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Green Blow Fly wrote:From a fluff point of view there is no need for LOS.

G

From a fluff point of view Pariahs should actually be good, and a handful of Space Marines should be able to take on an entire Ork horde.

Wow, the litany of incorrect things in this string are scary.

Here's how the rules work:
1. If the vehicle moves, the embarked models count as moving, therefore no Orbital Bombardment.
2. Orbital Bombardment is not an Indirect Fire weapon, even though it should be.
3. You need LOS, so models in an LR cannot fire it.
4. You cannot use the Orbital Bombardment and fire another weapon (this wasn't asked, but I thought it makes sense to include int he rules roundup) since you cannot fire two weapons (with certain exceptions - see cyclone ML, for instance)
5. Orbital Bombardment has special and specific rules, it is not a move-or fire weapon or a heavy weapon but a different classification altogether. Therefore, Relentless does not matter.

I think that covers it.

can you quote the rule for orbital bombardment for me?

Antonin wrote:
2. Orbital Bombardment is not an Indirect Fire weapon, even though it should be.
3. You need LOS, so models in an LR cannot fire it

Here is where I disagree an orbital bombardment has barrage in its profile. Barrage weapons do not require LOS but, when they fire in this way they have a penalty on the scatter. Anyways since it counts as a barrage weapon why does it require LOS?

Agree with yermom, Orbital Bombardment is Indirect Fire, ie Barrage and does not need LOS.
Sounds to me like you can fire it from inside a Land Raider, so long as the vehicle has not moved.

*air

focusedfire wrote:Is the bombardment a barrage? If so then no LOS needed. If vehicle moves then the character has moved so no ordinance.

Well, he might be able to lay down the law (ordinance) but he cannot Indirect Fire any Ordnance. Althooooo............ hmmmmm, therre is the bit in the rules now about being able to direct fire Ordnance Barrage weaponry if you move. Fortunately the OB rules themselves close that loophole!!

*air

focusedfire wrote:I thought all barrages are pretty much indirect these days.

And? Not sure where you're going with that.

Yes, Barrage weapons have the ability to fire Indirect, ie at a target to which you have no LOS. They can also fire Barrage onto a target to which you do have LOS. They may also move and fire direct, ignoring any range restrictions.

Looks like Don Mondo and I see eye to eye on this.

*air

No, it's not an "ordinance barrage", no such thing in the game that I'm aware of. That would probably be in the Judge Dredd game, where he's able to fire a LAW Blast Marker. (Yeah, I'm gonna keep making fun of people until they spell it correctly). But it is Ordnance and it is Barrage.

As for Ordnance Barrage weapons following Barrage rules, yes, they do, with the exception that a vehicle with an Ordnance Barrage weapon can move and fire it directly instead of using the Barrage capability, while non-vehicular Barrage weapons (IG Mortars, Eldar something) cannot do so.

pg. 58

Ordnance Barrage: (paraphrase) Can fire directly *or* as a barrage (follow barrage rules). Cause Pinning tests at a -1 Ld. But remember, OB rules specifically state that you must not have moved and scatter full 2d6.


pg. 32
Barrage: (paraphrase) Can fire at targets out of LOS. Cover is determined from center of hole.



Basically, think of it as your Chapter Master is firing a really big mortar with unlimited range. If you were in a vehicle could you fire the mortar? Only if there was a way to fire out of a vehicle. It is still a shooting weapon and therefore is bound by those rules (until faq).

don_mondo wrote:Agree with yermom, Orbital Bombardment is Indirect Fire, ie Barrage and does not need LOS.
Sounds to me like you can fire it from inside a Land Raider, so long as the vehicle has not moved.

Agreed 100%!

Score another one for the power armor.



"handful of Space Marines should be able to take on an entire Ork horde."

Tell that to any self respecting warboss.

G

Read the fluff. Hell, in Iron Snakes a Marine goes blind and still kills a dozen orks with his bolter. And in Iron Hands a Marine with an autocannon explodes a truck, also goes blind, and kills the entire squad with gunfire.

Obviously, Marines can kill Ork hordes with their eyes closed.

Hello! THERE IS NO FIRE POINT IN A LAND RAIDER!! it does not matter if the strike requires line of sight or not. There is no fire point in a land raider. If a chapter master is in a rino that does not move can he fire the orbital strike? Absolutly. Chimera? Sure, but not out of a land raider.

You dont think a Chapter Master in a landraider is not going to have visual display of what is happening outside his pimp ride?

There is plenty of fluff where big orks mashed beekies... it just depends on which codex you are reading really.

G

I am not understanding why people think you can fire inside a LR... It has no Fire Points...

Could I fire a mortar out of a LR, no. So can I fire OB? No.

The bombardment comes from a battle cruiser, not the landraider and certainly not the Chapter Master.

G

Sadly, Fluff is nice.. but shouldnt be used as a basis for rules interpretation beyond whats written within the rule itself.

If Psychic Shooting Attacks from Eldar that require no LOS (IIRC they have some? Could be wrong..I dont have the Codex at work) have been accecpted as being able to fire from a Falcon with no fire points, where is the precident to say that a Special Rule (Orbital Bombardment) cannot also be used from inside a vehicle with no fire points, as it also requires no LOS.

Both follow all the rules for shooting if IIRC (except needing LOS) so why allow one but not the other if no LOS is the only exception given to the normal rules for shooting?

Green Blow Fly wrote:The bombardment comes from a battle cruiser, not the landraider and certainly not the Chapter Master.

G

Chapter Master has to hold the laser steady or else the cruiser will shoot him by accident. I mean, if we're going to bring "real world" arguments into this, you've got a space ship run by brainless computer zombies, in orbit, firing a gun the size of a schoolbus at a spot a little bit over 30 meters away from you. Considering the occasional breathless lack of sophistication of Imperial tech, that schoolbus could be aimed by a telescope with a cross drawn on it, for all you know.

Yeah, I'd hold still if I was pointing the laser, too. Wouldn't stop me from crapping my pants, though.

Marius Xerxes wrote:Sadly, Fluff is nice.. but shouldnt be used as a basis for rules interpretation beyond whats written within the rule itself.

If Psychic Shooting Attacks from Eldar that require no LOS (IIRC they have some? Could be wrong..I dont have the Codex at work) have been accecpted as being able to fire from a Falcon with no fire points, where is the precident to say that a Special Rule (Orbital Bombardment) cannot also be used from inside a vehicle with no fire points, as it also requires no LOS.

Both follow all the rules for shooting if IIRC (except needing LOS) so why allow one but not the other if no LOS is the only exception given to the normal rules for shooting?

Beware the man of straw!

The Eldar FAQ does not exempt any of the Eldar "shooting" psychic powers from needing a fire point; the shooting powers include Destructor, Mind War, and Eldritch Storm.

The main rulebook FAQ allows NON-psychic shooting attack powers to be used from inside a vehicle:

FAQ wrote:
Q. Can a model use a psychic power that is not a Psychic Shooting Attack if it is embarked in a transport vehicle?

A. Yes. If the power requires line of sight, this is still worked out from the vehicle’s fire points (this will count as one model shooting through that fire point if the power is used in the
Shooting phase).

If the psychic power does not require line of sight and has a range or an area of effect that is normally measured from the model using it, these are measured from the vehicle’s hull, as explained in the Embarking section on page 66.

So why does OB require LOS?

G

*air

Frgsinwntr, there is no fire point on a LR, so you cannot use it from inside.

The Orbital Bombardment is listed as Barage Ordnance and in the rule book it says Ordnance can be fire with no line of sight so you can fire it from a Land Raider. Also why would you need a fire point as the bombardment comes from a ship somewhere and not the Land Raider?

This needs to be faqed just liked the nob biker and feels no pain.

Without a Fire Point, no model may fire from the inside of a vehicle, unless it is open-topped.

There is no need for a FAQ to answer what is clearly answered in the rulebook already.

The Chapter Master isn't firing the gun on the space ship is.

"Calling down an orbital bombardment otherwise counts as firing a ranged weapon.."

Seems that the rules disagree with your opinion.

I'm gonna go with the rules.

I don't get it, do people not read the whole thread before posting, just the most recent post in it, thankfully Trekari ducked in and sorted out this massive mess.

Everyone keeps claiming it's a power, it may well be, but the rules tell you that it functions EXACTLY like firing a weapon, forget that it's coming from a ship in orbit, forget that it's an ability, when it comes to using it on someone the rules tell you you are effectively firing a mortar.

Because you are firing a weapon, you will need a fire point to use it from inside a vehicle, you will count as moving for the purpose of firing it if the vehicle moves.