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Thalor wrote:

The main thing you have to worry about not hurting is vehicles, krak grenades (included on the troops) and a melta-bomb on the champ will take care of this nicely. The Int. 5 PW just has too much damage prevention potential to pass up. Now on plague marines go PF all the way..

Thalor

I can't agree with this more.

The general consensus on power fists is "it will take care of things a power weapon can't."

This just isn't true. A static power fist with two attacks doesn't do a whole lot in the age of 5th edition, and I basically think it's only there as independent character control. True, against a dreadnought you might knock it out but how many turns later? He has to kill somewhere around 4 noise marines to get his points back and I guarantee he will last at least two turns killing somewhere around 3 marines each... it's not touching a carnifex, tyrant, wraithlord, avatar, greater daemon, daemon prince, talos... they just don't get enough attacks anymore since mutation, the off hand weapon etc is gone.

I wouldn't waste the I5 power weapon. If it kills even two terminators before they get to go, you just saved a good chunk of your squad. Even against other marines, it should shut down 3-6 attacks before they even come you're way. I've just had too much luck with I5 power weapons to give it up for a power fist that doesn't prevent damage, and gets one less attack.

Now thalor, I wasn't sure what you meant about the "extra cc attacks". The sonic blaster replaces the bolter, so you can still uber-grit with sonic blaster wielding marines...

Krak grenades are powerless againast an Ironclad dreadnought. And all grenades (krack, melta) only get a single attack and hit on a 6. Much less likely than getting two attacks at 4+.

As for the extra attack of a power weapon. It still achieves fewer wounds than a powerfist against anything tougher than a grot. If you are charged by I4 terminators that I5 sword will get 3 attacks, landing 1.5 and wounding .75 meaning that you have killed 0.5 terminators before they get to strike. All this while still leaving you at the mercy of Wraithlords, Dreadnoughts, etc. Really not worth it unless you are always certain that your enemy will not field such units.

I like NM with Blastmaster as the only MSU Heavy that CSM can take.

I don't like Sonic Blasters, as I think they're just too expensive as an upgrade - too little impact for too much cost.

I do like I5 PWs - it's not too expensive, and saving a couple 20+ NM in HtH is always a good idea.

Sonic blasters are expensive, but the 40 point blastmaster is fine? Or should I say 140 point, since you bought 5 noisemarines for it?

Sonic Blasters add more Bolter fire for 5 pts per model with on increase in survivability and limited additional killiness. So that's a minimum of 25 pts for a squad of 5 models. I'd rather give up only 20 VPs/wound than 25 VPs/wound.

Compared with 10 Marked CSM w/ ML, 140 pts for 5 Fearless NM with BM is clearly cheaper and more dangerous.

Well, since VPs aren't part of the primary scoring system in 5th I've never worried about them.

But a unit of 10 NM shooting 30 bolter shots per turn out to range 24 is very impressive - much more so than only 10 shots at the same range using standard bolters. In fact the Sonic Blasters make NM far better at killing MEQ in the 12"-24" range bracket than Thousand Sons.

And in a shooting fight, Fearless is worth a lot of points. Just killing 6 of those 10 marked CSM can make them fall back and never recover due to being below 1/2 strength.

In the end, it all depends on how you use them. If you are looking for a short range firefight (0"-12") then the Sonic Blaster may not be worth the points. Certainly not over standard CSM. But that would be a mis-use of the Sonic Blaster Noise Marines. They are designed to be a fire base which pours out a hail of small arms fire capapble of devastating many enemy units.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Sonic Blasters add more Bolter fire for 5 pts per model with (no) increase in survivability and limited additional killiness.

Again, this depends how you use them. If you're hopping out of a rhino and firing, then you're 100% correct, the sonic blaster is a waste of points.

But - and this is where I think most people make the mistake with noise marines - you're not just paying for marines with special guns, you're paying for noise marines with special guns. Part of being a noise marine is having I5, and you better believe that's part of the 20 point cost on a noise marine. This means that, ideally, you want to be in close combat at some point, because otherwise, you're wasting the points you're spending on increased initiative.

Paying 25 points a model for two bolter shots each when you hop out of a rhino is a horrible waste of points. Paying 25 points a model for 5 attacks each when you hop out of a land raider, shoot, and then assault, is much more reasonable. The 'assault' part of sonic blasters is the reason to take them, and the only reliable way to use them effectively is via a land raider rush.

That's my take on it anyhow.

I found this unit NM config good in objective holding.

10 NM 5x Sonic Blasters 1x Blastmaser 265 points.

@Redbeard: Totally agreed that NM are configurable to support a variety of uses on the battlefield.

Democratus wrote:Krak grenades are powerless againast an Ironclad dreadnought. And all grenades (krack, melta) only get a single attack and hit on a 6. Much less likely than getting two attacks at 4+.

As for the extra attack of a power weapon. It still achieves fewer wounds than a powerfist against anything tougher than a grot. If you are charged by I4 terminators that I5 sword will get 3 attacks, landing 1.5 and wounding .75 meaning that you have killed 0.5 terminators before they get to strike. All this while still leaving you at the mercy of Wraithlords, Dreadnoughts, etc. Really not worth it unless you are always certain that your enemy will not field such units.

I recognize your numbers and agree to a point, but I view Noise Marines as in a constant state of double tapping then charging, or standing still and triple tapping.

It's just my view that the power weapon - combined with the rest of the unit's shots and superior I attacks, tends to add more than waiting for a power fist to go off.

I have had too many combats come down to whiffing with power fists or losing too much ground waiting for them to go off, where as one or two power weapon hits would have won it.

Back to the numbers real fast like, I know you get decimals and etc, but it's really more like zero kills, 3 kills, 1 kill and so forth. Sometimes you don't participate and sometimes you end up killing 3+ 4 toughness models.

I'm really not impressed with power fists in 5th edition, unless on slower units or very resilient ones.

list I ran at the GT and did very well was the following:

Two Lash daemon princes with wings

3 squads of 8 noise marines all with sonic blasters and blast master
one squad of 7 with noise marines with sonic blasters and blast master

two defilers(all close combat weapons)

3 oblits

Pretty effective as Neal who won the circuit only had grots left on the table after we played. I couldn't get to the Grots in time before the game finished.

Democratus wrote:
But a unit of 10 NM shooting 30 bolter shots per turn out to range 24 is very impressive - much more so than only 10 shots at the same range using standard bolters. In fact the Sonic Blasters make NM far better at killing MEQ in the 12"-24" range bracket than Thousand Sons.

In the end, it all depends on how you use them. If you are looking for a short range firefight (0"-12") then the Sonic Blaster may not be worth the points. Certainly not over standard CSM. But that would be a mis-use of the Sonic Blaster Noise Marines. They are designed to be a fire base which pours out a hail of small arms fire capapble of devastating many enemy units.

Indeed, sonic blasters are worth it if you can keep the enemy at range, 13'' - 24''. But in the flow of battle this is hardly achievable, at least not for several rounds. If the enemy is that close he might charge you next turn. And he usually will be so stupid to bring his scoring units that close.

Defiler wrote:I recognize your numbers and agree to a point, but I view Noise Marines as in a constant state of double tapping then charging, or standing still and triple tapping.

It's just my view that the power weapon - combined with the rest of the unit's shots and superior I attacks, tends to add more than waiting for a power fist to go off.

I have had too many combats come down to whiffing with power fists or losing too much ground waiting for them to go off, where as one or two power weapon hits would have won it.

Back to the numbers real fast like, I know you get decimals and etc, but it's really more like zero kills, 3 kills, 1 kill and so forth. Sometimes you don't participate and sometimes you end up killing 3+ 4 toughness models.

I'm really not impressed with power fists in 5th edition, unless on slower units or very resilient ones.

Fair points. But I do have to say that if a Power Fist whiffed - then a power weapon would whiff as well. So that isn't an argument against PFs, just against horrible dice.

As for the numbers, the decimal points represent the "sometimes" word that you put into your language above. They tell you exactly how often to expect that "sometimes" to occur and, therefore, are quite useful. They also aggregate well to reflect the result of multiple phases as with the hit->wound->save mechanic.

All of this stuff depends on your gaming environment, of course. Where I game I commonly face Drop Pod Ironclad Dreadnoughts and bike-mounted ork Nobs. A power fist is the best answer to these threats as a power weapon is next to useless. If your local gaming environment seldom puts T5+ units in your face then the power weapon may be the hurty stick of choice.

I'm just glad that Noise Marines are flexible enough that all these choices are available to us.

Aren't Noise Marines weapons Assault/2 'or' Heavy/3.

How are you getting 30 attacks on the charge?
Shouldn't they be [Shoot x20] [Assault x20]

Democratus wrote:

Defiler wrote:I recognize your numbers and agree to a point, but I view Noise Marines as in a constant state of double tapping then charging, or standing still and triple tapping.

It's just my view that the power weapon - combined with the rest of the unit's shots and superior I attacks, tends to add more than waiting for a power fist to go off.

I have had too many combats come down to whiffing with power fists or losing too much ground waiting for them to go off, where as one or two power weapon hits would have won it.

Back to the numbers real fast like, I know you get decimals and etc, but it's really more like zero kills, 3 kills, 1 kill and so forth. Sometimes you don't participate and sometimes you end up killing 3+ 4 toughness models.

I'm really not impressed with power fists in 5th edition, unless on slower units or very resilient ones.

Fair points. But I do have to say that if a Power Fist whiffed - then a power weapon would whiff as well. So that isn't an argument against PFs, just against horrible dice.

As for the numbers, the decimal points represent the "sometimes" word that you put into your language above. They tell you exactly how often to expect that "sometimes" to occur and, therefore, are quite useful. They also aggregate well to reflect the result of multiple phases as with the hit->wound->save mechanic.

All of this stuff depends on your gaming environment, of course. Where I game I commonly face Drop Pod Ironclad Dreadnoughts and bike-mounted ork Nobs. A power fist is the best answer to these threats as a power weapon is next to useless. If your local gaming environment seldom puts T5+ units in your face then the power weapon may be the hurty stick of choice.

I'm just glad that Noise Marines are flexible enough that all these choices are available to us.

In order :

* About the whiffing comment, I meant (and should have elaborated properly) to say that 2 base attacks usually convert to one attack hitting, and then needing big numbers to hurt armor. For the cost versus performance in 5th edition, I'm starting to drift away from powerfists and preferring to use things like Daemon princes, A greater Daemon and a bunch of melta's in case of bigger things like that. I'm even starting to believe that power weapon + meltabomb (at least in case of the NM) is the way to go. On stuff like Khorne and Nurgle, absolutely the fist is a superior options being that nurgle isn't fast enough to influence a combat until everyone that matters goes first and being that lascannon power fists with a million attacks on the charge is waaaaay too good to pass up, even if it means giving up like 5 S5 I5 power weapon hits.

Once again, I recognize your point about fists keeping the squad capable of dealing with threats - and they can still swat IC's very easily - but I think capable is the operating word here - and not reliably, so maybe that's just a pill you should swallow ahead of time and form your army around not using power fists.

* Yep, I got that about the fractions. We agree on something

* Too true, however I guess this is where we will continue to forever disagree. I just don't see powerfists impacting most combats in reasonable ways for their points in most cases. Even in the biker example - you're probably getting charged, and unless you're khorne, you have two fists. One hits, one instakills a biker. Granted, it's definitely worth the 75+ points the biker cost but you're still going to lose many more models in exchange. I just don't see fists as a proper defense against Dreads, Ironclads, bikers, big nasty units etc.

Back when we could get the off hand, and mutation, and daemonic strength on our champs I would have said absolutely.

So here's the crux of my argument, and what I see yours as :

Me - Power fists aren't worth 25 points to get usually one attack.
You - They are the best answer we have to certain CC elements.
Me - But our best answer is very suboptimal to begin with.
You - It's still the best we have, and I choose to use it instead of an inferior power weapon.

Sound about right, Demo?

In any event, it's nice to talk strategy with someone who isn't a jerk or actually knows what they are talking about. I don't have much success with war hammer forums in those regards. I do respect your opinion, I just look at the game a different way.

Ealiom wrote:Aren't Noise Marines weapons Assault/2 'or' Heavy/3.

How are you getting 30 attacks on the charge?
Shouldn't they be [Shoot x20] [Assault x20]

Well, for 10 NM kitted out, it's like 20 shots, and then 30 CC attacks on the charge.

Sonic blaster for 2x per marine, and the CC weapon + bolt pistol + charge bonus for 3x per.

Right?

Correct.

You Slaaneshi players: Does no one run Noise Marines in the sacred numbers anymore? Is 6 too few to make a dent these days and too easy to kill to get a KP?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozymandias wrote:Correct.

You Slaaneshi players: Does no one run Noise Marines in the sacred numbers anymore? Is 6 too few to make a dent these days and too easy to kill to get a KP?

I don't follow. I checked the Chaos Marine codex, and then, for good measure, the Chaos Daemon codex. I also checked the fantasy Daemon codex, and the Fantasy Chaos Mortal codex, and I cannot find any reference to this sacred number that you are asking about.

Unless you're talking about the old codex stuff, but I don't take sonic terminators or a keeper of secrets anymore either, so, you know, you win some, you lose some.

I'm planning on Sacred Numbers, but doing so precludes certain builds.

6 Noise Marines
- only viable as a MSU Blastmaster gun team. Too small for HTH.

7 Plague Marines
- OK with Plasmaguns, but a reinforcement unit, rather than a lead unit

8 Berzerkers
- OK in a Rhino, but the extra 2 guys would be helpful in Assault.

I'm not taking kSons, as I think they suck, especially compared to 10 ordinary CSM or 5 Lesser Daemons.

Well, at the moment I tend to take several small gun teams:

6 NM w/ blastmaster - 160 pts.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, at the moment I tend to take several small gun teams:

6 NM w/ blastmaster - 160 pts.

Oh god. I forgot how expensive cult marines are. I expect at least twenty models for that points cost!

Yeah, expensive. But they don't run away and multiple blastmasters put a dent in any MEQ unit.

Defiler wrote:* Too true, however I guess this is where we will continue to forever disagree. I just don't see powerfists impacting most combats in reasonable ways for their points in most cases. Even in the biker example - you're probably getting charged, and unless you're khorne, you have two fists. One hits, one instakills a biker. Granted, it's definitely worth the 75+ points the biker cost but you're still going to lose many more models in exchange. I just don't see fists as a proper defense against Dreads, Ironclads, bikers, big nasty units etc.

Fair enough. But what do you see as a defense when your unit is (despite your best efforts) charged by these units?

Back when we could get the off hand, and mutation, and daemonic strength on our champs I would have said absolutely.

Ahh, the good old days. What I wouldn't give for a Dread Axe for my daemon prince. Would make the new SM terimes cry!

So here's the crux of my argument, and what I see yours as :

Me - Power fists aren't worth 25 points to get usually one attack.
You - They are the best answer we have to certain CC elements.
Me - But our best answer is very suboptimal to begin with.
You - It's still the best we have, and I choose to use it instead of an inferior power weapon.

Sound about right, Demo?

Almost. I actually believe that the Power fist is worth it at 25 points. In fact I think they are still undercosted as I would pay up to 35 points before even starting to worry about it. In practice, in the field, I can attribute more kills to my Power Fist champions than to the entire rest of their squads (excepting Berzerkers). This is due both to the wounding on 2+ and the ignoring armor saves.

But essentially it is correct. When you aren't stuck in CC the Meltagun is far more efficient tool for the points. There's really little it can't splat and you can often have more than one in a squad.

In any event, it's nice to talk strategy with someone who isn't a jerk or actually knows what they are talking about. I don't have much success with war hammer forums in those regards. I do respect your opinion, I just look at the game a different way.

Agreed! Real civil discussion is rare. It's nice to participate in one. A shame we aren't playing at the same FLGS so we could test our two competing build methods on the field of battle. Perhaps we'd both learn something new.

Redbeard wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:Correct.

You Slaaneshi players: Does no one run Noise Marines in the sacred numbers anymore? Is 6 too few to make a dent these days and too easy to kill to get a KP?

I don't follow. I checked the Chaos Marine codex, and then, for good measure, the Chaos Daemon codex. I also checked the fantasy Daemon codex, and the Fantasy Chaos Mortal codex, and I cannot find any reference to this sacred number that you are asking about.

Unless you're talking about the old codex stuff, but I don't take sonic terminators or a keeper of secrets anymore either, so, you know, you win some, you lose some.

Not all of us need rules for our fluff...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

But that's the point, it isn't fluff anymore. Fluff changes. The fluff surrounding chaos has changed many times throughout different books. Is clinging to old fluff supposed to be noble or something?

It seems to me that if the fluff wasn't important enough for GW to allow Slaanesh marines to summon Slaanesh daemon(ettes), why should I feel compelled to cling to outdated fluff when doing so yields units that are considerably less viable in the game, as it plays in 5th edition.

You don't have to cling to anything. I was asking if the unit is still effective if run in a 6 man squad. I am not compelling you to take 6 man units, just wondering how effective it would be if I did so.

And of course fluff changes all the time. Back in RT and 2nd Ed, sacred numbers were there. Gone in 3rd, back in 3.5, and gone again in 4th. I can still use them if I want to though.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Exactly.

While nothing forces (or even encourages) one to use Sacred Numbers, it's part of the old Fluff that you can choose to follow.

Really, it's no different than choosing to build and play Marines as a Demi-Company or use a Codex Battle Company as one's OOB. It's simply one's choice to adhere to old Fluff for the sake of having a stronger theme over pure utility.

Yes, dispense with all flavor! In fact, dispense with everything that makes 40k any more than a mathematical excercise. I bet if you tried hard enough, you could take two armies, tell us who would win through probability, and we can shake hands, say good game, and go do something else.

Why do we play this game if not for fluff reasons? Even at a tournament, im there for more than a die rolling exhibition.

Exactly so!

If one cares purely for gameplay, there are much stronger venues to show off.

Like the Magic Pro Tour.

Which actually paid *real* money.

To answer your question, six noise marines can be run as a hang-back-and-shoot blastmaster unit.

Trying to use six noise maries, fearless or not, to accomplish the sorts of go-out-and-get-that unit that 5th ed requires is futile. You don't have the wounds to suffer any sort of attention your opponent decides to put your way, and you don't have the killing power needed to survive via killing their guys.

A rhino or a landraider holds ten men. I recommend filling the transport.


As for the assertion that I'm advocating a no-fluff-at-all approach - there is a difference between making a fluffy army as the current fluff indicates, and claiming that the only way to be fluffy is to adhere to rules and concepts from prior editions. I run a chaos dreadnought, I'm not advocating playing a game with no fun.

But the old sacred numbers, especially for slaanesh, simply do not work well with the new requirement that troops be able to get to a location and sit there and not die. Six bodies in power armour just aren't enough. To claim that doing so is fluffy just isn't true anymore. The fluff changed. There are four books on Chaos out currently (between fantasy and 40k) and none of them have any indication that there are magic numbers.