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Orkimedes wrote:Anyone who plays a game of army men to "only win" is a complete loser. If that is a person's enjoyment in life, they are a loser. I mean, like i said, this is essentially army men with rules. We have a couple of people like this at my LGS and everyone feels the same about them. I get so frustrated hearing about this stuff. People, we are playing a tabletop game here. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter who wins or loses....seriously. People like this should just find another hobby, or perhaps a woman friend.

I'm not sayin....I'm just sayin...

Let the flames begin!!!!

"Army men with rules" is how the NWO keeps the sado-masochistic combo groups from breeding.

Yeah at my FLGS we have this kid who is the biggest rules lawyering jerk (using nice words but feel free to adult it up) who no one will play unless they do it accidentally. And many a time when i have played against him in Apoc games he slows every body down by not understanding some little rule that his interpretation has it in his favor. Now I am not known for being the most knowledgable rules guy I do this for modeling and painting and people know that, so most of the time if i can point it out i do so because otherwise i don't care and want to have fun which is what I can't understand out of other people. But then again it could be that when I play Apoc games I bring my armored company and just blow up everyones front lines with my first salvo but oh well such is life.

Orkimedes wrote:Anyone who plays a game of army men to "only win" is a complete loser. If that is a person's enjoyment in life, they are a loser. I mean, like i said, this is essentially army men with rules. We have a couple of people like this at my LGS and everyone feels the same about them. I get so frustrated hearing about this stuff. People, we are playing a tabletop game here. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter who wins or loses....seriously. People like this should just find another hobby, or perhaps a woman friend.

I'm not sayin....I'm just sayin...

Let the flames begin!!!!

Agreed.

On the topic though: I played someone like that who had a "powergaming" list with his bajillion PD Tzeetch force on my 3rd game (ever). Hearing him rant about his inherent superiority made me want to slap the guy.

I'll contend that there are annoying sorts like that in every hobby. Unfortunately, a larger proportion of the wargaming niche hobby seems to either borderline or embrace this competitive mindset. Heavens know what said gamers can do if they applied their minds to something slightly more constructive.

For many people like Ark describes, the only real solution is "Time". Time to age and mature. Time to find out what is really important, and what makes the game truly fun. There's no reason at all, as adults, two people can't play together to make the game fun for BOTH players. In my opinion, as your opponent, it is my responsiblity to make the game fun for BOTH of us. In a perfect world, both players would strive for that, and every single game you'd play would be fun - win or lose.

Ark - if the guy really is a 'good friend', a heart-to-heart talk with him is in order. Don't do it in front of others - he'll likely get far more defensive about it if he feels ganged-up on. Tell him - as a friend - the REAL point of the game is to have fun. If he can only have fun when he wins - he needs to re-evaluate his priorities. If you've already talked to him about this - and if he truly is a 'good friend' - then there's no harm in talking to him again. Let him know with no uncertain terms why you won't play with him anymore. If you guys are 'good friends', this SHOULD have an impact on him - though it may take time to 'sink in'.

I used to be exactly like the your friend that you describe, a couple decades and many games ago. It took a friendly, gentle chat from a good friend of mine to 'wake me up'. I find that now, I enjoy gaming 100x more now than I ever did when I was so bent on destroying my opponent. Of course I still strive to win, but now it's more a matter of how I handle and accept losing.

As for the various "beat the crap out of him" comments... meh. Anonymous internet tough-guys pounding their chests is all that is. Violence in a hobby like this should be reserved for the tabletop. When people start actually physically assaulting each other over a silly game - it's time for those people to look for other hobbies, in my opinion.

Just my 2 coppers, tho.

Ark - if the guy really is a 'good friend', a heart-to-heart talk with him is in order. Don't do it in front of others - he'll likely get far more defensive about it if he feels ganged-up on. Tell him - as a friend - the REAL point of the game is to have fun. If he can only have fun when he wins - he needs to re-evaluate his priorities.

I don't understand this whole philosophy of "I have fun playing the game this way and if you don't then you're doing it wrong." Why not just let him be highly competitive? He clearly seems to be enjoying playing 40k this way, otherwise he wouldn't to show up for games. Furthermore, other people clearly enjoy playing him because they continue to do so.

Why do you feel the need to coerce him into changing?

Some like 40k because it, to some degree, involves matching wits and intelligence against opponents.
Some like 40k because it's a great beer & pretzels game.
Some like 40k because the models are cool.
Some like 40k because the background is interesting.
Some like 40k because it's an excuse for adults to go "pew pew pew" every time their army men get to fire lasers at each other.

There is no "correct" way to enjoy the game. Live and let live.

I'll contend that there are annoying sorts like that in every hobby. Unfortunately, a larger proportion of the wargaming niche hobby seems to either borderline or embrace this competitive mindset. Heavens know what said gamers can do if they applied their minds to something slightly more constructive.

They can play Counterstrike, WoW, and Halo. And ruin all three.

Well, if it was one of my friends who was acting like this, I would set up the night as follows...

1. Before starting the afternoon, I would find a 3rd friend.

2. Drink some beers (or your drink of choice)

3. Go to a *nice* strip club and oogle at the ladies

4. Drink more beers

5. Now go to where ever you play 40k (hopefully you're not *too* intoxicated to play)


If your friend *still* "plays only to win", then sadly, he is a lost cause. You must move :( But hopefully he is not a complete dolt and gets the picture.

Oh fyi, the 3rd friend doesn't drink, he's the driver! Safety first!


PS. If you are under the legal age for such activities, replace "beer" with "soda" and "strip club" with "britney spears concert" (or whatever the kids are into nowadays).

Hi .
I can sympathise with the OP.
I am fortunate that at my FLGS gaming group we play a wide variety of TTGs.
Any one taking WH-40k too seriuosly ,(playing ONLY to win at all costs,) get invited to play 'proper wargames ' with the vet gamers.
And they play games that ARE developed for ballanced competative play.
And they loose alot , generaly takes about 50 to 60 games to get close to a win.
And then return to the 40k-WH games alittle wiser, and tend to appreciate these game for what they are!

Unfortunatley far to many gamers belive 40k is a wargame suitable for ballanced competative play, and winning a game proves something important... :S

TTFN
Lanrak.

There is a bit of a distinction in the OP that I think some people are missing here (and miss a lot on this forum).

It seems the guy is not so much unpleasant because he brings a power list, or is serious about doing his best to win. It is that he is a tool, and is not above using a double standard (fuzzy measuring for him, laser precision for you) at best or outright cheating at worst to win, and pitches a huge fit when he loses. These two things, playing seriously to win and being a tool, do NOT necessarily go hand in hand!

A serious, tough competitor who is fair can be great fun to play against! There is no reason why two people can not play seriously to win and not have a great time. The key is that they are polite and don't pitch a fit when things don't go their way (other than some good natured cursing and dice hurling as the situation warrents ) and they play by the rules.

Conversely, I have played very miserable games with people who played "just for fun". Either they just sort of half heartedly shuffle peices around the table, making you wonder why they even bothered showing up (and making you feel guilty every time you kill a model) or they are so loose with the rules you have no idea whether you are playing a war game or "let's play make believe".
The latter is why we never invite my sister to play games when the family gets together. She can't help but cheat for asinine reasons, and when asked not to she replies with "it's just a game!" Apparently to her, dealing everyone one card, then having them turn it over with the winner having the highest card is as good as poker.

So please, remember that competition is good! Being a prick and cheating, whining and crying when things don't go your way, and in general not playing like a gentleman (or good sport, what have you) is bad. They are not the same thing!

Sincity wrote:
If you feel you cannot compete inside the bounds of the game and cannot resist your primal instincts , then you should sell your toy solders and buy Barbie Dolls.

Sincity

You sir, have no clue. The competitive sport of Barbie is one of the bloodiest full contact events you'll ever see. You've not seen terror until you've seen two six year old girls go at it over Barbie. Oh the humanity!

I haven't really run into this problem yet, as I am a highly competetive person myself. I bring several lists with me when I go to FLGS to play. The regular one I use is my friendly list, and then if I run into somebody who likes to powergame or rule lawyer, I run my hard list. The person on duty in the store at the time is the refferee and you have to accept his rulings. Its one of the rules of the store and it really helps in situations where interpretations differ.

But the problem with high level of competetiveness is that it generally costs more money than your fluff lists and you eventually run into situations where people won't play you.

Sincity wrote:

Ark wrote:[
Lol. I am glad Shuma has graced this post .

Thanks guys,
I'll be sure to resort to violence if diplomacy fails.

Blood for the Blood God!

Be aware , people that play to win generally live there lives by that motto also. If this persons playing has annoyed you the point of upping the stakes ( which most likely means he is kicking your fluffer lists A$$) you should consider that this person is likely capable of conflict resolution to an acceptable level. Should you get lucky and score a win , visa fisticuffs , an escalation of combat is not an impossibility. Or to spell it out for you , you could get your A$$ shot off.

If you feel you need to get violent over a GAME , maybe , you should get into another hobby .
If you feel you cannot compete inside the bounds of the game and cannot resist your primal instincts , then you should sell your toy solders and buy Barbie Dolls.

Sincity

I might be fairly new here, but I'm betting there was a good deal of comedic sarcasm by the OP. Something tells me he won't be literally kicking his friend's ass anytime soon.

Some like 40k because it's an excuse for adults to go "pew pew pew" every time their army men get to fire lasers at each other.

This is probably the main reason I play 40K.

I'm a beginner, but I have a strong grasp of the game. I play to have fun. If I win or loose, so be it, I probably still will have fun.
But I can't help whimpering under my breath when I see 1500 points of Nids lined up against my Guard.

GreyFox555 wrote:

Some like 40k because it's an excuse for adults to go "pew pew pew" every time their army men get to fire lasers at each other.

This is probably the main reason I play 40K.

I'm a beginner, but I have a strong grasp of the game. I play to have fun. If I win or loose, so be it, I probably still will have fun.
But I can't help whimpering under my breath when I see 1500 points of Nids lined up against my Guard.

And i cant help feel hungry when i see my nids eat IG lol

Have your troops shoot your own troops.
Say all your troops are changing sides and are now on his side.
Or have them rout right from the start.
Alright the rules prob don't actually let you do that...

Playing only to win, unless against an opponent who feels the same way, is not much fun for either side.

I prefer to take a themed army, warts and all, and see what havoc I can wreak with the bugger. Sure, I fully intend to win every game I play, but as long as both my opponent and I gave a good showing, the end result isn't all that important. I get my kicks from actually playing the game rather than just winning it. Though the warm glow of smug 'nyeh nyeh's' when you thrash your opponent is enjoyable!

But to design your list for maximum efficiency, and to back it up with inane Rules Lawyering all detracts from my enjoyment. I can get my turn over and done with in 15 minutes easy, shorter if I really concentrate, unless of course there are a number of fairly complicated combats being conducted. My opponents turns are usually similarly paced. To slow this down with petty rules quibbling, rather than where we are not quite sure how to proceed (we've played multiple incarnations and we often get confused!) is not good gaming!

Danny Internets wrote:
I don't understand this whole philosophy of "I have fun playing the game this way and if you don't then you're doing it wrong." Why not just let him be highly competitive? He clearly seems to be enjoying playing 40k this way, otherwise he wouldn't to show up for games. Furthermore, other people clearly enjoy playing him because they continue to do so.

Why do you feel the need to coerce him into changing?

Some like 40k because it, to some degree, involves matching wits and intelligence against opponents.
Some like 40k because it's a great beer & pretzels game.
Some like 40k because the models are cool.
Some like 40k because the background is interesting.
Some like 40k because it's an excuse for adults to go "pew pew pew" every time their army men get to fire lasers at each other.

There is no "correct" way to enjoy the game. Live and let live.

Sorry, while I respect your opinion, I simply can not agree.

It's pretty simple, really - this is a 'hobby', where both people who come to play a game, usually do so out of a desire to be entertained and enjoy the process.

Two players meet up in order to have fun and enjoy this 'hobby', and if one can only enjoy it when he wins - he's setting himself up for failure and disappointment, because he will eventually lose. If the person in question is also making the game unenjoyable for his opponent, he's being disrespectful in my opinion. And when he loses - he's going to be even more disappointed and unhappy.

If there's a person like this who is a 'good friend' that the OP has decided to quit playing - there's usually room for compromise and discussion. With your attitude, the OP should just forget about it, not play the guy, and move on, without making at least some attempt to remedy the situation. For some, I guess that would be good enough. But it's not about 'coercing' someone into doing something. If the person just isn't acceptable to play with, and they really are 'good friends', there's nothing wrong with telling the other person why they aren't being asked to play anymore, and seeing if there's a way around it.

I guess I just think it's better to at least try to work something out rather than giving-up completely and shrugging it off as "difference in gamer philosophy". Of course, after a few failed attempts, it would likely become evident that the person in question simply doesn't "jive" with the OP's playstyle, and at that point it might be best to move on, while hopefully preserving the friendship.

While there may be no set-in-stone 'correct' way to play a game - I do firmly believe that there are incorrect ways to play the game.

Though that's just my 2 coppers.

Mort,

This guy is clearly a regular part of the OP's gaming group. He's showing up and people are playing him. It's safe to assume that he's having fun because he continues to show up and play. Similarly, it's safe to assume others are having fun playing against him because they continue to do so. You could argue that those who play him are an annoying bunch of masochists who like to voluntarily waste hours of their own time and then bitch about it later, but then these people have problems that go above and beyond that of the "offending" player.

With regards to the powergamer, nobody wins all the time. I'm sure he's lost plenty of times (I'm not sure why you assume he never has). He's experienced the "failure and disappointment" that you describe, but he keeps playing regardless. I think you give him less credit than he deserves.

If there's a person like this who is a 'good friend' that the OP has decided to quit playing - there's usually room for compromise and discussion. With your attitude, the OP should just forget about it, not play the guy, and move on, without making at least some attempt to remedy the situation. For some, I guess that would be good enough. But it's not about 'coercing' someone into doing something. If the person just isn't acceptable to play with, and they really are 'good friends', there's nothing wrong with telling the other person why they aren't being asked to play anymore, and seeing if there's a way around it.

There's nothing wrong with discussion, but the general attitude taken by the OP, you, and many others is that this person is entirely in the wrong and that you all have some kind of moral obligation to change his behavior. Back in reality, he simply has a different style of playing that's incompatible with your own (or the OP's). Other people clearly enjoy playing him, so he can't be all bad.

This topic is really just another one of those threads where all of the people on Dakka who don't like competitive play get together and bash on those who do. This should be clear just by the number of people who have suggested physical violence as a "solution" to the "problem."

Danny Internets wrote:Mort,

This guy is clearly a regular part of the OP's gaming group. He's showing up and people are playing him. It's safe to assume that he's having fun because he continues to show up and play. Similarly, it's safe to assume others are having fun playing because they continue to do so. You could argue that those who play him are an annoying bunch of masochists who like to voluntarily waste hours of their own time and then bitch about it later, but these people have problems that go above and beyond that of the "offending" player.

He's clearly part of a regular gaming group, showing up, and people are still enjoying playing him? Where do you get that impression from? I just re-read the OP again, and I don't get that impression. In fact, the OP mentions that "we" (meaning the OP and others in his group) pressed this particular player on his gaming philosophy. I get the feeling that it's not just the OP that has an issue with this player, but perhaps is the only one willing to discuss it with other players on this forum, especially if the player in question is really 'cramping up the LGS'.

The OP isn't what you describe - a "masochist who likes to voluntaryily waste hours of their (his) time", because he's quit playing this person. Removing himself from a bad situation is a good thing.

Danny Internets wrote:With regards to the powergamer, nobody wins all the time. I'm sure he's lost plenty of times (I'm not sure why you assume he never has). He's experienced the "failure and disappointment" that you describe, but he keeps playing regardless. I think you give him less credit than he deserves.

There's a serious difference between "playing to win", and "playing to win at all costs" - especially when part of that 'cost' is your opponent's enjoyment of the game. Maybe you're giving the guy more credit than he deserves?

Danny Internets wrote:There's nothing wrong with discussion, but the general attitude taken by the OP, you, and many others is that this person is entirely in the wrong and that you all some kind of moral obligation to change his behavior. Back in reality, he simply has a different style of playing that's incompatible with your own (or the OP's). Other people clearly enjoy playing him, so he can't be all bad.

I don't think anyone has said that the player has any sort of 'obligation' to change his playstyle. He has every right in the world to play the game how he wants - but hopefully he's not going to be too surprised when people start refusing to play with him - even good friends, like the OP.

Danny Internets wrote:
This topic is really just another one of those threads where all of the people on Dakka who don't like competitive play get together and bash on those who do. This should be clear just by the number of people who have suggested physical violence as a "solution" to the "problem."

My impression is that Ark was looking for advice on how to approach a good friend who has become more and more insufferable at the gaming table, to himself and others. If Ark really considers this guy a 'good friend', I encourage him to chat with him, even if he has already done so in the past.

I mean, if one of my 'good friends' suddenly stopped playing with me - I'd sure want to know why, and I'd hope that he/she would talk to me about it. Granted, what they tell me may not be enough to get me to 'change my ways' - but that's my decision to make. However, it might affect my outlook on the hobby and how I present myself to others, especially those who I consider 'good friends'.

As for the physical threats - I definitely don't agree with that mindset. It's cheaper, quicker, less painful, and a lot less likely to break the law to just avoid the person in the future, than to 'throw down' with the guy. I mean, could you imagine adults trying to explain Assault charges to the police, over a toy-soldier game? (And I don't mean 40K Assault charges, either! ) It sounds like something that would end-up on an episode of "COPS", or "America's Dumbest Criminals" or something.

Anyway - it all boils down to a matter of opinion, really, and I appreciate those counter to my own. I definitely appreciate the discussion! This is something that I've seen come up in every LGS I've frequented, and it's interesting to see the different ways folks approach it and handle it.

-Mort

He's clearly part of a regular gaming group, showing up, and people are still enjoying playing him? Where do you get that impression from?

Well he apparently is a "good friend" of someone whom he plays frequently enough to come here and complain about his pattern of behavior. And they apparently have mutual friends who play 40k and sit around talking about it. And the OP says he's "cramping up the LGS" with respect to the way he plays the game, which probably means people are playing him...or do you think he's playing against himself?

And if you read carefully you'll see that I never said the OP was a masochist, for the reason you describe.

There's a serious difference between "playing to win", and "playing to win at all costs" - especially when part of that 'cost' is your opponent's enjoyment of the game. Maybe you're giving the guy more credit than he deserves?

If other people aren't enjoying the game then why are they playing him? You seem to be dodging this question.

I've only just got back into 40k, and have few opponents. I do know their play-styles, though.
Most are similar to me - want to have fun, a good, hard fight, by the rules (but without lawyering it all the time), and a few beers after. We enjoy the fluff, and read up on Codices to make a list worth playing (i.e. has a chance of winning, and will be fun/interesting).
Some are a lot looser, pick the models they like the look of and ask what dice to roll all the time.
A couple are "Winners" (or at least wanna-be's!). They spend hours poring over codices, rule books and tactics forums. They play TO THE RULES, because that's how their lists work - they don't want to cheat you, they want to BEAT you!

I think we all agree that a fair win is more fun than a stolen win. Its not about a league table. No-one can brag about a win if we all mention that they "misread" their rules all the time. Bragging about a win "even though I didn't use my special rules, and let you get away with a couple of things" is MUCH more satisfying

I enjoy playing against all of these, but partly because they are already friends. The loose " less rules, more fun" guys allow me to let my hair down, chill, and show off my superior knowledge
The "Win-Win-Win" guys, well, that's how they roll. It can be a challenge to face them, with their power-lists and fine-tuned tactics. It starts to be more similar to chess, only with more dice, and more shouting "Waaagh! Da boyz charge headlong into your lines!" and "For the Emperor! Die Xeno Scum! Dakka-Dakka-Dakka!"
Yes, sometimes I'm in a mood for one type of game, but get the other opponent. :(
Playing against a "loose" foe when you're psyched up for a head-to-head challenge with your power-list and new tactics can be less fun than turning up for a loose game and facing Mr I-Play-To-Win, sometimes.

As I say, I'm still new, but the plan is to play quite a few games, and we will be assessing our performance, tweaking our lists and tactics, and jeering at the panzees when I krump 'em up!
Of course we want to win - some more than others. It's more about the rest of the personality than just their competitiveness (although it can get out of hand, and you have to say "C'mon, mate. you're being an ass").

I do have a game scheduled vs a guy who I've not played before - a vet, who I've known a while, but not too closely. Will have to wait n see how I enjoy his style of play ...
(Dunno if Marlow reads this. HI if ya do! )

You dont have to play someone who is a WAAC (Win at all costs) type person. Usually if the players at a LGS ostracize him from games, he will get the message.

Now in a tournament I expect that kind of player and nothing else because everyone at a tournament wants to win just varies in how far they will go to win.

If its a friendly game environment just you and your group of friends just refuse to play the dude.

I agree don't play him till he changes how he plays. I recently played a game of =][=munda, I got smashed but had a brilliant time and it was very narrative. Play to win but not at all costs.

Danny Internets wrote:

Ark - if the guy really is a 'good friend', a heart-to-heart talk with him is in order. Don't do it in front of others - he'll likely get far more defensive about it if he feels ganged-up on. Tell him - as a friend - the REAL point of the game is to have fun. If he can only have fun when he wins - he needs to re-evaluate his priorities.

I don't understand this whole philosophy of "I have fun playing the game this way and if you don't then you're doing it wrong." Why not just let him be highly competitive? He clearly seems to be enjoying playing 40k this way, otherwise he wouldn't to show up for games. Furthermore, other people clearly enjoy playing him because they continue to do so.

Why do you feel the need to coerce him into changing?

Some like 40k because it, to some degree, involves matching wits and intelligence against opponents.
Some like 40k because it's a great beer & pretzels game.
Some like 40k because the models are cool.
Some like 40k because the background is interesting.
Some like 40k because it's an excuse for adults to go "pew pew pew" every time their army men get to fire lasers at each other.

There is no "correct" way to enjoy the game. Live and let live.

There is a correct way to enjoy the game. and if your opponent doesn't see it the same way, then there is nothing wrong with telling him that you don't like how he plays and that you'd prefer to play dodge ball on the freeway than play them. That said, it really matters how much a person can put up with for those that play differently..

Danny Internets wrote:
Some like 40k because it, to some degree, involves matching wits and intelligence against opponents.
Some like 40k because it's a great beer & pretzels game.
Some like 40k because the models are cool.
Some like 40k because the background is interesting.
Some like 40k because it's an excuse for adults to go "pew pew pew" every time their army men get to fire lasers at each other.

There is no "correct" way to enjoy the game. Live and let live.

or all of the above... cept the last one. nope, no way any of us go "pew pew pew" when we shoot at each other... no way no how.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Find your biggest, spikiest and heaviest model. Take it in your hand, and then hit him with it until the stupid falls out

Siggd

pew pew pew

BoxANT wrote:Well, if it was one of my friends who was acting like this, I would set up the night as follows...

1. Before starting the afternoon, I would find a 3rd friend.

2. Drink some beers (or your drink of choice)

3. Go to a *nice* strip club and oogle at the ladies

4. Drink more beers

5. Now go to where ever you play 40k (hopefully you're not *too* intoxicated to play)


If your friend *still* "plays only to win", then sadly, he is a lost cause. You must move :( But hopefully he is not a complete dolt and gets the picture.

Oh fyi, the 3rd friend doesn't drink, he's the driver! Safety first!


PS. If you are under the legal age for such activities, replace "beer" with "soda" and "strip club" with "britney spears concert" (or whatever the kids are into nowadays).

Hehehehehee, sounds like my Baltimore GT...................................

I agree that you just shouldn't play him.

We had one kid at our local shop whose idea of Speed Freeks was a couple of Buggies for Troops, a Trukk stuffed with Nobz and a Warboss, looted Basilisk and, for some reason, a small Squiggoth. He'd pick over the rules, slowing up the game and generally be a pain in the arse. We stopped playing against him, and he stopped coming. Is it harsh? I suppose in some ways, yes. But then, this game is meant to be social, so why be anti-social when playing it?

Will you stop coming if we stop playing wit you

Now thats a dirty question if I ever heard it! DIRTY FITZ! IN YOUR BED! ONE YOUR RUG!

And I probably would. No point going if I can't get a game.

Oh, by the way skip, Vets Night is back on tomorrow.

Indeed it is, good work scaring all the parents off staffers...