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LordWaffles wrote:

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:
Chaos Dreads
Pros
- Cheap
- Usually made of metal
- Surprises people

Cons
- Can lose you the game on turn 1
- Crazed
- No drop podding
- It's really, really bad.
- Also can lose you the game on turn 1. This is a big issue.

Defilers
Pros
- Not a dreadnought
- Won't reliably lose you games.

I think this about sums it up.

Too true.

He's not praising the glories of something that'll either be completely-shooty and not shoot the enemy 1/3rd the time, or completely-smashy and stop and shoot your friends instead of moving from time to time. (Meaning it just sits there and the enemy can blow it away)

Maybe if your opponent is too distracted by an overpowered squad of Nob Bikers to gun em down, 1 or 2 dreads might pose a danger, but if your opponent is fielding dreads as chaos, it's just your lucky day.


Those 9 Obliterators and those rhino squads w/ meltaguns + powerfists and those two Demon Prince MCs? Those all exist as good options to wipe a dread off the table and chuckle. And the non-dread player will still have more troop choices alive to take objectives. It takes at least 9 lascannon shots to remove an 8man squad of PMs in a rhino from the game. 1 good lascannon to take out a dread. If your opponent is smart, you'll have to choose between trying to hide your CC dread behind some trees far away, or getting blown to bits with no save in the middle ground.

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:[vent]I simply love your bias on the matter, LordWaffles. It makes your post so much less worth it.

I mean seriously, do you people even try out Walkers before you say they suck?

I run Deff Dreads in my Ork army and they have won me games.

Oh and guess what, THEY'RE JUST LIKE CHAOS DREADS.
[/vent]

Oh you spoiled ork kids with your phil kelly-blessed codex, you haven't had to stand in the cold wind of rules like crazed...It's okay though, I'll explain it for you:
Chaos Dreads are just fine the way they are, a dirt-cheap and kind of junky alternative to the already superior(yet more costly) dreadnoughts of the other races. This is what I assume you know about them, because not once in your post do you reference the crazed table and how BAD it makes dreadnoughts.

You pay for a ten-point discount off a normal dreadnought to get one that REFUSES to listen to you 1/3 of the game. At best, he'll spend a turn not doing anything(This is assuming he's in a lightless box the stupid git can't get out of). When I spend one hundred points and an elite slot on something, it is unacceptable for it to "not do anything" for a turn. At worst it'll:
A ) Blow your troops to pieces
B ) Fleet towards the nearest lascannon nest, or through terrain so it'll strike at the same initiative as powerklawz(I assume you at least know what these are.)

Deff dreads can win games because they're not slowed like chaos dreads. Learn what a unit does before trying to call out someone who's used the damn thing.

I don't think Chaos dreads misbehave 1/3rd of the time. You either weant them to move or shoot right? 1/6th of the time they do what you want twice as good as any other dread. 1/6th of the time they don't do what you want and 4/6th of the time they just do what you want.

I disagree with the thought that a 1 on the first turn loses you the game with the Dread. That's like saying I won't play because a 6 on the seize roll will lose me the game. Dreads with 2 CC arms are great and won't hurt a fly when paired with another dread no matter if a 1 is rolled.

A single lascannon shot, in theory, can take down a dread. A single battlecannon shot, in theory can take down a squad of Plague Marines. A single lascannon shot has ~ an 11% chance to take down a dread. So ~ 88% of the time it survives. Meanwhile that lascannon is firing at a 105-120pt dread and not at a Daemon Prince or an Obliterator or a Land Raider, etc...

I love the Chaos dreads. I wish I could run them with multi-meltas like the loyalist dreads but I can't. I give them 2 CCW and extra armor for 115pts. I'll put 2-3 on one side and run up every turn they can. 1/6th the time they don't do what I want. 5/6th the time they do fine. I'll put a 35pt rhinoi in front of them for a 4+ cover save if I have to. No Defiler will ever get a 4+ cover save from a Rhino.

Will MC's hurt the dread? Yes, eventually. DP's have 5 attacks on the charge, 3 hit, 2 pens and 5-6 kills the dread. Powefists? Not likely. 2 attacks, 1 hit, 5+ to pen and 5+ to destroy means ~ 10% chance to kill the dread with a powerfist.

Chaos Dreads aren't as bad as they have been made out to be.

DarthDiggler wrote:I don't think Chaos dreads misbehave 1/3rd of the time. You either weant them to move or shoot right? 1/6th of the time they do what you want twice as good as any other dread. 1/6th of the time they don't do what you want and 4/6th of the time they just do what you want.

You want them to move and shoot in most cases. There is no penalty for moving and shooting on Dreads as there is on other units in the game. I may want to move closer to the enemy to make use of my CCW or I may want to move away from the enemy for cover or to avoid an assault. Loosing the ability to move 1/3 of the time is huge. Additionally, the 1/6 chance it shoots twice, doesn't allow you to choose the target. It's the closest unit, meaning you have to account for this constantly, thus gimping your strat or pray for good luck. Unlike 4th, were you could take destroyer and tool the thing up to make it a worthwhile gamble, it's not worth it anymore.

DarthDiggler wrote:I disagree with the thought that a 1 on the first turn loses you the game with the Dread. That's like saying I won't play because a 6 on the seize roll will lose me the game. Dreads with 2 CC arms are great and won't hurt a fly when paired with another dread no matter if a 1 is rolled.

I spend twice the points for 2 crappy models so they won't shoot the rest of my army. I then give up a heavy weapon so I can take advantage of a crappy rule, where I can just as easily roll the exact opposite BAD roll and stand their drooling the whole game.

DarthDiggler wrote:A single lascannon shot, in theory, can take down a dread. A single battlecannon shot, in theory can take down a squad of Plague Marines. A single lascannon shot has ~ an 11% chance to take down a dread. So ~ 88% of the time it survives. Meanwhile that lascannon is firing at a 105-120pt dread and not at a Daemon Prince or an Obliterator or a Land Raider, etc...

Vehicles are more vunerable because pie plate weapons are harder to obtain in general. Weapon destroyed, stunned, shaken and destroyed are all equal from a shooting stand point, resulting in the vehicle being unable to shoot. Suriving is one thing, suriving in a combat effective state is another. Immoblised is just as good as a kill on the ole DCCW dread people bring up.

DarthDiggler wrote:I love the Chaos dreads. I wish I could run them with multi-meltas like the loyalist dreads but I can't. I give them 2 CCW and extra armor for 115pts. I'll put 2-3 on one side and run up every turn they can. 1/6th the time they don't do what I want. 5/6th the time they do fine. I'll put a 35pt rhinoi in front of them for a 4+ cover save if I have to. No Defiler will ever get a 4+ cover save from a Rhino.

More points for a crappy model. Your up to 265 points. Why not just get some terminators for that. They can deepstrike and hit just as hard.

DarthDiggler wrote:Will MC's hurt the dread? Yes, eventually. DP's have 5 attacks on the charge, 3 hit, 2 pens and 5-6 kills the dread. Powefists? Not likely. 2 attacks, 1 hit, 5+ to pen and 5+ to destroy means ~ 10% chance to kill the dread with a powerfist.

One must also consider grenades as most armies are coming with them now. Once again, weapon destroyed is just as good as destroyed in most cases.

DarthDiggler wrote:Chaos Dreads aren't as bad as they have been made out to be.

Yes they are.

Except that deff dreads don't go crazy.

I'd stick with defilers and if you want dreads, then give them a flamer and march them up the field. If you're running armour, you might as well load up several armour units to spread the luvin' around by the enemy. Running a defiler (or 2) and a couple dreads means he gets to pick what kills him - the defilers BC or the flamers and DCCW.

Even if you're facing 2 units of lootas there's no grauntee that he can knock down a walker a turn and if he's shooting at them, he's not shooting at rhinos carrying PM.

I too run dreads and KKs in my ork army btw. Gotta love putting 11 walkers on the table...

I have played a great deal against dread wielding CSM, and I really have to concur that they are not scary in general, and much less than defilers in general. Far too often have I seen a first turn 1, resulting in the dread turning and vaporizing a squad with a double tap plasma cannon or lascannon. Or a 6 that causes the shooty dread to charge towards my line, out of cover, and without firing that expensive lascannon. That 1/3 chance of not doing what you want can be really killer when you are in a pinch, and rest assured your opponant will take advantage of the situation and keep your units closer to that shooty dread than otherwise.
Further, CC dreads have a bit of a walk before they can put any pressure on the opponant, so they are not so exciting as it may seem. In a KP mission they never even have to be allowed near your lines, as they don't fleet (reliably). They can often be allowed to waddle forward for a turn or two before even having the first shot fired at them.

Also, never underestimate the power of Possession, especially on a vehicle with a large blast template. Defilers are almost impossible to shut up short a weapon destroyed roll or kill. That is 5 out of 6 glancing rolls they don't care much about (immobilized is a little unfortunate too though) and 2/6 pens they ignore.

Now, don't get me wrong, I play 2 dreads in my SM list. They are good fellows, however, and do what they are told, every time.

FWIW, my CSM list is 3 Defilers, 1 Dread. I figure the Dread won't have any problem getting to the enemy lines, as those Defilers are going to get a *lot* of attention...

I for one, love it when chaos players buy dreds- it makes my job of trouncing them that much easier.

But seriously...

Defilers are better in pretty much every situation. They have fleet, a str 8 ap 3 battle cannon, daemonic possession, and the option of getting extra DCCW for cheap. They won't be used against dreadnaughts, but their place in life is to be a massive firemagnet/ template dropping/ fleeting assault monstrosity.

Also, not doing what you want 1/3 of the time is a huge, massive problem, especially since the new game is very objective based and has variable amounts of turns in the game. You don't want to have a unit that lulls around just 1" away from being able to contest an objective (this won me a game once).

With defilers, you not only have better shooting, and the ability to consistently assault where you want, you never have to worry about then failing to do what you want them to. Also, with the new damage tables, ignoring stunned and shaken rolls is really nice.

Honestly, use dreads, just keep them the f**k away from your other units, because as we all know, Dreadnoughts are prone to going flying rodent gak crazy and murdering everything. Now, if they go crazy near an enemy, then it has all paid off, and a 'F**K YES!' is in order.

Throw in a Defiler now and then. Just my two cents.

sludwig wrote:Honestly, use dreads, just keep them the f**k away from your other units, because as we all know, Dreadnoughts are prone to going flying rodent gak crazy and murdering everything. Now, if they go crazy near an enemy, then it has all paid off, and a 'F**K YES!' is in order.

Throw in a Defiler now and then. Just my two cents.

Im with Sludwig - dreads have their place, but you gotta know how to use them. Ive had great success with keeping them in reserve against tyranids. tyranids swarm forward, then when it pops out on turn 2,3 or 4, all it can attack is your opponent - going crazy is great!

They fail epically against stand and shoot armies, as they have to cross the board to get there, tearing holes in your own units as they do it.

Love dreads, and it hurts me to hear people dont like the model.

In Apoc games i run 3 of them and they work like the way something chaos should
though mine get immoblized before they reach the enemy it gives you a cheap somehting to scare your oponent wiht
and so what a few guys die if it goes crazy then send it along so its not so near to the enemy and if they ignor it then you got a dreadnought at their heart

Threadomancy most foul!

Sludwig dont post on threads that are over a month old unless you have something significant to add.

Regwon is correct (although a one month timeline is a bit short) . If you desire you can start a new thread on the topic.