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CaptKaruthors wrote:All those lists are something that can allow you to compete with them...but your outlook is 50/50 at best.

So a 50/50 chance against the most uberly broken list ever is... balance, right? Even chances is balance, right? In addition, I give those lists a better than 50/50 chance. Assault Terminators in Land Raiders have better than even odds by virtue of being as mobile and harder to kill.

Also with those lists...you may beat the Nob Biker list, but get killed by something else your army can't handle because you tooled up too much to deal with them...yet the same isn't true for someone that is playing a list with Nob Bikers in it.

Jetseer Eldar don't do well universally? The only army I know of killing them with ease is... well, none really.

Nob Bikers don't do well against drop Crisis Tau (no cover saves) or Land Raider Terminators (6s to hit and 4-5 to glance = fail).

The biggest frustration for me is that the Ork codex has an answer to everything in the game....everything. No other codex does. That should be a sign, don't you think? IMHO, an idiot can with with an Ork army now.

But not all in one list. This makes them arguably the best codex, but they can only field so many elements in one army. Lists like Nob Bikers are only unbeatable if you firmly believe they are.

Nidzilla is far, far, far form a gimmick list, and nob bikers arent a gimmick either unless you consider a gimmick crushing your opponant.

A gimmick lists requires a tirck to work. There is no trick with Nidzilla or Nob Bikers other than being statistically superior to nearly every other army.

Also, out of curiousty, how do you think ironclad dreads beat nob bikers? The bikers should shread the Irondclads.

Well lets see,

6 ironclads all somehow charge the same squad giving you 12 hits, 10 wounds, 7 dead bikers.

Boss causes one pen, one glance on a single dread, and the klaws each average .25 for a glance and .25 for a pen, so with 3 of them you probably get one of each.

Yeah, I guess you are right, if you can somehow pull of that crazy charge you win, if the nobs charge you on their terms (only hitting say, three ironclads at once per nob squad) which they should as they are faster, you get hosed.

And demon hunters waste jetseer eldar, but then hey, they aren't really in the metagame are they!

So a 50/50 chance against the most uberly broken list ever is... balance, right? Even chances is balance, right? In addition, I give those lists a better than 50/50 chance. Assault Terminators in Land Raiders have better than even odds by virtue of being as mobile and harder to kill.

I disagree. Additionally, while your army may be able to kill Nob bikers...what then do you do vs. other lists? I'm not saying the army can't be beat. It's just that there is no real reliable way to do it effectively enough without risking exposure to being beaten by another list type. The same isn't true for an Ork army that has Nob Bikers in it.

Jetseer Eldar don't do well universally? The only army I know of killing them with ease is... well, none really.

No actually, I don't think they do well universally compared to Nob Biker lists. Any army with enough CC to beat them on Combat Res...or tarpit them with a fearless unit can easily deal with them. None of their weapons ignore armor saves either.

Nob Bikers don't do well against drop Crisis Tau (no cover saves) or Land Raider Terminators (6s to hit and 4-5 to glance = fail).

Again, I'm not saying that the army can't be beat if you tool up for it, but what happens when that army runs into a horde list, or a list with pie plates? The same can't be said for a Nob Biker army. They have all the tools in their list to deal with everything and fall short no where.

But not all in one list. This makes them arguably the best codex, but they can only field so many elements in one army. Lists like Nob Bikers are only unbeatable if you firmly believe they are.

Again, I didn't say the army was unbeatable...I have beaten it. What I'm saying is that Orks is a point and click army because they don't have to consider covering weaknesses in their army...because quite frankly there is none in that codex.

Capt K

My point is, people are beginning to jump on the 'Broken' bandwagon. The army isn't broken. It's got a couple gimmicks (mobility, wound resolution, FNP). Beyond that it's just another tough army. People with power lists will adapt and overcome. People without power lists will just keep losing like they did before anyways.

I would say that space marines can make an 'all comers' list that has a 50/50 against nob bikers no problem. Since it is the first of the 5th edition books, and since Robin Cruddance is probably reading dakka with cold sweats, trying to figure out how to make an entirely shooty army actually be good in 5th edition, I'm betting that any well built IG army in May is going to be able to table a nob biker army. In fact, I bet Phil Kelly walked into Robin's office and said "hey mate, I created a monster, please help me kill it.... here's how."

I think we just have to wait for some of these older armies to get updated. The good money is on IG coming out, torturing nob bikers, and seeing ork players revert to one nob biker unit, or two small ones, and some more different units.

Unfortunately, the nature of games workshop, means the waiting game can be a long game to play.


EDIT: to make this relevant to the topic... I think Eldar's best bet is to wait for nob bikers to become extinct. Properly built space marines, good CSM players, and 5th edition IG players will probably make that happen.

Centurian99 wrote:
I understand what you're trying to do. I'm simply tellling you that it won't work, 90% of the time with the lists that most people are fielding. At best, you end up playing for the draw. If you want to WIN against nob bikers, you have to have a list that's capable of the three things I've said before...massed S8 attacks (that would be at least 15-20 shooting, or about a third of that from assault), be able to ignore the FNP, and/or be negate to avoid cover/armor.

I get what you are saying, however, If I wanted to beat nob bikers in army selection, I'd just take SM's with a couple of assault terminator squads in LRCs. heck, I think I'd just point up the list, and tell my opponent that he is gonna lose. No need to play at that point, because the nobs are soo screwed at that point.

boy, that was a fun game.

I play for the challenge, and to learn new things. I'd MUCH rather take what I have, and see if I can use movement, terrain and good ol' fashioned luck to see if I can beat the mean orky bike menz. Especially since I have no interest AT ALL in building a list to beat just ONE type of army, because it's ultimately weak against too many other things in that case.

heck, even the jetseer council, while rather resilient, is still vulnerable to being tarpitted all game themlseves.


HOWEVER, on another hand, I MIGHT consider running something along the lines of:

2-3 full size dragon squads in waveserpents

backed by

2-3 dire avenger squads in falcons

same advantages as before, but then the nobs are forced to either chase waveserpents to avoid 20-30 melta shots, or to chase after the much more resilient falcons to prevent them from scoring. This list has the advantage of also being a decent list against a number of other armies, without being obscenely outbalanced.

My point is, people are beginning to jump on the 'Broken' bandwagon. The army isn't broken. It's got a couple gimmicks (mobility, wound resolution, FNP). Beyond that it's just another tough army. People with power lists will adapt and overcome. People without power lists will just keep losing like they did before anyways.

I am with you on the fact the army is not unbeatable, it is broken though (by broken I mean extremly unbalanced), but how do you think of it as a gimmick army? A gimmick army is an all infiltrating force or an army that has to have X,Y,Z happen in order to have a win, otherwise it loses.

An army that relies on two units that are more than good in 99% of game situations against 99% of potential opponants is not a gimmick.

A Gimmick Army is a one trick pony that dies to its counter. In defense of the Nobs, they can justifiably become a two trick pony, grading a B+ in the assault and a B+ shooting, respectively. However, Assault Terminators smash them in combat, and Crisis Tau smash them in shooting. Both of those are gimmick armies as well, by my definition.

The whole gimmicky aspect lies in your last sentence: "two units". Two units comprise the entirety of the army, kill them and smoke whatever's leftover. Raider Assault Terminators can do it, as can Crisis Tau.

As to the 99% fallacy, well, when the top 5 armies are Nob Bikers, I might pay more attention.

Okay, I really have to ask, how do Tau Crisis Suits smash nob bikers in shooting. Broadsides with markerlight support...That's a no-brainer. Crisis Suits? I must be missing something.

Centurian99 wrote:

focusedfire wrote:What happens if you tank shock the grots?

You're quite focused on Grots. Re-rollable LD7 works around 80% of the time. Besides, you're more likely to see a single squad of boyz

Reason I'm focused on the backfield. I mostly play Tau. When I play my eldar, I play them like Tau with really good HtH support. So I take what works with the Tau and try to find an Eldar equivalent. Usually works really well. What I've found from my experience with my Tau is that most Armies are set to rush me very quickly and I end up with just not enough turns to fire with a purely static army.

With fast armies The Tau have to run and its a tactical redeployment for my Eldar. They have to have a place to run to because I want to weaken the nobs before I charge/assault. Usually, I let the opposing player charge in and get close because I have a cheap unit that they can't get around. If he's left something in the back field I need to clear it befor my guys get there.

When facing general builds with only a couple of intermediate fast assaulters and a larger backfield I focus first on the fast stuff first. With the Ork build its backwards and what works so far is clearing the backfield. Then attempt to tarpit them with cheapo units strung out as the heavy stuff repositions. I normally have broadsides castled in the corner with one to two layers of expendables. They focus on one squad of bikers and only that squad. The 2 hammer heads and 2 troops in dev fish are deployed in the middle and the corner and they work on the backfield with marker light support the first turn. Afterwards they work on the same biker squad as the broadsides. Gundrones and crisis team are in revserve. The other crisis team and the 2 commanders are set up supporting either the tanks or broadsides depending on the board. This is what I deploy with 1750pts.

Eldar speed make getting to the backfield easier but the only reliable way to get rid of the coversaves is to HtH. Was playing with idea of if he sets boyz or grots on table edge of a pincered multi shock to try and force them off the board. Kind of a what happens if your tank shocked on the board edge pass the morale test but have nowhere to go but off the edge. This is cheesy, yes. Just working on how the eldar are gonig to lead them on a merry chase.

I am wondering if you had enough eldar skimmers if you could use the Tau fish of fury tactic versus the nobz... that is place your skimmers in a pattern such that the nobz cannot move through them and soak the bikers with shooting. If you have enough skimmers that is going to be a problem in general for the nobs.

G

You would get two turns to shoot, the turn you deployed them and the turn after they are all ripped from the sky. However you may not be able to see over the wrecks to shoot the Nobs before they kill everything else. Mech Eldar was competitive when the rules set had alot of super awesome stuff for it. Now it is alot of expensive transports carrying something not nearly as survivable as a Marine. And even Marines are easy to kill.

The rule books says that skimmers can be burning wrecks with functional anti-grav keeping them afloat. It's a strech

A Gimmick Army is a one trick pony that dies to its counter. In defense of the Nobs, they can justifiably become a two trick pony, grading a B+ in the assault

Surely you jest....

A B+ in assault? Really? What in the nine hells gets an A? And if you give an example put up some stats to back it.

Your idea of a gimmick is unique to you I would say. A gimmick is a trick by definition. A trick, not a rock hard unit that smashes almost anything it hits. There is no trick in that.

Two units is a plus! Four kill points mean you damn near auto win kill points missions. In objective missions with three or two objectives you damn near auto win too, maybe, just maybe with 5 against a super fast army with tons of troops they can run away from you all game to score objectives for the win. But then the gimmick is on the other side of the table.

But oh well, this is just talk and you are welcome to your opinion.

In the demons codex, What about skulltaker and some bloodletters. You have to somhow get a charge in rather than be charged to be really effective.. but they seem to me to do the job.. Alotta str 5 power attacks at I5 with skulltaker taking out the warboss quite reliably. Not too many points. (as in hq cost & points per models nor do you nueter yourself with choice has the herald is 1/2 a hq slot choice.)

Ahh fail. This isnt one of the many generic nob threads but the eldar specific one. Jetseers with concil & mindwar. Stay out of combat for a long as poss picking off the important boyz.

Daemons don't need gimmicks. Any regular Daemon army that includes at least two (preferably three) bloodthirsters and soul grinders (in total) pretty much laughs at nob bikers.

Soul crushers are only vunerable to nobz PK's & the warboss.. its pretty hitty in cc but poor WS. The bloodthirster would need to get a charge off to be able to instant-death the nobz..(Str 7+furious charge) otherwise its a wounds battle & with 4w's & a 3+/4++ @ T6 it could die pretty quick. So scarrbrand or not at all in terms of greater demons.

Razerous wrote:Soul crushers are only vunerable to nobz PK's & the warboss.. its pretty hitty in cc but poor WS. The bloodthirster would need to get a charge off to be able to instant-death the nobz..(Str 7+furious charge) otherwise its a wounds battle & with 4w's & a 3+/4++ @ T6 it could die pretty quick. So scarrbrand or not at all in terms of greater demons.

You've seen Bloodthirsters that DON'T have Unholy Might? I figured evolution had killed all of those off by now.

Razerous wrote:Soul crushers are only vunerable to nobz PK's & the warboss.. its pretty hitty in cc but poor WS. The bloodthirster would need to get a charge off to be able to instant-death the nobz..(Str 7+furious charge) otherwise its a wounds battle & with 4w's & a 3+/4++ @ T6 it could die pretty quick. So scarrbrand or not at all in terms of greater demons.

Unholy might is kind of standard...when you're spending 250 points, an extra 20 to make sure you're at minimum S8 is well worth it.

With fleet, the grinders can get the charge with good maneuvering. Nobs on one grinder = dead grinder. 2 Grinders and a Bloodthirster charging = dead nobs squad.

did I miss something or did the nob bikers lose there STR5 Assault 3 Twin linked weapons?

They do wittle down units before the charge.....

I suck at mathhammer. can someone figure how many wound's a bloodthirster would take from 33 Str5 twin liked shots at BS2

my sucky math has it at 18 hits. 6 wounds which 4 gets saved...so its left with 2 wounds.

so if both units of bikers team up they can statistically take out a thirster? if my math is right.

C99 has the right of it. Khorne Daemons > Nob Bikers. But so is lash chaos, and lots of other stuff. This is a thread about how Eldar stop Nob Bikers. It's been pages since we've seen a new idea. Can we drop the thread?

If someone wants to make a thread about how they think that Nob Bikers (or any unit) are "cheesy", or "gimmicky", (or anything else subjective), they should do so and whoever wants to have that abortion of an argument can go there.

you just added to the argument with the whole...Khorne Daemons > Nob Bikers....comment


now you'll get 10 more posts to disagree.....

Pot meet Kettle.

LOL!

G

Reecius wrote:

A Gimmick Army is a one trick pony that dies to its counter. In defense of the Nobs, they can justifiably become a two trick pony, grading a B+ in the assault

Surely you jest....

A B+ in assault? Really? What in the nine hells gets an A? And if you give an example put up some stats to back it.

Mr. B+, can I introduce you to Mr. A:

40kenthusiast wrote:C99 has the right of it. Khorne Daemons > Nob Bikers.

I'm not running the numbers, but basically Khorne Demons can throw out enough everything-ignoring attacks to make 24 wounds go away. Likewise, especially with Bloodcrusher/Soulgrinder support, they're hard enough to survive the initial onslaught and stay 'stuck in'.

Okay, I really have to ask, how do Tau Crisis Suits smash nob bikers in shooting. Broadsides with markerlight support...That's a no-brainer. Crisis Suits? I must be missing something.

Crisis suits loaded with missiles or plasma and fusion blasters (S8) with markerlight support. Rob the Nobz of their cover saves and negate armor and FNP with AP1-2 and S8 weaponry. Such a small army doesn't have much anti-deep strike footprint so the Tau player should be able to pick quarters an annihilate with impunity. Add in Broadsides/Hammerheads and the Nobz have a bad day.

Nids can take the beat stick to nob bikers... implant attack, stealers with tendrils, CC carnis, Psychic Choir, etc.

G

Reecius wrote:And demon hunters waste jetseer eldar, but then hey, they aren't really in the metagame are they!

Really? How exactly do those Ap 4 Psycannons beat a 3++ Armor save?

Green Blow Fly wrote:Nids can take the beat stick to nob bikers... implant attack, stealers with tendrils, CC carnis, Psychic Choir, etc.

G

Admittedly seeing close combat geared Carnifexes in sufficient quantities to down dual Nob Bikaz is a rare occurrence.

Centurian99 wrote:
Unholy might is kind of standard...when you're spending 250 points, an extra 20 to make sure you're at minimum S8 is well worth it.

Okay 0kay, I missed that upgrade.

To comment, based on the last couple pages, to the OP.. quite well.

Im sorry but when did eldar have access to a complete daemon army?