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I have begun some work on some new army concepts that are different from the norms of traditional paint way. The question is this, as long as you keep the concept real and feel of the army true to to the concept, where is the line drawn?

Examples:

IG: Mordians painted black with red and white details to look more like a certain unit from germany.

IG or Orcs: Painted to represent modern day Gang Bangers. using ethnic colors other then green flesh

IG: Using the Desert units and paint them as certain militant groups in the Middle east.

I even heard people getting mad at people painting Salamanders with black skin because of the fluff.



Where is the fine line?

Or do we just paint like what GW wants and follow certain painting guide line on what the armies should look like, with changes in cloths and armor colors.

Well, generally speaking....

KKK, Islamic Militants, Nazi Themed (NOT inspired) etc are all very much no-nos. Modern Gangbanger Orks would be racist in the extreme (why suddenly paint them etnically, unless you are suggesting only Ethnics could possibly be part of Ethnic Violence)

I'd steer clear of such themes, lest people question your inspiration.

Astalado wrote:I have begun some work on some new army concepts that are different from the norms of traditional paint way. The question is this, as long as you keep the concept real and feel of the army true to to the concept, where is the line drawn?

Examples:

IG: Mordians painted black with red and white details to look more like a certain unit from germany.

IG or Orcs: Painted to represent modern day Gang Bangers. using ethnic colors other then green flesh

IG: Using the Desert units and paint them as certain militant groups in the Middle east.

I even heard people getting mad at people painting Salamanders with black skin because of the fluff.



Where is the fine line?

Or do we just paint like what GW wants and follow certain painting guide line on what the armies should look like, with changes in cloths and armor colors.

Questions:

Why couldn't the Gang Bangers be white?



My orks are ethnic, but I paint MOST of (Protectorate, Imperial Guard, Cygnar, Circle Orboros)
my models that way. It helps that I have dark skin.

Indeed. With regards to the mordians (or even steel legion) a certain WW2 influence is fine I would say, as long as you stay away from the SS and use of the Swastika or any variation.

As for Gangbangers, I would most certainly advise against painting the Ork skin a different colour. But a Gang theme per say is fine, otherwise the whole of Necromuda would be offensive. Mind you if somone painted a Necromunda gang to represent crips and bloods I would be offended. Same the Redemtionists painted white!

If you think it might be controversial, it probably will be!

Exacatly!

I never said a ethnic group. I am just asking where that line is.

Another example.

Should we also never do anything political in our armies.

I am just asking where the line is

For all potentially controversial or insulting army ideas, I think the actual line is very complicated. IG painted to look like Waffen SS (in field dress, not parade uniforms) replacing swastikas with imperial aquilas would probably be ok. You're replicated the dress of an elite unit from a totalitarian regime (not unlike the Imperium of Man) while downplaying any political or ideological aspects.

For a full analysis, I think it helps to determine how you've fit the theme into 40k. Is it a completely plausible 40k army that is themed in a similar way to something from earth's past? Or is it something from earth's past replicated as completely as possible, no matter how incongrous it is with 40k's own continuity. Ork Gangbangers make complete sense. Bandannas, wife beaters, dual pistols, low rider trukks, ghettoblasters, even bottles of squig Ale all make sense for an ork Army in 40k. Orks without green skin makes less sense, and while there are reasons to do that for some armies, combinbing non-green skin with gangbanging orks is making more of a political statement.

In general, I propose a simple rule for the question "would anybody find it offensive if I did..." If you were to run into a person that could be naturally (not easily) offended by the subject matter of your army, would have any hesitation in showing them your army? If so, maybe you should consider toning it down. If not, then prepare to explain to people that you're not racist, but that you took an interesting idea and ran with it.

The simplest possible rule: if you are afraid people will be offended, they probably will. It's overly broad, but it prevents beatings.

I almost started a fight with a guy at a local game shop a few years back due to the "Arbeit macht Frei" banner he had on one of his sentinels. He was banned from the shop.

Usually I see that edgy stuff is done by people because they want to provoke a reaction in others. This is just immature and unnecessary and will get you ostracized from some venues of play.

Again, I'm following Polonius who as also stated several points that I would have brought up. I'd like to reemphasize the point about making minor changes to an army uniform; some of those evil bastards had some snazzy threads, so keeping the theme while replacing the iconography (and making other minor changes) is your best bet. That way you're not showing that you support/honor the syphilitic goat-reamers of the past.

I even heard people getting mad at people painting Salamanders with black skin because of the fluff.

Why? GW says they have black skin. And now it's literally black, like freaking drow...(I would still paint them to have dark skin if I was still doing a Salamander army, I don't want an army of drow elf Marines).

Doesn't make any sense either, why change it? What's wrong with black Marines?

Usually I see that edgy stuff is done by people because they want to provoke a reaction in others. This is just immature and unnecessary and will get you ostracized from some venues of play.

Indeed. I say if you honest to god just like the costume then by all means, but I would say the line has been crossed when you start incorporating Nazi imagery and slogans on your models. Just use some common sense, don't do it.

And malfred, are your Orks straight brown? Because they still look somewhat greenish to me, like an olive color that just has more brown than green.

Reaper Dark Skin.

I think the line is drawn the same way it is in common conversation. Social etiquette offers that religion and politics is where it's drawn, but beyond that, I would consider that if you wouldn't discuss something with strangers leave it out of your army.

Astalado makes a good point about the lines we are supposed to cross, but then again, I think it has to do with perception. I have seen a few orks painted to look very mexican and being mexican mself, I found it humorous (the other player was also hispanic). I really don't think anyone trying to make a whimsical army is being immature, but just trying to have fun. Granted, any renditions of the KKK, or specific gangs, or nazis would be a social no no, I think as long as you know it is not going to cause a riot, you are ok. I personally did a necromunda gang of Cawdor that were converted to look like Death Eaters from Harry Potter (They even had wands!) and some people kind of steered away from the unpainted versions. Once I had them pianted however people seemed to like them and had no more issues with them.

Athough, I think if you are wanting to do something controversial, or that you feel would anger people, do not play it in your gaming circles until you ask fellow gamers their personal opinions on the idea. If enough people say it is not a good idea, then have the good sense not to do it, or bring the army there. I know of another gamer who made a Necromunda gang with Barak Obama on his soapbox with the gang made up of secret service. He consulted everyone in our gaming circle and we agreed it was more humourous then offensive. Just food for thought.

I would love to see that Gang Anduril sounds funny. I wonder how he or she did it.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
(why suddenly paint them etnically, unless you are suggesting only Ethnics could possibly be part of Ethnic Violence)

Of course only ethnics could be part of Ethnic Violence, because that's the definition of Ethnic Violence. Sorry man I had to call you on that one. What I really find amusing is that you use the word ethnic as if it only applies to non whites. Just so you know, Caucasian is an ethnicity too.

Iorek wrote:I almost started a fight with a guy at a local game shop a few years back due to the "Arbeit macht Frei" banner he had on one of his sentinels. He was banned from the shop.

I think that would have been a great idea if he had written it in English, or better yet Latin. But writing it in german linked it to Auschwitz which is a definite no no.

youbedead wrote:

Iorek wrote:I almost started a fight with a guy at a local game shop a few years back due to the "Arbeit macht Frei" banner he had on one of his sentinels. He was banned from the shop.

I think that would have been a great idea if he had written it in English, or better yet Latin. But writing it in german linked it to Auschwitz which is a definite no no.

Interesting notion. Is the reference safe while verbatim reconstruction is off limits? Presumably nobody not in the know would understand why his sentinel would have 'Work makes you free' flying on its banner, however if the people in the know understand the reference, wouldn't this be identical to a verbatim reconstruction? Unless it was some sort of reclamation attempt, like Power Lifter sentinels squadrons in a conscript-PDF themed force...

I think that work will set you free is something they would teach imperial citizens. I don't think they would teach it in German, but they would teach it in Gothic or Latin.

sourclams wrote:Interesting notion. Is the reference safe while verbatim reconstruction is off limits? Presumably nobody not in the know would understand why his sentinel would have 'Work makes you free' flying on its banner, however if the people in the know understand the reference, wouldn't this be identical to a verbatim reconstruction? Unless it was some sort of reclamation attempt, like Power Lifter sentinels squadrons in a conscript-PDF themed force...

I'd say there are situations where a reference is okay and a complete reconstruction isn't.

Even throughout 40k, they have the Inquisition "purging the heretics," which is a reference to the torture and deaths of all kinds of Jews, Muslims, and other people the Spanish Inquisition wanted to see dead.

That doesn't mean Witch Hunter players hate those people or something. And should a Witch Hunter player model their Inquisitor Lord torturing Muslims and Jews I would say that probably "crosses the line."

What about Templars?

The crusading army theme ought to be incredibly offensive. What are armies other than the representatives of selfish groups looking out to defend their own interests? Islamic militants, Christian fundamentalists, White supremacists, Israel, street gangs of any ethnicity - they represent selfish hostility, incited only by the thought of a neighbouring group threatening their way of life.

Celebrate wargaming as a chance to practice war-based strategy and artistic expression without this fear. Having a 'fight' that won't lead to decades of mutual hatred and disgust from either side. If you're going to try to offend people, you're doing it wrong. Refuse to play against them. It's only a game.

I imagine 'Arbeit macht Frei' in the army Iorek mentioned was only offensive because of the context. On its own it's a piece of wisdom people would do well not to forget. In fifty years or so it ought to be on an archway over Wall Street, once everyone who has a right to be offended is gone.

Astalado wrote:IG: Mordians painted black with red and white details to look more like a certain unit from germany.

It's funny how in one game this can be viewed as not a big issue (flames of war) while another game people get all bent out of shape. I personally think that as long as it's done tastefully, it's no big deal. As long as the person isn't playing it up and being straight up offensive, it might be a descent looking army. Sure the Nazi's did some bad things, but I don't it's any worse than stuff that it is done in the 40k fluff. After all, the Imperium does like to exterminate quite a lot of alien races.

Astalado wrote:IG or Orcs: Painted to represent modern day Gang Bangers. using ethnic colors other then green flesh

I probably wouldn't even pick this out unless it was pointed out to me or as with above, flaunted. As with the above, as long as it's done to be intentionally racist, who cares.

Astalado wrote:IG: Using the Desert units and paint them as certain militant groups in the Middle east.

Same as above, painting a model brown doesn't make it a PC issue.

Astalado wrote:I even heard people getting mad at people painting Salamanders with black skin because of the fluff.

These people are just stupid. Thankfully the new SM codex shows Salamanders painted jet black.

I'm actually surprised more people don't bitch about everything in the fluff and model painting being depicted as caucasian. I don't ever recall seeing a non-white IG model.

Techboss wrote:

I'm actually surprised more people don't bitch about everything in the fluff and model painting being depicted as caucasian. I don't ever recall seeing a non-white IG model.

dont see why it matters. you paid for the models, paints and brushes. who gets to say what can and cannot be used as a paint scheme

I find it funny, that some people will play a game where models come adorned with skulls and other gory pieces, where chaos slaughters billions, and the Imperium find Exterminatus as an acceptable outcome ... but be offended at someone's choice of army design ... assuming they aren't being dicks about it.

Um, I play friendly-tau and all they want is a galaxy full of buttslapping, enthusiastic shouts of encouragement, and friendly pats on your shoulder. I'm sure other people who play rose marines and IG led by commissar good-job would take offense to your comment.

But yeah those guys who play with marines with skulls and angry chaos demons are weird.

If you think it's offensive, it's probably is. This is a hobby, why deliberately go around offending the people you want to have a good time with?

You could just as easily paint a big penis on the top of all your tanks, or do other stuff, but most people don't, because they realize where the lines are, and they don't cross them.

Malfred, that hut in the background of the picture of your Orks, is clearly inspired by the Smurfs.

I call racism! Smurfs are a deadly menace that imbodies all things evil in this world!

My belief is, if one were to walk calmly to me and politely ask for a game; they are worth playing, regardless of theme. Now, if they are a jerk, or start spouting hate, I will not associate with them.
but will I attack them for it? No, because if they do not cause any harm, they have all right to be a jerk.

malfred wrote:[

All I see is a Kasrkin who's been in the sun a bit too long.

BYE

I think that too much real life influence can be a bad thing.

I like the 40K fluff, imagery and the escapism it produces.

Whilst I appreciate the skill involved in building/painting hyper
realistic and super detailed IG tanks they do leave me a bit cold.
More skulls and impossibly heavy guns are a good thing IMO!

Techboss wrote:

Astalado wrote:IG: Mordians painted black with red and white details to look more like a certain unit from germany.

It's funny how in one game this can be viewed as not a big issue (flames of war) while another game people get all bent out of shape. I personally think that as long as it's done tastefully, it's no big deal. As long as the person isn't playing it up and being straight up offensive, it might be a descent looking army. Sure the Nazi's did some bad things, but I don't it's any worse than stuff that it is done in the 40k fluff. After all, the Imperium does like to exterminate quite a lot of alien races.

In flames of war, there is historical context that excuses the use of such units, whereas in 40k, you have no such context.

Techboss wrote:

I'm actually surprised more people don't bitch about everything in the fluff and model painting being depicted as caucasian. I don't ever recall seeing a non-white IG model.

This bothers me as well. GW, you do sell a paint called dark flesh for god's sake...

Ifurita wrote:I find it funny, that some people will play a game where models come adorned with skulls and other gory pieces, where chaos slaughters billions, and the Imperium find Exterminatus as an acceptable outcome ... but be offended at someone's choice of army design ... assuming they aren't being dicks about it.

Just because your little men want to be fascist dicks doesn't mean you get to be one.