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I don`t know about others but most people paint caucasian flesh because usually it`s the easiest one to paint as you have quite a few close tones to higlight and darken it.

I tried to paint asian skin tones for my Warzone samurai and after the disaster I went the easy way and painted the GW bronzed flesh.

M.

I always painted some of my SM scouts black, I even painted some ginger as well

I always wanted to do an SS inspired Death Korps of Krieg Army. Just because their fluff struck me as being based on the whole blitzkrieg warfare model. I dont think there would be a problem copying the uniform as long as no nazi iconography was included.

At the end of the day its the iconography that gives it away. I imagine most people wouldnt be able to tell one country's WW2 military uniform from another without the iconography.

I'd say ultimately, the line is more draw with your target playgroup. I remember back in the day, a blood axe ork nazi themed army. It was pretty interesting, and the guy wasnt a jerk about it and such. It was just a theme.

*shrug* I cant be bothered to get worked up about some german theme, so long as the guy isnt believing that crap, when we all play armies that are willing to commit genocide of races and kill whole planets of people(Imperium), or take slaves for torture and fun and games(dark eldar), or takes whole swathes of people and boils them down for chemical stimulants(like the Emperor'sChildren did during the Horus Heresy).

BigToof wrote:You could just as easily paint a big penis on the top of all your tanks, or do other stuff, but most people don't, because they realize where the lines are, and they don't cross them.

Well...most people don't.

I still think that soulgrinder with the horsecock was fething stupid.

Anyway, I'd paint a couple of black guys if I had an IG army, but all my guys are either blue or green so I don't worry about it.

Techboss wrote:I'm actually surprised more people don't bitch about everything in the fluff and model painting being depicted as caucasian. I don't ever recall seeing a non-white IG model.

It doesn't come up that much anymore because it is a dead horse, much like female space marines.

The only reason people haven't seen that many 40k figs painted other than white is most likely because almost everyone who plays the game are doing their minis up as white guys. Personal choice of the owning player IMHO, simple as that.
In the late 80's and early 90's, Slamanders were always depicted as white in any picture of them without helmets. I think it was in 3rd they became black skinned.
As far as 40k representations of the Nazis, Muslim radicals, or whatever other group composed of people that are living proof there are more horses asses than horses goes, I'd leave the table if any of that was set in front of me.
I play the game for escapism and relaxation, not to be deluged with political commentary or half assed attempts at poor taste humor.

I don't have issues with non-GW-canon skin tones.

However, I don't much like RL iconography, particularly RL hate iconography in 40k.

So if you want to paint Mordians in black uniforms, be my guest. But if you start slapping red armbands with swastikas on them, that's NOT COOL.

Kind of like that SOB who painted the Nazi Armored Company.

If you're doing ethnic colored Orks / Guard, cool. But if you're stereoptyping to offend, again, NOT COOL.

Pseudo-terrorist Guardsmen / irregulars? Not a good match with how the Guard Codex is structured. Perhaps if LatD were still around. And again, the test is whether the intent is to offend. If so, NOT COOL.

I'm actually surprised more people don't bitch about everything in the fluff and model painting being depicted as caucasian. I don't ever recall seeing a non-white IG model.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Kind of like that SOB who painted the Nazi Armored Company.

They were NOT nazis. Obviously. Not. Nazis. Guy who made them said so himself.

So if you want to paint Mordians in black uniforms

Um... Nazis didn't wear black as a field uniform... And even then, not every German was a Nazi...

Oh, Stonefox, whats with all the "laugh you lose" smileys?

Astalado wrote:I have begun some work on some new army concepts that are different from the norms of traditional paint way. The question is this, as long as you keep the concept real and feel of the army true to to the concept, where is the line drawn?

Examples:

IG: Mordians painted black with red and white details to look more like a certain unit from germany.

IG or Orcs: Painted to represent modern day Gang Bangers. using ethnic colors other then green flesh

IG: Using the Desert units and paint them as certain militant groups in the Middle east.

I even heard people getting mad at people painting Salamanders with black skin because of the fluff.



Where is the fine line?

Or do we just paint like what GW wants and follow certain painting guide line on what the armies should look like, with changes in cloths and armor colors.

where to draw the line hmm... depends on what your associate think of you i guess.

if you are happy , cheerful guy thats open and good they would care less if your minis are painted nazi colors.
myself admire how their uniform looks from artistic point of view

but if you are spooky gloomy emo and hates the world, fielding a nazi army might be a bad idea.

i asked this in my RT store before when i started 40k, some of the older war vets just smiled and said they think it looks cool
too just dont go overboard and start behaving like one was what they told me.

it all depends on the individual imo.

Well as long as you don't stereotype units or armies with the skin colour or theme such as having black IG with bandanas and boom boxes or having slaneesh marines having horsecocks. The two examples I mentioned I have seen in real life- a really racist guy in my gamming club made that IG army and added some space marines in white armour with hoods as their masters and a chick made the slaneesh guys but both have long since been kicked out

I would have no problem having a game with any well painted army regardless of the theme or design elements it has. The person who controls said army is where I might be concerned. I think it is absurd to get so offened you want to fight someone due to a paint shceme on thier army. What has that paint scheme ever done to you? The first amendement does not relegate me to only free speech and expression that doesn't offend. If some one who is an enjoyable oppnent played an army rife with racist, sexist, etc... symbols I would not care as long as it was a fun game. This is the USA. I personally have fought for the entire bill of rights, and just because I may not like what someone says does not mean that they do not have the right to say it.

If someone is a jerk, cheats, or isn't fun to play gainst, kick them out of the gaming club. Don't kick someone out or get into a fight, because some paint choices on some plastic men offended you.

Even though you personally might not get offended by paint schemes, other people do.

As said many times before, free speech has its limits.

Astalado wrote:
I am just asking where the line is

If you have to ask, you know where it is, and know that you're crossing it. The line is the line of good taste.

Someone earlier said it best I believe, and it's my opinion as well.

Take your theme.

If you would be embarrassed/uncomfortable at all leaving it on the gaming table, walking away for a couple hours, and having every person from every walk of life come up and look at it without an explanation, then it probably isn't the best idea.

You can theme armies without theming them into some offensive. I talk with a friend all the time about her army themes, alien movie nids, game inspired characters in armies, anime inspired models, etc, they're all very cool, and none of them offend me.

Why does your army need to reflect your political/racial/religious feelings? Don't you get enough of that discussion elsewhere without having to paint SS guardsmen and demolition charge guardsmen dressed as middle eastern men just to provoke issues a lot of people are sensitive to?

Free speech isn't really "free". Dosen't matter what you say or do anymore, your bound to offend someone.

The U.S. government has no right to prohibit the painting of Nazi space marines. On my own property, I can paint as many rhinos covered in swastikas as I afford.

The Bill of Rights guarantees this, but constitutional freedom of speech doesn't have any relevance in whether or not someone is offended by something, or whether or not something will make you look like a jackass, or even whether or not someone will let you bring these models onto their private property.

@orc

You are 100% correct, any person whose house the game is taking place at, any TO or game store owner has the complete right to tell any one to leave for any reason. And if you want to paint those things that may be offensive be ready to be asked to leave.

But to infer that someone should'nt use a color, or idea just because it might offend someone is wrong. In this country (USA) anyone can paint their models however they want (barring libel or copyright infringement etc...). It is a shame there are so many people out ther with such delicate senseabilities. To think that little plastic men painted a certain way could raise such ire....

But he's asking because maybe he wants to play with us?

While I realize most of GW's armies have been influenced by real life armies and conflicts, these type of historically-themed armies in 40k make my stomach turn a little bit. This is probably because, barring a few exceptions, in my experience they are almost always poorly researched, poorly executed, and tasteless. Doing things like painting "Arbeit macht Frei" on a sentinel is stupid and pointless, as is painting infantry in black, white, and red in an attempt to reference SS parade uniforms.

The way I see it, 40k is 40k, and there are so many other themes you could do, so many other ways to exercise your creative muscles without the risk of making yourself look like a tool, why would you want to limit yourself to a crappy historical theme that will probably offend someone or require some lame explanation that "justifies" your paint scheme in the 40k universe?

If you want to do a historically themed army, for the love of Dakka, just play historical games. It will be a lot more interesting and much less offensive. Stop trying to bring lame "historically themed" armies into the 40k universe.

I say all this as someone who plays German Panzergrenadiers in Flames of War.


Also, somecallmeJack, as far as I can tell the Death Korps of Krieg is more based on WWI, not WWII "Blitzkrieg." If there's any IG force that I would say is (loosely) based on "Blitzkrieg," it would be the Steel Legion. And still, I think an SS-themed army of any type in 40k is in poor taste, but I wouldn't be interested in playing an SS army in Flames of War either, although I would play against them.

Well said Hordini.

The real keys are "why did you choose this theme/color scheme/etc" and "does this feel like an organic part of the 40k universe, or like a historical force dropped head first into 40k." If you decide you like the idea of grim, forboding troopers fighting in parade dress, then Mordians painted up in black, red, white and silver makes sense, as those are dour colors (just look at the entire Sisters line up). Do they look a little like SS troopers? Sure, but this is convergent evolution: two distinct cohorts independently choosing the same adaptations. On the flip side, if you paint little nazi arm bands on the mordians, that's an attempt to more directly import a historical idea into 40k.

Interestingly, the same limitation would apply to many ideas. A space marine army painted Olive Drab with Stars and Stripes shoulder pads would look ridiculous.

AS for intent, that's a bit trickier. Why are you painting the models this way? What aspect of the imagery attract you? Are you doing this to be a tool?

All I know is that I've played a guy with an IG army that had nazi symbols on it. I wasn't offended, per se, but I had to ask myself "is this guy a neo-nazi? Does he just think it's neat looking? If he's into historicals, why would he paint his 40k army to look like cartoon nazis instead of like the actual Wermacht?" In short, my response was "Why would you DO that?"

Offensiveness is all about context and a banner that simply says "Arbeit Macht Frei" (Work brings Freedom) is really a stupid thing to get angry about. Was his army in full SS garb and was the player goose-stepping around the store? If that is true then sure, that should probably be curbed. Otherwise however, a banner with some words on it is nothing to start a fight over.

Polonius (perhaps unintentionally) brings up an interesting point as well; understanding works both ways and calling someone a Nazi because of some swastikas without engaging him is a tad ignorant because there are reasons as to why someone might paint their units that way. I mean, the 40K universe is not exactly bright and flowery, and it is inevitable that certain aspects of real life will come out in the fiction.

As for the endowed Slaanesh Marines, I think that's hilarious. Some cultures seem to be really hung up about sexuality but IMO seeing as how the embodiement of the army is lascivicious pleasures, I wouldn't find this offensive. This game is aimed at adults and if you truly are one a small replica of a penis should not make you squirm all over.

One example I would give is a friends space wolf army. He was a big dukes of hazard fan. He had orange rhino's with the rebel flag on it and used the rebel flag as his army symbol.

We all thought it was original and kind of funny since we the orange rhino's kind of gave it away. However, recently he moved out to dc/virginia/baltimore area. We all told him that he should probably at least remove all the flags, good thing he did it too, it's a different world out there.

Polonius wrote:The real keys are "why did you choose this theme/color scheme/etc" and "does this feel like an organic part of the 40k universe, or like a historical force dropped head first into 40k." If you decide you like the idea of grim, forboding troopers fighting in parade dress, then Mordians painted up in black, red, white and silver makes sense, as those are dour colors (just look at the entire Sisters line up). Do they look a little like SS troopers? Sure, but this is convergent evolution: two distinct cohorts independently choosing the same adaptations. On the flip side, if you paint little nazi arm bands on the mordians, that's an attempt to more directly import a historical idea into 40k.

Well said.

Refyougee wrote:Offensiveness is all about context and a banner that simply says "Arbeit Macht Frei" (Work brings Freedom) is really a stupid thing to get angry about. Was his army in full SS garb and was the player goose-stepping around the store? If that is true then sure, that should probably be curbed. Otherwise however, a banner with some words on it is nothing to start a fight over.

I think there's a gap between "bad enough to use violence against" and "garden variety offensive." If you painted "Arbeit Macht Frei" on your tanks I'd have to ask, "why?" Why is there a relatively obscure german saying, in contemporary german, painted on something from the 41st millennium? Why would a person do that, knowing that most people only know it in the context of the Holocaust? It's not the idea that is troublesome (the imperium of man is clearly run on slave labor, xenophobia, eugenics and brutal political oppression). What's troublesome is that the execution is clearly meant to make a person think of the 20th century Holocaust, and not anything in the 40k universe. I think it would be more interesting to translate into the Pseudo latin of High Gothic, or even write a similar thing in English. Of course, why would a fighting unit be propagandizing about labor? I doubt anybody would mind if "Labor makes you free" were painted on a terrain piece of the Manufactorium. It makes sense in the context of the Imperium.

My point, as elusive as it may be, is that when something makes no sense, does not fight in the world, and an offensive meaning is the most obvious reading, it makes sense that people would be offended.

Polonius (perhaps unintentionally) brings up an interesting point as well; understanding works both ways and calling someone a Nazi because of some swastikas without engaging him is a tad ignorant because there are reasons as to why someone might paint their units that way. I mean, the 40K universe is not exactly bright and flowery, and it is inevitable that certain aspects of real life will come out in the fiction.

It is ignorant to immediately assume that you read somebody's symbolism properly, i don't doubt that. I'd always ask why they painted their things that way, and I listen to the reasons. Frankly, in my experience it's a roughly even split between people that simply don't care (and take a certain glee) in being offensive or wielding taboos, and people that think history is cool without doing any iota of research. Now, I've seen some amazing armies that were evocative of German Panzer grenadiers or the like that I knew what they were by color scheme, symbols, etc. They looked, you know, like what a highly industrialized, disciplined and militant society would create in the 41st millenium.

OK so whats the problem with painting orks something besides green again? I'm sure I saw an orc army painted a different color once that was inspired.

Frazzled wrote:OK so whats the problem with painting orks something besides green again? I'm sure I saw an orc army painted a different color once that was inspired.

I don't think there's anything wrong with it if the reasons for the color change are because of their role in the 40k universe, and not to simply match up to some historical paradigm.

Ah, gotcha.

I think it's really nice to see orks with skin other than green. I like Malfred's scheme, and I've seen red orks that looked really cool. I would definitely encourage people to paint different ork skin tones and colors.

I would only have a problem with it if it was in an attempt to reference some sort of racial stereotype, which could easily be done with any army, not just orks.