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two_heads_talking wrote:

stonefox wrote:Only kids play a simple game like chess. Sophisticated adults like me play beer pong.

shooting ping pong balls outa someone's isn't exactly sophisticated..

Whoa, where do they play like this? I'm not really up on regional variants of the beer pong rules, but your version sounds much more sophisticated!

I'm a huge fan of 4e, so I have to say that I would trust WotC to do a far better job with rules than GW. My only concern is that WotC doesn't have much experience with tabletop miniature wargames, but I remembered that GW doesn't have much competence making the same, and my concern disappeared.

There WAS a collectible LOTR game at one time.

I don't want to see it ever happen again.

I want GW to get a real sci-fi license, like Dune.

malfred wrote:There WAS a collectible LOTR game at one time.

I don't want to see it ever happen again.

I want GW to get a real sci-fi license, like Dune.

While I agree with your choice (they could call it Warhammer 11k), GW NEEDS Star Trek! That way they would NEVER EVER EVER (etc) will run out of potential models to do. 8 Datas, 12 Picards, 50 Spocks, 100s of Kirks, then they can have models for one shot guest stars like Playmates did for the action figure line. Actually, a multi-part plastic kit like the Space Marine Commander for of the main Characters from so of the different series would be kind of cool. That or Dr. Who, it has a near endless supply of potential minis too.

Yeah, but part of Dr. Who's charm isn't necessarily the cool effects.

please change the title of this post to:
"who thinks gw and wizards should join so that they can charge even more for already ridiculously priced products?"

ty.

GW + WOTC =

Random metal models mixed with random paint droppers that all get retired
every 3 months and re-editioned every other year.

LOL, malfred!

Not to jump the topic...

I find it interesting that 3.5 books are going up in price on Amazon, while 4E books are going down in price.

Supply and Demand? People want the 3.5 books to use, no one wants the 4E books, so stores are trying to get rid of them?

krusty wrote:please change the title of this post to:
"who thinks gw and wizards should join so that they can charge even more for already ridiculously priced products?"

ty.

Why are they ridiculously priced? What are you comparing them to? Yes, there is stuff thats overpriced for the quality ( brushes, tools) but for the most part, GW figs are priced appropriate to the market.

Same with Wotc figures.....

I guess its a matter of perspective. I think paying 70K for a car is alot, and my friend thinks its a minor expense...

two_heads_talking wrote:I like to see Wizards of the Coast give dungeon's and dragons to GW.. that is all.

TSR thanks.

with an iron fist wrote:

two_heads_talking wrote:I like to see Wizards of the Coast give dungeon's and dragons to GW.. that is all.

TSR thanks.

TSR has been dead for years.

just want to see starwars as a table top wargame with better minis and better rules.

IIRC they bid on the licence to make the Star Wars Minis game but lost it to WotC. Which is a darn shame cause that would have been a really awsome game to go and thump some rebels with ma Clone Troopers, Pew Pew and all that.

4th ed D&D is terrible.

-They built the core of the game like it was a MMORPG. It's a IMFBRPG (in my friend's basement roleplaying game).
-They screwed up magic items, and the rules for
-They made healing ridiculously hard to try to get to in combat.
-In attempting to deal with the power gap between the magical and the non-magical classes at the lowest and the higher levels, they stripped any unique nature from the classes, and boil them down to variations upon their four roles: "defender," "leader," "controller" and "striker."
-They claimed that the game would be more tactical and faster paced; turns take nearly the same amount of time for players, and once combat has gotten into melee, it devolves into a scrum while the squishy characters shoot at range.
-Because they have split the PHB into at least two releases, the power creep is going to become even more evident as the core rules have not all been playtested side by side. The 4th ed version of the arms and equipment guide already has some game breaking magic items in the book due to a lack of playtesting, and we're six months into the edition.

Lastly, and the one that makes my blood boil because it was the greatest thing in the upgrade from 2nd to 3rd ed:

PCs and NPCs work on opposite rulesets.

Back on topic:

If WotC was to take over any GW games, we'd have new codices every three to five years.

For some armies, that wouldn't be bad.

bryantsbears wrote:If WotC was to take over any GW games, we'd have new codices every three to five years.

The problem is that each Codex would be a one-shot, with only a handful reprinted as part of the Core game.

Oh, wait...

bryantsbears wrote:4th ed D&D is terrible.

-They built the core of the game like it was a MMORPG. It's a IMFBRPG (in my friend's basement roleplaying game).
-They screwed up magic items, and the rules for
-They made healing ridiculously hard to try to get to in combat.
-In attempting to deal with the power gap between the magical and the non-magical classes at the lowest and the higher levels, they stripped any unique nature from the classes, and boil them down to variations upon their four roles: "defender," "leader," "controller" and "striker."
-They claimed that the game would be more tactical and faster paced; turns take nearly the same amount of time for players, and once combat has gotten into melee, it devolves into a scrum while the squishy characters shoot at range.
-Because they have split the PHB into at least two releases, the power creep is going to become even more evident as the core rules have not all been playtested side by side. The 4th ed version of the arms and equipment guide already has some game breaking magic items in the book due to a lack of playtesting, and we're six months into the edition.

I don't agree with most of your statements, but I don't wanna go off topic even more than I already am. I started D&D in 1981, and have played each edition regularly as it was released, and I hated 3rd edition about as much as you dislike 4th. I mean, 3rd edition was so screwed up they had to make a "3.5" edition in an effort to fix so much of the garbage they jacked up to begin with.

4th is different - but it's also a blast to play. As a DM, it's far easier to plan an adventure now than ever before - tools built into the system allow a DM to waste less time on micromanagement, and use that time for more FUN stuff. Personally, they could have put 4th edition out on napkins written in crayon, and I would have cheered.

In the end, though, the DM has the power to modify whatever he wants in order to make his group happy. I've already altered some of the magic tables for my group, to add in some of the things from previous editions that we preferred. And no, the WOTC police haven't broken down the door yet.

In regards to the poster's comments about 3rd edition stuff going 'up in price'... it's something I saw happen with 1st to 2nd, and 2nd to 3rd editions, as well. The reason seems pretty obvious - an edition is going out of print, and each of those editions had fans. If it's no longer being made, and if there's still a demand for it, obviously the prices will go up. 4th ed, however, is going to be in continuous printing from now until... well... 4.5, or 5th edition maybe. If that's the case, it stands to reason that they'd remain the same price - or be available through traditional discounters around the globe for lower than retail.

But hey - if 3rd edition stuff is spiking upward and you know someone who wants 3rd ed stuff, please send 'em my way - I have a ton of my own I'd love to dump, and I know a few stores with discounted 3rd ed stock whom I could contact and make a profit from.

How does any of this relate to WotC trading places with GW? Personally, I'd hate to see WotC touch GW's games, and vice-versa. If WotC could somehow make a 'better' 40K or WHFB, I think they would have done so by now with a different name/license. Ditto for GW and its product line, as well. Both companies really should just stick to doing what they do successfully, in my opinion.

Just my 2 coppers, tho.

-Mort

Sure glad I started lurking here instead of the Wizards site to avoid all of the 4E whinefests, thanks guys!

Though from the viewpoint of someone just getting into TT gaming, the way GW runs its company and treats its customers, well it makes WotC look like a damn magical company of perfection. I feel bad for all the crap I've given them in the past after GW apparently says F you to its fans, we know you'll but it anyway, and sad part is they seem to be right. I love the 40k verse, and even Fantasy has been growing on me, but the price of things at retail is ridiculous, and their online ordering stranglehold is absurd as well. Though thanks for eBay. But the rules, even considering all the crap in D&D, the loopholes, inconsistencies, and downright negligence shown in so much of GW's ruleset is amazing. This is a game many people play competitively, often with tangible rewards on the line, yet they can't keep their rules up to date and they refuse to publish in depth Faqs and Errata. I understand making minis is their main thing, I really do, but how people who play by these rules in a tourney environment do it, I just don't know. Especially after shelling out hundreds or even thosands for figures they have to assemble themselves to make look halfway decent. Even in a friendly environment the rules are really subpar. D&D is the definition of a friendly game, I can't play D&D to win prizes by crushing all comers, yet their ruleset is far more balanced and receives constant updates to correct mistakes. Is it perfect, hell no, it's D&D ;-) After seeing 40K rules though where there's that adversarial approach right from the start and less incentive to give way or even the ability to make house rules, like at a tourney, I'm downright stunned it's put up with. Not to mention that every few years your rules are obsoleted. The 8 years from 3E to 4E of D&D caused so much nerd rage it was unbelievable to me, if they started cycling rules like GW does I can't believe they'd be able to profit.

Which brings me to this, somehow GW sucks at making a profit despite grossly overpriced products and a fan base willing to put up with damn near anything. That's shocking, absolutely shocking. I know that doesn't encompass everyone by any means, but so many guys complain about GW in one post and then show their new pile of miniatures they just bought for hundreds and hundreds of dollars in another. That really doesn't tell me that you want the company to change if you keep rewarding them for not doing so. WotC on the other hand gets slammed constantly by its fans and others and even when someone does buy a book it often can do an entire gaming group well. There are certainly D&D fans who buy everything, but it's nowhere near the level with GW extreme fans. A $30-$40 book a month doesn't equal out to the amount of money some people put down for minis by a long shot. Sure minis cost more to make than printed words and pictures, but I still don't see how that isn't enough. Still WotC makes a profit, 4E was a huge success, and even DDI seems to be doing well, though I find it horribly overpriced for what it offers. Though seeing what people throw down in Warhammer land, if GW did a monthly e-zine with actual new rules and scenarios, a referenced rules DB, an all-inclusive army builder, and a way to play online games with 3D minis for $15 a month I think people would be all over that. Though in D&D land I think that's way overpriced because I can play an MMO for that much and I'll go do that instead. But even that, their DDI trainwreck, is managing to do well.

WotC does make more than D&D, but all around WotC makes a profit and runs their business fairly well. GW loses money with the most recognizable minis game on the planet and some of the most dedicated fans I have ever seen. Those things do not compute.

That all being said, I am getting into TT stuff because I enjoy it after I played with one of my friends. It's a whole new aspect of geekdom and I love the story. I do find myself wanting to run TT campaigns though. GW has also made an interesting universe and I love most of the fluff. I also love the minis even if most of them defy any real logic. The rules discrepancies, money and time investment though. Well if not for eBay and the fact I only want to do this with friends I never would.

After seeing WotC getting bashed in this thread, I just had to speak up, because I have given WotC a ton of crap in the past, but compated to GW, it's run by F'n geniuses. Having to always make bottom line with Hasbro helps them more than it hurts them with that I think.

But yeah, that's it for my rambling. The above is of course just my opinion. I also realize that arguing on the internet is like pissing into an ocean of piss, but sometimes I break and I have to ;-)

Anyway, that's it, have some random words from a 15 year D&D player and 3 month 40K player.

Mort wrote:
But hey - if 3rd edition stuff is spiking upward and you know someone who wants 3rd ed stuff, please send 'em my way - I have a ton of my own I'd love to dump, and I know a few stores with discounted 3rd ed stock whom I could contact and make a profit from.

How does any of this relate to WotC trading places with GW? Personally, I'd hate to see WotC touch GW's games, and vice-versa. If WotC could somehow make a 'better' 40K or WHFB, I think they would have done so by now with a different name/license. Ditto for GW and its product line, as well. Both companies really should just stick to doing what they do successfully, in my opinion.

Just my 2 coppers, tho.

-Mort

Thankfully 3.x stuff isn't spiking, I sold a lot of my stuff back in August when the nerd rage was still high and made out pretty well after I realized I had dozens of books that I never really used and would likely never really need. Though if it ever does spike I still have plenty of compulsively bought books I wouldn't mind selling still ;-) I just got tired of DMing 3.x, it was way too much work for the reward I got, plus the BS you had to houserule, I didn't want to do it anymore. Just the rare game for my very close friends now and that's it. Now I happily DM a DH game and a 4E game and life is good =)

I also agree with you about the WotC and GW thing, they're both on top of their respective markets because despite all the wrong they're obviously doing a fair bit of right. That being said WFRP and DH are great game systems and DDM isn't a bad game either and is a super cheap way to get RP minis. Singles at FRPgames made my fantasy RP games a far more interesting place then that d20's the evil cleric and those d6's are his undead minions, though I do miss the silliness from time to time still...

Anyway, there you go, seems I still had some rambling left in me ;-)

Um, GW is making *plenty* of profit. They're just plowing most of into plastics development. So it's a paper zero.

bryantsbears, I disagree with you categorically, but since you're obviously a fellow Guardsman, I'll agree to let you play your 3.x if you let me play mine.

Neconilis, I agree with you categorically. Compared to ANY OTHER COMPANY, it seems GW is run by monkeys (maybe redshirts?), and its amazing they are still in business despite how often they screw their fans/customers. Hell, 40k is given a specific exception to the They Changed It Now It Sucks trope.

Oh, don't get me wrong - my gaming group is playing 4th ed. As I attain levels, my cup is further filled with rage that they're calling this D&D.

Truthfully, I wouldn't have a problem if it was called something else - might even enjoy it. It just doesn't feel like D&D to me anymore; it feels like an MMO.

And yes- guardsmen have to still together, at least in squad form.

bryantsbears wrote:I'd rather not have Wizards of the Coast get close to any hobby which I have after they ruined thirty beautiful years of D&D with 4th edition.

Oh noes! 1st level Wizards are no longer walking wands, DMs don't have to do calculus to figure out a level-appropriate encounter, and no one has to remember what the hell a mind-affecting spell-like effect is! It's all ruined! Ruined!

If my D&D game doesn't require me to poop in a sock due to intense focus and social apathy, I ain't playing it.

MagickalMemories wrote:

bryantsbears wrote:I'd rather not have Wizards of the Coast get close to any hobby which I have after they ruined thirty beautiful years of D&D with EVERYTHING AFTER 2ND edition.

Fixed your quote.
; )

Eric

QFT, the most serious 'QFT' I have ever written.

nah, GW does not need another Sci fi game. BFG needs attention first.

although i have no problem with them droping LotR. I've hated that game since it came out.