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I was looking over the Walker choices in the CSM Codex, and I'm wondering; which one is better?

Chaos Dreads
Pros
- Higher WS, higher BS
- Cheaper
- Smaller; Easier to obscure with terrain and able to hide
- Versatile; Able to effectively destroy Vehicles both at range and in CC
- Higher Initiative than the Defiler
- More ranged weapon options

Cons
- Not as many ranged weapons
- Crazed
- Cannot take Daemonic Possession (But can take Extra Armor)
- Needs to roll a 6 on the Crazed roll to get Fleet.

Defilers
Pros
- More ranged weaponry
- Battlecannon being among those ranged weapons
- Comes with Daemonic Possession
- Comes with Fleet

Cons
- F*cking huge model, next to impossible to hide, let alone obscure
- Lower WS, lower BS
- Lower Initiative
- More expensive
- Battlecannon being a template weapon at BS 3, good chance of getting half-strength on vehicles.
- Is a target. A big one.

I'm starting to see more out of taking Dreads, I would gladly take that Crazed roll (since I play mainly Orks, I'm used to having things mess up on me).

Any opinions on the matter?

If your going only between Dreads and Defilers go with Defilers. They are miles better. Their better weaponry makes them far more viable even if they are hard to hide. Daemonic possession and AV 13 will help with it's size. You can always mod it a little so it can be slightly smaller or thinner. The crazed on the Dreads is just such a liability it can't be overlooked.

If you can take something else, Oblits are better than both.

Lets delve alittle closer to the matter.

Defiler:
This option takes up a heavy support slot. But comes with a wide range of weapons to suit many threats. Having a higher AV gives it additional survivability. However, it closes a heavy support slot, many players these days have a large array of AT weapons and without other tanks to support it, it will go down fast and hard.

Dreadnought:
This option fills up an elite and leaves room of obilitorators/havoks/etc. Lacking the large armoury of the defilers it still can be a blessing, the dread can take deadly heavy weapons and has a hightened BS to accompany it. If you are looking at CC, then give it two dread CC weapons, this also removes the craze rule.

The dread can work-out slightly cheaper in points.

Personally i love dreads and have played against them and they are lethal. thats my 2 cents

Defilers take up Obliterator slots, which can not be quantified in points.

Defilers do not have a higher armor than Dreadnoughts. Giving a Dreadnought 2 CCW does not remove the crazy rule. 8 TL Bolter shots at your own guys still sucks, so if you want to run a CCW Dread run it next to something with AV (like another dread).

Replacing one of the TL Bolters with a Flamer will help counter Crazed, since there will only be 4 Bolter shots on your own guys.

And with that Flamer, if he Fire Frenzies near an enemy squad..

Dreads + Defilers make a pretty good combo for a Chaos Monster Mash list. Theblklotus ran that at the Baltimore GT and did pretty well.

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:I was looking over the Walker choices in the CSM Codex, and I'm wondering; which one is better?

Chaos Dreads
Pros
- Higher WS, higher BS
- Cheaper
- Smaller; Easier to obscure with terrain and able to hide
- Versatile; Able to effectively destroy Vehicles both at range and in CC
- Higher Initiative than the Defiler
- More ranged weapon options

Cons
- Not as many ranged weapons
- Crazed
- Cannot take Daemonic Possession (But can take Extra Armor)
- Needs to roll a 6 on the Crazed roll to get Fleet.

Defilers
Pros
- More ranged weaponry
- Battlecannon being among those ranged weapons
- Comes with Daemonic Possession
- Comes with Fleet

Cons
- F*cking huge model, next to impossible to hide, let alone obscure
- Lower WS, lower BS
- Lower Initiative
- More expensive
- Battlecannon being a template weapon at BS 3, good chance of getting half-strength on vehicles.
- Is a target. A big one.

I'm starting to see more out of taking Dreads, I would gladly take that Crazed roll (since I play mainly Orks, I'm used to having things mess up on me).

Any opinions on the matter?

The ONLY plus I see to using a dread instead of a defiler is that the dread is an elite slot, not a heavy slot.

The defiler outshoots the dread every day of the week, and it's 100% reliable.

A CC dread hiding back in your zone is useless, it has to slowly move into the open to reach the enemy, meaning it can be blasted dead exactly as easy as a defiler.

A shooting dread hiding back isn't doing much dmg, plus 2/6th the time it either kills your own troops or just doesn't hurt enemies at all. Neither of which are beneficial.

A chaos dread's armor 12 and without demonic possession put it in the light-armor category. If the enemy spend 2-3 turns killing a Defiler, maybe it gets a few pie plates off and wipes part of the enemies army away before it goes out. If the enemy spends 2-3 turns killing a Dreadnaught slowly moving up and randomly attacking its own army, then the enemy is much luckier.

The only advantage at all of the dread is really that dreads don't inhibit you taking landraiders or obliterators any. So if you already have all 3 heavy slots maxed out with those, that's the only time I'd take a dread (if even then.)

yeah,
Dreads look better.

Panic...

Why do people look so badly down on the humble/crazed chaos dread?

Squig_herder wrote:Why do people look so badly down on the humble/crazed chaos dread?

Because 1 turn in 3 they are not completely under your control?

Fire Frenzie/Craze isnt always bad, what if you get Fire Frenzie and the enemy are closest?, is that such a curse?

Squig_herder wrote:Fire Frenzie/Craze isnt always bad, what if you get Fire Frenzie and the enemy are closest?, is that such a curse?

But what happens when you dont? What happens when you start the game and your dread turns round and shoots you in the face? What happens when it runs towards and charges that Hive Tyrant when you really want to shoot that last wound of a carnifex. What happens when you need to charge but end up sitting there firing your flamer and bolter twice?

Crazed makes it more likely that you will be unlucky. The circumstances where the rule is an advantage are situational at best. It always has the chance of ruining your game plan.

Crazed will be a bane more often than it will be a boon. Untill they alter it (or remove it completely) chaos dreads are resigned to the realms of casual games.

I play Guard so i am not an expert BUT: I think that dreadnoughts can be dropped ?At least via that forgeworld model in Imperial Armour: Apocalypse, the Dreadclaw (p.100). Dropping them in the middle of my infantry platoons always disrupts my fire plans

I must say, the Dread's crazed rule has never been a huge turn-off for me. It's fun...

Plus, the defilers are HORRIBLE models. I could never bring myself to use one. Maybe a scratch conversion, but...

@Nofasse 'Eadhunta: Your analysis of the pros and cons is dead on. The only one that I'd drop is the Defiler's con "Not as many ranged weapons" In my opinion, the Defiler should be either firing the battle cannon or fleeting towards combat. Paying for those BS3 weapons is a waste, other than swapping out for a Heavy Flamer.

@Squig_herder: Good point. I've always thought of the Dread and Defiler as "either or" because they're similar, but that's not true. With separate force organization choices, it makes the choice much more strategic than I first thought.

@TheBloodGod: I agree with the analysis of a Dread in the back field. With Crazed, it needs to be close to the bad guys.

I prefer leaving Defilers in the deployment zone, blasting away with Battle Cannon rounds, where they can also tie up enemies who outflank or infiltrate into the back field. On the plus side for Dreads, no one wants that thing near them, so they always seem to be the first target. This can, ironically, allow the unpredictable Dread to help you predict the flow of the early shooting game. (Not such a tangible advantage if the enemy shoots at something else, I'll admit.)

The best part of either option, IMHO, is their CC capabilities. The defiler can have up to 5 base attacks as well as a Battle cannon.

Now I have never really been able to use the Dread well I still believe that it can be. The only tactic that worked for me was to have it and my Defi take a flank. Of course one turn it ended up shooting at a Avatar instead of doing what I wanted it to do, BUT, I was able to make my opponent send his avatar over to kill it instead of at my PM and DP.

My dream List however involves 3 of each, cause it would just be SO SO much fun.

I personally don't care much for either choice. However, if forced to chose, I'd say Defiler. I have used one in smaller points battles, and they can be deadly effective. However, the Defiler is a tough unit to master. Do you sit still and fire the Battlecannon or run amok and try to get it into close combat? As for tooling the Defiler up, I'd go with the 2 extra cc arms. Dreads can be awesome to look at, but I find them ineffective for my stlye of play. That is not to say they cannot be an good choice, I just don't have the urge to try to master them. Either way you go, you better watch out for high Strength, low AP weapons, especially ones with long range (Lascannons will make your day quite unenjoyable).

in my opinion the defiler is the obvious choice. The battlecannon can almost hit every corner of the map and can devestate key enemy squads before they can stop your assaulting CSM. but WS3 makes them iffy when assaulting

The only time i would not take the defiler is if i would be facing a dread in close combat, because of the dreads higher I, other than that i cant think of anything wrong with it

I suggest *both*, with the numbers nod to the Defiler. After all, it's not like Dreads and Defilers compete for the same slots. The Defiler has a Battlecannon, which is awesome. The Dread with 2 CCWs is cheap. Take both.

Apples and oranges [ i like both in a smoothy ^^]

so Defilers are big well they own in cc

3 dreads 3 defilers...THAT would be a fun list

Just pray you don't roll too many 1's for your Crazed, or else your walkers might be in a heap of trouble

rolling a one on the first turn f's you over soo bad

Not if your Dread has 2 DNCCWs with twin Bolters.

Oh noes, he shoots with 2x 2x Bolter!?!

Big deal. Worst case, it's double-tapping <12" for 8 total Bolter hits.

You *might* lose *a* guy.

I run them both. The dreads get heavy flamers and CC weapons... march them up all together and worst case they shoot each other doing nothing.

With double lash in concert with 2 defilers and 3 dreads... its totally on. CC becomes really fun for me and a total wipeout for my opponent.

I prefer the Dreads all the way. Cheaper points, smaller size (makes it more survivable with hiding), better HtH ability and a much better FOC slot (elites over heavies).

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:
Chaos Dreads
Pros
- Cheap
- Usually made of metal
- Surprises people

Cons
- Can lose you the game on turn 1
- Crazed
- No drop podding
- It's really, really bad.
- Also can lose you the game on turn 1. This is a big issue.

Defilers
Pros
- Not a dreadnought
- Won't reliably lose you games.

I think this about sums it up.

[vent]I simply love your bias on the matter, LordWaffles. It makes your post so much less worth it.

I mean seriously, do you people even try out Walkers before you say they suck?

I run Deff Dreads in my Ork army and they have won me games.

Oh and guess what, THEY'RE JUST LIKE CHAOS DREADS.
[/vent]