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I don't see how any static unit will be charged and killed by turn 2, since units can be screened from assaults, and there may be more static units than Nob Bike units to make assaults.

The more I look at this, the more it seems that the best way to deal with this unit is to pin it down, which an Eldar army shouldn't have difficulty doing with their access to pinning weapons.

Actually D Cannons sound like a good idea. They ignore cover if you fire indirect, they sit at the back of your army. He won't be able to charge them and they will likely be out of LOS. Once again doom and guide. They can instant kill and always wound on 2's. I think the answer isn't killing these guys with shooting. The answer is whittling them down until a unit like scorpions or banshees can finish them off or at least tie them up for one combat and then finish them off the second combat. A fortuned squad of dire avengers with diresword and shimmershield with defend severely neuter a squad of Nob Bikers.

Green Blow Fly wrote:
That's not how Mob Rule works. They are Ld7 base, and most biker units don't exceed 7 or 8 models because it becomes retardedly overkill at that point.

Actually the typical list features two squads of ten.

G

The Eldar are a sneaky race and creating an aluring target for the nob bikers may not be a bad idea. Static shooty units like Reapers can do alot of damage, remember theres still the rest of the ork army to kill. Others have said that they will be a target and will be destroyed in turn 2, good let them come. Wraithguard was also mentioned as a bad idea. What if they provided a screen for the Reapers and tied up the nob bikers in cc. Ok that seems unlikely that they will just cruise in with Wraithguard near by, right? Well, keep the Wraithguard next to a transport for quick, well timed support. Then fly in Jetseer & co. and finish them. Even if you don't like this approch I think using a tempting target that the Orks know they'll have to deal with later , if they don't sweep them with their bikers, will give you a controled enviornment to kill them without losing important squads. Pinning, also gives you more options for timely reaction.

Danny Internets wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:

Actually the typical list features two squads of ten.

G

Most of the lists I've seen floating around the internet seem to have 2 squads of 7 (8 with the Warboss) at 1750, but perhaps it's different in the major tournament scene. Ork players are few and far between here so I don't have much to go on other than what I've been reading.

If you see them in squad sizes of less than 10, then they aren't fearless, and you can tank shock them repeatedly until they break.

The striking scorpion phoenix lord would be a good choice since he has a lot attacks, a high WS and a S8 power fist. Of course he is going to die most likely in the first round of a close combat. I think a couple of wraithlords would be useful as well since they can insta-kill the warbosses. If you could use wraithguard so that they can shoot the nobs that would also help. One farseer with doom and guide on a jetbike as well along with a spirit seer. The fire dragons as mentioned would also be useful too. I would probably field guardians mounted on jetbikes as a troop choice so they can play keep away from the nobs.

G

G

Karandas and large squads of scorps are probably the best assault option. Throw in a Avatar for fearlessness extra CC ability.

By running away
example
= Eldar Person
= Ork Nob Biker


->
"oh "
->

So, how about Shining Spears?

A full unit would get 4 S6 AP4 shots and a S8 AP4 shot in the shooting phase, 8 S6 Power Weapon attacks and 3 S8 Power Weapon attacks on the charge, then disengage using Hit and Run into dangerous terrain using Skilled Rider if the Nobz don't break.

Throw them into combat with Nob Bikers accompanied by a Wraithlord, and maybe through a Doom in there as well and I think there might be something.

If the Nobz do break, they'll get rolled up by the Shining Spears' high Initiative. If they don't, then the Wraithlord can hold them there for another pass by the Shinging Spears.

DonkeyCannon wrote:Actually D Cannons sound like a good idea. They ignore cover if you fire indirect, they sit at the back of your army. He won't be able to charge them and they will likely be out of LOS. Once again doom and guide. They can instant kill and always wound on 2's. I think the answer isn't killing these guys with shooting. The answer is whittling them down until a unit like scorpions or banshees can finish them off or at least tie them up for one combat and then finish them off the second combat. A fortuned squad of dire avengers with diresword and shimmershield with defend severely neuter a squad of Nob Bikers.

Dcannons only instakill on 6's right? Then they're useless. They don't ignore cover, because nob bikers self-generate their cover saves, either through turbo-boosting for a 3+ or their own, natural, permanent 4+. They also only have a 24" range.

Squad of scorpions, full strength on the charge: 36 attacks, 18 hits, 6 wounds, 3 saves, 1.5 feel no pain. No models removed. Orks strike back with at least 16 power fist attacks. Hit with 2/3, wound with 5/6, for approximately 10 kills. Scorpions gone. Doom helps, but not enough.

Banshees are similar. A bit more wounds through ignoring feel no pain, but still nowhere near enough the number of wounds needed to kill models.

Nurglitch wrote:So, how about Shining Spears?

A full unit would get 4 S6 AP4 shots and a S8 AP4 shot in the shooting phase, 8 S6 Power Weapon attacks and 3 S8 Power Weapon attacks on the charge, then disengage using Hit and Run into dangerous terrain using Skilled Rider if the Nobz don't break.

Throw them into combat with Nob Bikers accompanied by a Wraithlord, and maybe through a Doom in there as well and I think there might be something.

If the Nobz do break, they'll get rolled up by the Shining Spears' high Initiative. If they don't, then the Wraithlord can hold them there for another pass by the Shinging Spears.

Shooting likely does nothing, but we'll be generous and give them one model. S6 power weapons likely do nothing of value, because you're not instakilling. OF the 3 S8 power weapon attacks, once to hit, to wound, and invulnerable saves are figured in, you've killed probably one model.

Nobs strike back with powerfists and wipe squad.

Green Blow Fly wrote:The striking scorpion phoenix lord would be a good choice since he has a lot attacks, a high WS and a S8 power fist. Of course he is going to die most likely in the first round of a close combat. I think a couple of wraithlords would be useful as well since they can insta-kill the warbosses. If you could use wraithguard so that they can shoot the nobs that would also help. One farseer with doom and guide on a jetbike as well along with a spirit seer. The fire dragons as mentioned would also be useful too. I would probably field guardians mounted on jetbikes as a troop choice so they can play keep away from the nobs.

Actually, I think his best bet is to partner up with some fortuned warlocks. Warlocks base as many models as possible, in particular the powerfists, while Karandas bases a regular nob. He does the damage, the warlocks try not to die, and Eldar win on combat res. The big challenge is getting them into position to charge.

Trying to whittle them down with regular shooting is something of a waste of time. Assuming a 10-man nob biker squad, you need a way to reliably cause 44 wounds on T5 before a single model is removed as a casualty. If for some reason you can ignore the FNP, you need a way to cause 22 wounds on T5.

If you're going to shoot at the bikers, about the only way to do anything besides watching the ork player abuse the wound allocation rules is to use S8 shooting. Lots of s8 shooting, because you've got to get past the 4+ or 3+ cover save.

Similar problem in assault: you've got to do S8 power weapon/fist attacks, or you're doing nothing to remove models, and will probably be wiped by the sheer number of power klaw attacks coming back at you.

Some of you probably don't believe me, and are going to continue to argue that weight of numbers will be able to work. But I'm telling you that the only reliable way to deal with nob bikers is through massed S8 attacks. For Eldar, this means fire dragons. Nothing else puts out the volume of fire needed. Assuming they're not guided, a you need 4 BS3 Bright Lances to kill a single nob biker.

In assault, the options really boil down to two things: Wraithlords and Karandas. Both need another unit to charge with them, so that they can soak up powerfist wounds.

Otherwise, unless you're tossing your ENTIRE army against the bikers, you're probably going to die.

Put it this way: 3 full bladestorming squads of dire avengers/w defend shooting at a doomed 10-man biker squad.

90 shots. 60 hits. 5/9 will wound, so approximately 33 wounds. 16 saves, 8 feel no pain...9 wounds total. No models have been removed. Ork warbikes multicharge all three units.

Dire Avengers Strike first: 33 attacks, 17 hits, 3 wounds. 1 armor save, 1 feel no paint, 1 wound inflicted. Still haven't killed a model. Orks strike back. 16 attacks at I4, 11 hits, 7 wounds, 3 failed saves. Power Klaws strike at I1, with 16 attacks, 11 hits, 9 wounds, 6 failed saves.

All dire avenger squads either take 9 more saves (if there's an avatar nearby), or they test LD at -9

But hey...Eldar are nowhere near as screwed as Necrons are. So rejoice!

D-canons are useless.
Shining Spears are expensive and suffer from TLOS.
Harlequins will need something to soak wounds (or failing that, Fortune) and Doom upon Noobz.
Dragons. 4 Draons kill 1 Noob per shoot. If this is enough or not - decided it yourself.
WL can do some good but are vulnerable themselves, are relatively expensive and eat out HS slots.

Centurian99 wrote:
Banshees are similar. A bit more wounds through ignoring feel no pain, but still nowhere near enough the number of wounds needed to kill models.

By the way, this is the exact same scenario facing the Harlies. The only thing the harlies have going for them is higher WS still needing 4's against Waaagh Banner Nobs though, and 5+ Invulnerable saves.

A decent way of getting around the 3+ cover saves is to sacrifice a unit in front of them, like a squad of rangers or some guardians. They charge in, wipe/break the squad, then sit around. They still get their self-generated 4+ save, but at least it's better than 3+. You did lose a squad, but hopefully you've lured them into a poor position.

whitedragon wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:
Banshees are similar. A bit more wounds through ignoring feel no pain, but still nowhere near enough the number of wounds needed to kill models.

By the way, this is the exact same scenario facing the Harlies. The only thing the harlies have going for them is higher WS still needing 4's against Waaagh Banner Nobs though, and 5+ Invulnerable saves.

Actually this is why you take Banshees backed by Yriel and a Farseer throwing Doom on a unit. This will kill enough bikers to give you the assualt resolution you are looking for. The banshee squad should have the counter assualt ability also.

A farseer with Doom IMO is almost a standard issue to help out with all the 5th edition mixes of armies.

sabote wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:
Banshees are similar. A bit more wounds through ignoring feel no pain, but still nowhere near enough the number of wounds needed to kill models.

By the way, this is the exact same scenario facing the Harlies. The only thing the harlies have going for them is higher WS still needing 4's against Waaagh Banner Nobs though, and 5+ Invulnerable saves.

Actually this is why you take Banshees backed by Yriel and a Farseer throwing Doom on a unit. This will kill enough bikers to give you the assualt resolution you are looking for. The banshee squad should have the counter assualt ability also.

A farseer with Doom IMO is almost a standard issue to help out with all the 5th edition mixes of armies.

Why waste the banshees? Banshees will do nothing against the bikers, even if they're doomed.

Assuming countercharge. 30 attacks, 15 hit, 3 wound (generous), RR, 2 more wound. Five wounds! Impressive...whoops, nevermind, orks get a 5+ invuln....make that 3 wounds.

All banshees die.

Wow, good idea.

Deadshane1 wrote:

sabote wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:
Banshees are similar. A bit more wounds through ignoring feel no pain, but still nowhere near enough the number of wounds needed to kill models.

By the way, this is the exact same scenario facing the Harlies. The only thing the harlies have going for them is higher WS still needing 4's against Waaagh Banner Nobs though, and 5+ Invulnerable saves.

Actually this is why you take Banshees backed by Yriel and a Farseer throwing Doom on a unit. This will kill enough bikers to give you the assualt resolution you are looking for. The banshee squad should have the counter assualt ability also.

A farseer with Doom IMO is almost a standard issue to help out with all the 5th edition mixes of armies.

Why waste the banshees? Banshees will do nothing against the bikers, even if they're doomed.

Assuming countercharge. 30 attacks, 15 hit, 3 wound (generous), RR, 2 more wound. Five wounds! Impressive...whoops, nevermind, orks get a 5+ invuln....make that 3 wounds.

All banshees die.

Wow, good idea.

Usually ends up with 2 wounds from the exarch
5 from the banshees
4 from yriel
2 save and 9 die

Has not failed me yet. So yeah impressive. Is there more too it like setting up the unit for a charge and wearing it down a bit. Yeah but thats the essential part.

sabote wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

sabote wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:
Banshees are similar. A bit more wounds through ignoring feel no pain, but still nowhere near enough the number of wounds needed to kill models.

By the way, this is the exact same scenario facing the Harlies. The only thing the harlies have going for them is higher WS still needing 4's against Waaagh Banner Nobs though, and 5+ Invulnerable saves.

Actually this is why you take Banshees backed by Yriel and a Farseer throwing Doom on a unit. This will kill enough bikers to give you the assualt resolution you are looking for. The banshee squad should have the counter assualt ability also.

A farseer with Doom IMO is almost a standard issue to help out with all the 5th edition mixes of armies.

Why waste the banshees? Banshees will do nothing against the bikers, even if they're doomed.

Assuming countercharge. 30 attacks, 15 hit, 3 wound (generous), RR, 2 more wound. Five wounds! Impressive...whoops, nevermind, orks get a 5+ invuln....make that 3 wounds.

All banshees die.

Wow, good idea.

Has not failed me yet. So yeah impressive.

You're beating the odds then....BY A LOT. You're arguing against numbers here. Those are the flat out averages of a result against Nob Bikers. Banshees are NOT a reliable way to handle them. The only thing that they could do in the fight you illustrated above is possibly help keep the Special characters alive.

I.E. - I'll beleive it when I see it, but I dont think I will.

Besides the fact you're dedicating both of your HQ's to kill a single unit of Nob Bikers...on the off chance they actually survive, there are still another whole unit for them to deal with. Nob Biker armies typically have two full units and two warbosses.

Banshees are not a viable attack against Nob Biker armies...despite what your "results" say.

sabote wrote:

Usually ends up with 2 wounds from the exarch
5 from the banshees
4 from yriel
2 save and 9 die

Has not failed me yet. So yeah impressive. Is there more too it like setting up the unit for a charge and wearing it down a bit. Yeah but thats the essential part.

9 wounds? Thats NONE dead. (and a more realistic average of saved wounds would be 4 out of 11, not 2)

Each nob has two wounds with a different weapon layout for optimum wound dispersal.

Your data is in error.

Deadshane1 wrote:

sabote wrote:

Usually ends up with 2 wounds from the exarch
5 from the banshees
4 from yriel
2 save and 9 die

Has not failed me yet. So yeah impressive. Is there more too it like setting up the unit for a charge and wearing it down a bit. Yeah but thats the essential part.

9 wounds? Thats NONE dead.

Each nob has two wounds with a different weapon layout.

Your data is in error.

No kidding really..... I am glad we have you around to set things straight....... who would have guessed 9 wounds from a power weapon that a ork did not save from kept it around.... than who would have guessed that they did not have to pull whole models off?.... add to the combat resolution at the end......

but hey thanks for the information

Eldar really do not have any good units to take out Nob Bikers.

Fire Dragons are a poor choice since they shoot once, and kill a few, then what? They die. They will not break with a boss pole (I have never seen an ork unit break yet).

I played against a couple of small squads of Nob Bikers at the Baltimore GT and I had 3 Exorcists with a lot of stenght 8 AP1 weapons and I could not bring them down.

What you also need to do is factor in that they will have lootaz that will be shooting up any true threats to the Nob Bikers as well.

You need combat rez, and something that can take a lot of power klaw attacks. I would think the best way to do it would be to hit the bikers with doom, and a full squad of fortuned Harlequins, and even then you have to get lucky.

sabote wrote:
but hey thanks for the information

No problem, thats why I'm here, to help out!

Just to finish up, since we're talking also about combat res....

say 5 ork powerfists since you didnt kill anyone (including the warboss) Thats 16 or 17 powerfist attacks hitting your banshees on 3's assuming you charged. I'm thinking you probably dont want your characters with 4+ invulns facing off against that many powerfists if you want to keep them around, so....


I think thats enough to handle any sort of combat res that we're wondering about, especially after the basic attacks that also hit you on 3's and wound on 3's.

Your bashee gambit is no good here, move along.

Blackmoor wrote:Eldar really do not have any good units to take out Nob Bikers.

Fire Dragons are a poor choice since they shoot once, and kill a few, then what? They die. They will not break with a boss pole (I have never seen an ork unit break yet).

I played against a couple of small squads of Nob Bikers at the Baltimore GT and I had 3 Exorcists with a lot of stenght 8 AP1 weapons and I could not bring them down.

What you also need to do is factor in that they will have lootaz that will be shooting up any true threats to the Nob Bikers as well.

You need combat rez, and something that can take a lot of power klaw attacks. I would think the best way to do it would be to hit the bikers with doom, and a full squad of fortuned Harlequins, and even then you have to get lucky.

Yeah thats pretty much it you have to get lucky

And like Green Blow Fly said. If you set up an Eldar list to beat Nob bikers which will depend on luck and skill. You dont have a list that is very balanced and will suffer against many other armies.

Deadshane1 wrote:

sabote wrote:
but hey thanks for the information

No problem, thats why I'm here, to help out!

Just to finish up, since we're talking also about combat res....

say 5 ork powerfists since you didnt kill anyone (including the warboss) Thats 16 or 17 powerfist attacks hitting your banshees on 3's assuming you charged. I'm thinking you probably dont want your characters with 4+ invulns facing off against that many powerfists if you want to keep them around, so....


I think thats enough to handle any sort of combat res that we're wondering about, especially after the basic attacks that also hit you on 3's and wound on 3's.

Your bashee gambit is no good here, move along.

If it had not worked for me in multiple games against them I would possibly agree. However it has worked. So it will stay. But again thanks for the insight.

Again... no ones mentioned fireprism (take two, be happy) or pathfinders.

A farseer (yes specifically designed against bikers) with mindwar (and doom) with some banshees can easily pick off the painboy -the models LD is 7. Its his mind (but reguardless, a stright 8-9ld vs ld 10 rolloff isnt that bad). Either way, that lil unit picks off nobz or charges into his other units of they boost away, while keeping it doomed. If they get charged the banshees are 100% effective. They will die even more but 10banshees will die anyway, point is they will cause the same amount of wounds on charge or counercharge.

I run a farseer with harlies so its nearly the same (more expensive but I6 so they still go first albeit with less attacks than a charge) - point being you can happily build a balanced army.

Pathfinders. Pinning, can quite happily cause ap1-2 wounds. Ive been dealing with 4+ cover saves since the start of 5ed.

A wraithlord. With wraithsword. How many will he insta kill? (I assume the nobz are I4 on charge?) Hes worth 110pts with a shruicannon which is just a nice lil weapon, if he kills two then thats his points there and done. Power claws wound on 3's against T8 or is it 2's? Yes he will probably die but he will be dangerous.


Prisms.. str 9 ap 2. Thats gotta kill atleast one on a sucessful hit (i.e doesnt scatter lots badly) - thats near enough a prisms cost (Now i also assume these nobs are worth 80pts/model?). When it gets down to a few boss and nobz that will fit under one blast plate then you link ur two prisms and vap the boss too! Or just have ur wraithlord direct his CC attacks against the IC warboos and Easily deal ur points in damage - could get lucky with that invunerable though...

Can a nob biker squad still score without a warboos (but after being fielded with one?)

Razerous wrote:Again... no ones mentioned fireprism (take two, be happy) or pathfinders.

A farseer (yes specifically designed against bikers) with mindwar (and doom) with some banshees can easily pick off the painboy -the models LD is 7. Its his mind (but reguardless, a stright 8-9ld vs ld 10 rolloff isnt that bad). Either way, that lil unit picks off nobz or charges into his other units of they boost away, while keeping it doomed. If they get charged the banshees are 100% effective. They will die even more but 10banshees will die anyway, point is they will cause the same amount of wounds on charge or counercharge.

I run a farseer with harlies so its nearly the same (more expensive but I6 so they still go first albeit with less attacks than a charge) - point being you can happily build a balanced army.

Pathfinders. Pinning, can quite happily cause ap1-2 wounds. Ive been dealing with 4+ cover saves since the start of 5ed.

A wraithlord. With wraithsword. How many will he insta kill? (I assume the nobz are I4 on charge?) Hes worth 110pts with a shruicannon which is just a nice lil weapon, if he kills two then thats his points there and done. Power claws wound on 3's against T8 or is it 2's? Yes he will probably die but he will be dangerous.


Prisms.. str 9 ap 2. Thats gotta kill atleast one on a sucessful hit (i.e doesnt scatter lots badly) - thats near enough a prisms cost (Now i also assume these nobs are worth 80pts/model?). When it gets down to a few boss and nobz that will fit under one blast plate then you link ur two prisms and vap the boss too! Or just have ur wraithlord direct his CC attacks against the IC warboos and Easily deal ur points in damage - could get lucky with that invunerable though...

Can a nob biker squad still score without a warboos (but after being fielded with one?)

I use 2 prisms and also a bike council

I think that, without going into alot of detail, you'll need a sacrafical unit. Avatar, Wraithlord,Wraithguard,Warlocks on jetbikes, Phoenix Lords,Fire Prisms etc. are all units that can put a dent in the Nob Bikers. Throw the sacafical unit at them to tie them up and then a combo of the above list. In the mean time you can be sneaking around with lesser units, as the attention is on the beefier ones, to takeout those lootas or whatever. The Eldar are still faster and pinning can be key.

Fire prisms may work, but you're still depending on the bikers failing a 4+ cover or even a 3+ turbo-boost cover save. And essentially, you get one or two chances to shoot, because assuming that the nob biker player isn't a moron, he's going to identify whatever small chances you've got of killing his bikers and prioritize accordingly.

Mindwarring the painboy may work...but you'll also essentially throw away your farseer in the next turn. You've made the problem slightly better, because you've removed the FNP save, but you still need to cause 10 wounds on T5 after a 4+ or 3+ cover save before another model is removed as a casualty.

There's only a couple of combos I'd consider to be halfway reliable. One would be a full 10-man warlock squad, preferably mounted on a jetbike, but as long as they can get the charge, it'll work. You end up with a unit that essentially ties up and grinds away at the nob bikers (as long as the warlocks are fortuned, natch). Being able to win largely depends on how many models you can catch under destructor templates. THe warlocks also need to be enhanced.

If you want to decisively win against the nob bikers, you've pretty much got two options: attach Karandas to that warlock unit. Fortuned, the warlocks soak powerklaw attacks, while Karandas strikes with his silly number of S8 powerfist attacks. You should manage to win this one on combat res, after Karandas guts the nob bikerz.

The other option is to set up a 3-wraithlord charge on the nob bikers. 3 wraithlords with wraithswords should be able to do enough damage to the nobz that they'll lose the combat. A sacrificial unit to absorb powerklaw attacks will also help.

What I'm seeing is simply that there are only a specific, limited number of Eldar Builds that have a prayer. Serious competitive lists will have to include at least one of those elements.

With one exception, I think that armies need to plan on dealing with nob bikerz in hand to hand, which creates some specific build requirements. THe exception to that is Tau, and I'm picturing a rediculously specific build that can take on nob bikerz and win.

For every other army, I think the only reliable way to take down nob bikers is in hand to hand.

IG is totally screwed against the nob bikerz. 3 demolishers and 3 hellhounds may, possibly, be able to deal with one squad. Against two, I simply don't see any viable method for guard to deal with them.

Razerous, I mentioned fire prisms on the first page.

Cent, the fire dragons would be shooting immediately before a mind war and jetlock charge, so hopefully most of the ork army will be tied up in CC and the dragons will be able to slip away.

Also, I don't think soaking powerfist attacks is really all that acheivable with large models like wraithlords involved in the combat. Remember a Nob squad will have a crap ton of powerfists, and with pile in and the Wraithlord's huge base, that will be alot of powerfists able to strike.

As with warlocks and karandras, that works out a little better because of karandras' base size. Ideally you'd want to have him charge a model (as Moz suggested) far way from the powerfists, and have the warlocks tie up as many other models as they can to prevent Nob pile in.

whitedragon wrote:Razerous, I mentioned fire prisms on the first page.

My bad

This talk of sacraficial units.. if it kills enough points to make up its cost then it is a 100% effective counter to the nobz. Speed bumping guardians, granted, wont kill thier points worth.

Two teams of council with enhance & possible destructer (w/o bikes) with two farseers with mindwar/doom/forune (well one can just have doom & fortune) - screening or mixed with 3 wraithlords with shruikens and swords. Maybe take out one lord and stick a prism in the centre where it sudnt be able to be charged. Add in some troops -200pts worth (atleast one cheap squad kept in reserves for as long as poss) and youve got a 1500pt list that should be able to beat a 1500pt nob biker list. Maybe.

Personally I dont like making point-dense units as the ork nob bikers just do it better than any other unit (bar, possibly, tyranid warriors).

In my professional opinion I would suggest placing your head between your legs and kissing your ass goodbye.

Eldar already had it bad in 5th, if there are going to be a lot of Nob Biker armies around they will become a army for diehards.