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I play both CSM and Orks and for what it's worth, I kick butt much faster with Orks. Lash helps a lot for the CSMs, but I don't think it makes up for pure number of attacks that the Orks can dish out.

Thalor

Xav wrote:The title says best cc not best cc+shooting, its nids.

1st - off read what he asked for take note of this line:

"Unless it's like... orks and somehow might be amazing at both, I Don't know how things are in this edition"

2nd- Nidz is your opinion and I gave mine.

Hive tyrant vs warboss.

Xav wrote:Hive tyrant vs warboss.

whats your point?


They have almost the same stats assuming the boss is on a bike with PK and Attack squig (standard setup) and the tyrant has 2 sets of scything talons. Only the Warboss is STR 10 wounds on 2+ and Tyrant is STR 6 and wounds on 4+ So it can go either way. Warboss has slight advantage I think

Another problem is that the boss is running around in a unit while the tyrant is usually all alone and half the time already has wound from shooting...so in most cases he'd lose


You have to give better examples as to wy Nidz are the best.....Tyrant is one model and is hardly a CC god. A daemon prince with warptime can pwn a hive tyrant. that does not make chaos marines the best CC army.

Nids are built for CC, orks are built for a good old shooty, cc army, i just think CC wise nids are supieror.

Ork's, currently, are far and away the best CC army.

It's not their base stats that make them good, or their wargear or their units its a combination of those facets and the facts that they are 6 points a model.

Think about it this way, for 1100 points you can take 5 mobz of boyz that are 30 strong. Each mob has a nob with a PK and Bosspole. That is 150 boyz wih either shootas or sluggas or a combo of the two from mob to mob.

For 1490 points you could have a Big Mek with KFF, a Big Mek with a Forcefield, a mob of 14 Lootas and the aforementioned 150 boyz. Total that is 166 models and would a lot of people pause for thought it that were arrayed against them.

Inflitrating genesteales with broodlord, and nidzilla.

Xav wrote:Nids are built for CC, orks are built for a good old shooty, cc army, i just think CC wise nids are supieror.

Considering the current Codex's, Tyranids are out priced for their abilities compared to Ork's.

If you created a pure CC Ork army, currently, it'd be better than Tyranids.

Xav wrote:Nids are built for CC, orks are built for a good old shooty, cc army, i just think CC wise nids are supieror.

ahhh finally you used the proper wording "I think"

although I have to disagree:

Both Armies can do either Pure CC, Pure Shooty, or a mix

My opinion is that Orks Excel at all three of these types over Tyranids.

In the end your dealing with a 5th vs a 4th edition Codex. When/If Tyranids get a new book in 5th we can talk about who is better on a more even standing.

True, but nids have some nifty close combat builds, and can be horde or nidzilla.

Xav wrote:True, but nids have some nifty close combat builds, and can be horde or nidzilla.

Nifty as in what? aside from outflanking Geanstealers there is really nothing nifty about nids CC.

Nid horde is gone in 5th. nomore outnumber in Combat. its all about the amount of wounds you can do....and gaunts die in droves so they will lose combat. Not to mention your basic gaunt is 5 points Your basic ork is 6 points Orks>Gaunt

Nidzilla is still good and is about the only type of tyranid lists you see. but it is far from the best CC compaired to orks.

again Orks>Nidzilla

Bloodcrusher spam with Fateweaver and Soulgrinders beats both Zilla nidz and nob bikers/green tide in HtH superiority.

If the bloodcrushers roll good for deepstrike scatter that is. Nid horde hasnt died in 5th edition, the vast amount of cover saves, has helped it a great deal.

A HtH Tyrant kills a Warboss 7 out of 10 fights because of Implant attack and 4 attacks at WS 6 and S 6. Warboss will lose 1 attack and is at WS 5. Higher Initative also helps. \

Deamons with a Bloodcrusher/Fateweaver build dismantle orks in HtH. Its combat resolution that kills more ork armies than any other shooting. Beserkers can kill a squad of orks, the same with Harlies, Genestealers, bloodletters. You can take out 1/2 a squad of orks on the charge with little damage in return in the form of the nob and the rest of the squad crumbles in combat rez. Orks only got numbers and numbers mean nothing in 5th. 4th edition they were perhaps the best HtH army.

Most hard hitting Deamon Units are the Bloodcrushers, Deamonprinces, Soul Grinders, and Greater Deamon. Those mentioned can take a hit along with dish out a hit. Deamons get an invunerable save unlike Nids who simply have to take it. A tooled out Nid army for HtH can beat Deamons but its a bloody fight.

I don't think stealers would be able to reliably slash through Orks fast enough. If you took ten... it's something like 30 attacks, 20 hits, 3 rends, 8 or so normal wounds, so maybe you'd kill about 10 of them on the charge. They would they get(sluggas).....57 attacks back, 23 hits, 8 wounds and 4 killed(if they took extended carapace). 4 Klaw attacks makes another 2. So 6 stealers to 10 Orks, if the Stealers charged. Orks still fearless, next turn stealers are down to 2 attacks each and probably won't have a chance anymore. Big points advantage to Orks.

Of course, you can charge multiple units of stealers in there with some feeder tendril support, but then when you wipe them he gets to shoot your cc units off of tjhe table and charge whats left. I'm not convinced that Tyranids are really that up against the nastier lists these days in cc

Very interesting discussion! I'm amazed it hasn't turned into people flaming eachother i'm pretty impressed Dakka!

Many interesting points, having played orks, nids for a long while and demons since the codex came out I figure I could offer a thing or 2 in this discussion.

Demons: Interestingly enough where as orks used to be the army for gamblers it is demons that have taken the crown from them. The nature of the demons army, from first turn deployment to the deployment of every unit afterward, is that of chance. Blood crushers and greater demons are amazing, truly amazing, but a single dice roll can fug up your whole situation. A far off scatter can take add 2 turns to the time it takes your bloodcrusher units to get into combat. Not to mention scattering and losing units. Not as easy as it used to be in 4th but you better believe it happens. My all Khorne demon army is very powerful but I have lost games that looked like a piece of cake from the deepstrike and first turn rolls. Are they the best in melee? Honestly I have to say yes. Does that make them the best melee army? I believe no. I've never had a carnifex deepstrike off the board and die, and i've never had a squad of nob bikers not come out till turn 4.

Nids: One of the problems the nids have on the internet is that people remember them as how they used to be in 4th edition. When changes in the rules made them less potent. So because of this, in discussions they are rarely taken as they come, instead they are compared to the way they used to be, like comparing your current girlfriend to your ex. Orks have warboss and nob bikers, Demons have crushers and greater demons, nids have tyrants, broodlords, stealers, warriors, carnifexs, ect... all of which are 50 times more modifiable then the 3 option (horn, icon, fury) crushers or the mercedes-benz expensive (pricey as hell, but you do get what you pay for) nob bikers. Plus ZERO units in orks or demons get preferred enemy where if you play your cards (well plastics) much of your nids army will have it for less points then ONE FREAKIN POWERFIST. However, the strength in the army comes from the combination of brutal assault units and efficient shooty units. They do feature the widest selection of CC units of all the codexes. If they aren't the best in melee, they are damn close. But with the splendid shooting options they have are they the best straight melee army? No.

Orks: Ah the orks, back in 3rd playing a non-speedfreaks army meant you had a tough, tough, battle ahead of you. I played sloggin orks for years, when the new orks codex came out I switched it up and started running assault orks. Talk about night and day difference between 3e orks dex in 4e and new orks dex in 5e. One of the biggest things I think people miss is that nob bikers, though ridiculously evil, are very expensive and far from the orky way. For the points you can get much more variety and many more models on the board. I ran the uber nob biker units in the beginning cause I had the models left over from a armageddon KoS army but in truth they were just too many points. I'm not writing this to debate nob bikers i'm bringing up the point that if you take away the nob bikers, and the warboss, suddenly there aren't that many uber assault units anymore. Stormboys are great, kommandos do a good job as well, but 12 boys in a truck? the staying power just isn't there. And with leadership and no consolidation, lets be realistic, the orks win games, but its not from straight melee, like the nids, its from a combination of assaulty and shooty units. Best melee units? Probably, till they get scared. Best melee army? Not in my opinion.

CSM: Landraiders with lords with demon weapon, assault terminators on the cheap (think MoK with lighting claws), demon princes at 130 pts with wings, raptors with MoK, fearless beserkers at only 5 points more then a standard space marine with +1 attack/WS/fearless. You can tool the CSM codex to be many things, but tooled as a CC army they are just brutal! Since chaos doesn't have a corban dallas multipass nob biker-esque uber unit often they are completely overlooked. Across the board they have excellent assault options, hell even one of the best shooty units in the army (obliterators) can flamer and powerfist the crap out of somebody. I built a Khorne army for fun (well I proxied it and am building it currently) and I was AMAZED at how well it performed. It's not single uberunits that make it so good, its all of the good units that make it uber. Best melee army? Not the best, but without a doubt the most underrated, at least in this discussion.

I will say this, at least in 4e, the one army my buddy played had everyone going "oh S**T" after they played him was jeff's pure Wulfen army. Man that army liked to f#$^ my s&#$ up! Black templars deserve a nod because as a straight up melee army they are quiet competitive.


So what's the best? That'll get answer right after what's the best gun/car/sex position/candy/ect..

Grundel out

I would say another Melee build is the MC Hammer Marine Army with Mastercrafted thunderhammers and ++3 Stormshields. 20 of these terminators along with Vulkan can put a serious hurting to most of the above mentioned armies.

Pure Storm Guardian Eldar are an unparalleled CC army. Not even those pesky Jeans-Stealers have a chance.

Bloodcrusher spam with Fateweaver and Soulgrinders beats both Zilla nidz and nob bikers/green tide in HtH superiority.

Second that. The top two are Crusher and Nob biker with a slight edge to Crusher all things being equal (playes skill ect). All others are 2nd tier.