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@Red: I don't see any incompatibility between what you're saying and Sacred Numbers. It's merely a choice that the player makes between theme and utility.

Ozymandias wrote:Correct.

You Slaaneshi players: Does no one run Noise Marines in the sacred numbers anymore? Is 6 too few to make a dent these days and too easy to kill to get a KP?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I don't think so, it's just that if you're using them in a rhino I would prefer to maximize the capacity.

With the 5 man NM squads holding a blastmaster, I'm still bitter over my old havocs being amazing. I guess the 5 man minimum heavy weapon team is my revenge against GWS?

I'd like to run the numbers, but the codex doesn't want that anymore. I could justify 6 man teams in rhinos before or 12 walking ones when a free champ upgrade helped balance out the cost. NM are very costly, and it's rough to assemble them to any effect without being careful about their numbers. I don't personally like 5 man blastmasters, but it's just not practical to add another 25 points that may or may not be shooting along with the heavy weapon.

Well, sacred numbers are gone.
I'd usually take 6 NM with blastmaster and 8 NM in a Rhino.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Red: I don't see any incompatibility between what you're saying and Sacred Numbers. It's merely a choice that the player makes between theme and utility.

You're missing his point. He's saying that there are no sacred numbers anymore, not even in the fluff. They're like squats and sensei and IG land speeders and SM lieutenant commanders - they've been dropped. It's not a choice between theme and utility - you're not being "fluffy" by using sacred numbers because the fluff for sacred numbers is no longer part of the background. Do you consider it more "fluffy" to only field tactical squads with missile launchers, lascannons, and heavy bolters because in the 3rd edition codex they used to not be able to take the other heavy weapons?

In RT / 2E, SM could field a wider array of things, so why should I take 3E SM weapon limits (or 5E removal of Sacred Numbers) as canon?

I think you should take whatever is current as canon. If the game designers have abandoned a concept, just let it go.

I guess if people want to cling to squats, or six man squads, that's cool for them, but I don't want to be told that I'm not fluffy for not adhering to something that I cannot find in any current source material.

The sacred numbers can be found in the Chaos Daemons codex. Simply look at the squad sizes allowed for various marked units.

That being said, I don't think a player should restrict themselves if they don't want to do so. I was merely curious about the numbers above because of the 6-man PM squad. I thought perhaps there was some significance.

Democratus wrote:The sacred numbers can be found in the Chaos Daemons codex. Simply look at the squad sizes allowed for various marked units.

Daemonettes of Slaanesh 5-20
Bloodletters of Khorne 5-20
Plaguebearers of Nurgle 5-20
Pink Horrors of Tzeentch 5-20
Seekers of Slaanesh 5-20
Flesh Hounds of Khorne 5-20
Flamers of Tzeentch 3-12
Screamers of Tzeentch 3-12
Nurglings 3-9

Yeah, I see your point.
There are three whole units that have a maximum unit size that correspond with the old sacred numbers. There are ten units that do not. Sacred numbers are not mentioned in the text of the Daemon codex. I doubt a new player would ever guess that those unit sizes meant anything. Perhaps they're there as an easter egg for the old-timers. But I'd hardly call it demonstrative proof that the only way to field fluffy noise marines is in units of six, when two-thirds of the slaanesh units in the Daemon codex run unit sizes of 5-20.

Redbeard wrote:I think you should take whatever is current as canon. If the game designers have abandoned a concept, just let it go.

I guess if people want to cling to squats, or six man squads, that's cool for them, but I don't want to be told that I'm not fluffy for not adhering to something that I cannot find in any current source material.

Seemed to really touched a nerve here. Don't remember calling you unfluffy, just asked about the competitiveness of a 6 man noise marine squad. I got my answer, that they are good for Blastmaster squads but not so optimized.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

@Ozy - you didn't. It was this post that irked me:

Hokkaido23 wrote:
Yes, dispense with all flavor! In fact, dispense with everything that makes 40k any more than a mathematical excercise. I bet if you tried hard enough, you could take two armies, tell us who would win through probability, and we can shake hands, say good game, and go do something else.

Why do we play this game if not for fluff reasons? Even at a tournament, im there for more than a die rolling exhibition.

Redbeard wrote:But I'd hardly call it demonstrative proof that the only way to field fluffy noise marines is in units of six, when two-thirds of the slaanesh units in the Daemon codex run unit sizes of 5-20.

And when in this thread did I say that the "only way to field fluffy noise marines" was in units if six?

I believe that would be never.

I do like that if I buy a box of Khorne Berzerkers, there happens to be eight of them. Nine Thousand Sons in their box. Plague Marine box? Hey...there are seven!

Just like many people enjoy building a pre-heresy Death Guard army, others enjoy building a 'Sacred Numbers' chaos force. It's just a choice in how to build an army.

Yeah, but the NM box contains 8 Marines. Makes sense. For the same price as a Khorne Marine box.