Equally hypothetically, we would enter a new golden age with overflow attendance at every event. Players who play their army correctly would never be penalized, so they have nothing to worry about. Players who game the system or stretch the rules would be removed.

I haven't played Tournaments because I don't have the desire to play in the types of Tournaments that are currently played. If the Tournament changed, I'd reconsider.

To infer or suggest that I lack the ability compete at the Tournament level is a little strange. I can pilot a hardcore WAAC list to victory just as well as the next guy. I've even still got my "Best General" award gathering dust in a storage box, unless the wife tossed it...

Whether this is armchair quarterbacking the GW TOs or not, matters little as I'm not signing up to be TO anytime soon. You asked the question, I gave you my best answer, which is to do things more-or-less similarly to Magic. Hopefully, it's at least helpful to understand what I'm thinking here.

Oh yeah, no offense intended and none taken.

I didn't mean to imply you are not capable of doing well in a tournament setting... Your original response to my questions left me with the impression that you are out of touch to a degree with the typical tournament environment. There are typically over 100 people playing at GTs these days... Some are very competitive and know the rules well while others are there to just have a good time. I would hate to see a GT become even more competitive by bringing it in line with an event that is purely competitive such as the Ard Boys. I do think to a degree that the GTs could be improved and to be honest I have noticed that Chris often solicits suggestions from those that attend GW events. In a nut shell I just don't think it is possible to expect everyone who plays to know all the rules and have the ability to recognize any mistake no matter how large or small has occurred. I also don't think it is possible to expect everyone who plays to be completely honest and/or 100% free of error. That is just my opinionso please take it with a grain of salt.

G

Okay I see now where you are going with this... You are beating the proverbial dead horse. In the sake of interest can you please be so kind as to cite another example?

G

olympia wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Can you cite some example of tournaments you have played in where you felt there were too many mistakes? How would address this issue if you were a TO?

G

There was some controversy in a recent tournament: different people made different claims about a judge's ruling. As a TO this would be straightforward to handle: contact all the judges and ask them if the ruling being claimed was indeed made by one of them. If this reveals that someone lied then GW could strip them of their title. There now, not so hard now was it?

Exactly, and I totally agree.

Also, I don't see so much difference between a superregional 50+ event and a official 100+ GT. Aside from the increased entry fee and extra hotel night.

The difference is that I would like to see a push when prizes (i.e. money) are on the line. Once there is a value to be played for, then things are different.

If players come out just for fun, it's not likely they'll be at the top tables, where mistakes can mean winning or losing a $100+ prize. They probably won't catch things and probably nobody would care.

But players gunning for prizes? That's a whole different kettle of fish. There, the players, Judges and TO are *all* obligated to watch for mistakes and to correct them.

you know this year I have been focusing on playing in local tournaments rather than the big events and I am having a lot of fun. I have found that I tend to place higher when I go into it with a 'just have fun and make sure all my opponents have a good time' attitude rather than a win at all costs mentality. It can be easy to fall into the WAAC attitude if you tend to be competitive, such as myself, so it takes somewhat of a concentrated effort to just relax. If we could change the emphasis on everyone having a good time versus walking away with the top spot then I reckon this would solve most problems involving mistakes. I consider this to be a holistic approach to gaming in general versus simply treating the symptom. I ran an independent GT last month with some good friends, this was our approach, and we got a lot of positive feedback. I would rather have ten players show up that all have a great time as opposed to providing 50+ competitive players with the opportunity to see who has the biggest 40k weiner. That is just me though.

G