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40kenthusiast wrote:@C99:

Hmm, you say Necrons are completely screwed, but I'm not entirely confident they can't force a draw.

Make a variant of my MechaGodzilla army. C'tan, 9 Spyders, Necrons.

Deploy in Circle the Wagon formation, with non-warriors on the outside, and the MC's forming the middle layer. The crunchies hide in the middle.

If the Bikers stay at a distance and shoot, the Necrons just camp out on the objectives and shoot back. It's a game with a whole lotta nothing going down. (even massed Immortal fire doesn't do much to Bikers, while biker fire is unimpressive vs. Immortals) If the bikers come in and charge the outside shell the Mc's counter charge and run them over (C'tan can take a whole unit on his lonesome, and that many spiders ought to be able to get something done vs. the other unit, esp. combined with all the gauss.).

Seems like the crons ought to be able to pull off a draw.

Without seeing a list for what you're describing, I can't see exactly, but you've got what, 9 Tomb Spyders? And a C'Tan. Hmm...I'm assuming 20 immortals and 20 warriors.

Those Tomb Spyders are toast. They need 5's to hit, 3's to wound, and they don't instakill. Even if all three charge a squad of bikes, they get 36 attacks, 12 hits, 8 wounds, and ~6 past the 5+ inv. save. Orks strike back with 16 power klaw attacks, 11 hits, 9 wounds. Actual results depend on how wounds are alocated among the three Tomb Spyder squads (or do they operate independently?)

If the C'Tan charges in support of the Tomb Spyders, Necrons win the combat, but that leaves the other nob squad to assault both remaining warrior squads. Game over. If the C'Tan charges the other nob squad, unsupported, I think the C'Tan dies.

Regardless, that's assuming that the nob biker player's something of an idiot. Because all he has to do is use one squad to take out the immortals, leaving only that squad in charge range of the tomb spyders and C'Tan. Then he charges in with the other squad, takes out the warriors, and necrons phase.

I think I'm going to have to stand with my original thought...totally screwed.

The Necrons might have a better chance with 9 Heavy Destroyers and the Nightbringer. That's 945pts right there. Add in 10 Pariahs and 20 warriors at 1850pts. I admit it's not much against anything else, but 9 mobile lascannons, the Nightbringer and 10-20 str 5 HtH attacks that ignore all saves might work.

A mobile Necron army might have a chance. They could outmaneuver the Nobz Bikers for about two rounds while shooting them. Heavy Destroyers could decimate them, while a C'tan could possibly finish them off.
However, I doubt that this works as the Bikers are too fast and could be supported by other fast units (Trukk Boyz).

Seems like the tomb spyders would be ignored altogether, since they hit on 5's and wound on 3's with their 3 non-instant death attacks each. A unit of 3 spiders on the countercharge is looking at 12 attacks, 4 hits, 2.6 wounds, 1.7 unsaved? A single nob power-klaw matches that output in return (3, 2, 1.64 respectively).

Dakkaguns would train on the c'tan (deal an avg of 3 wounds per turn), but even in assault I'd give it to one unit of bikes over the deceiver in an assault. WS5 isn't doing him any favors.

If the deceiver assaults in, he'll die to massed klaws + boss. If another unit assaults in with him to hold the klaws down, he'll lose the combat since he can't put out enough wounds by himself to offset what the nobs will do to the support unit.

Nightbringer fairs slightly better (by hitting on 3s and ID'ing the warboss), but both are relegated to countercharging one unit that probably multi-charged several of your units off the board last turn.

Edit: and Cent beat me to it. The numbers are not kind to the necron player. The ork player could do this one even in the theoretical worst case conditions.

Phooey.

I'm just building me a unit because I ned a retinue for my Biker Warboss and normal Bikers suck in CC (well, for Ork standards ). I haven't use them yet though.
At which point are there considered to be "too" powerfull? I have a Dok on bike, but I'm not planning ob giving them Cybork bodies, because sometimes I prefer "normal" Orks.

thats true.
Doesnt anyone want to mathahmmer that necron strategy?

Reaver83 wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Quick, someone go start up another NOB BIKER thread...we havent covered all facets of the subject!...or have we?

HOw does a hello kitty doll stop a Nob biker?

Well if the Hello Kitty Doll is a Terminator Hello Kitty thats not much of a problem even better if she has a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield. That reminds me I have to get some bits and convert some Terminator Kittys with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields.

Strength 8+ ranged preferably templates, backed up with Str 8 + power weapon attacks is the way to beat the bikers. Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines and other Marines can do it with Vindicators and Terminators in Land Raider. Tyranids have Barb Stranglers and Carnifexes. New Imperial Guard might pose a threat with Russ Squadrons for more templates but has no assault to back it up.

Hey what about Abbadon, or genesteelers, or whyches, or those daemon special characters, ie kugarth the nurgle guy, and/or the big badass khorne daemon lord..
arn't they good, what about epidimus and his special rule spam on nurgle guys?? what about any other powerful units, can nothing take em out?

A good point though is that a Full squad of Noob Bikers costs more than a titan :O !!

Abbadon's supposed to be unbeatable in HtH, or Ghazgull on his waaagh! charge, can they beat em?

Abby could kill one unit, but the second would shoot him to death. Depends on army makeup.

Or, he could roll a 1 for his number of attacks and do nothing but attack himself, followed by complete vaporization from the Nob squad. Daemon Weapons are a big gamble, especially with a unit as expensive as Abbadon.

tru

sourclams wrote:10 T5 models with 2 wounds each, a 4+ armor save, a 5+ invuln save, a 4+ cover save, and Feel No Pain conferred by a Painboy.

To be precise, it is UP to 10 models, T4/5 (important for insta-kill!), a 3+/4+ cover save (depending on turbo-boosting or not), furious charge, 24" range, 18" charge range.

Now add to that their ability to dump 30 S5 shots into a unit, half of them using Power Klaws with 3 attacks each (base),

The ability to dump 30 S5 twin-linked shots into a unit and the possibility of ALL of them using power klaws (even though that gets expensive and limits the choices to make them unique to nine).

Multi-meltas, loads of lascannon, democannon, earthshaker, thunder hammer (especially when coupled with stormshields), Seer Council, perhaps the ground burst round from the thunderfire cannon are all good tools.

Take away the two wounds and FNP, and you will have a good chance. Take away one of them and you might come out on top. Oh, any thing that can kill the painboy (mindwar, assassin...) might be worth a shot, and without the Warboss they're only Ld 7...

Centurian99 wrote:
IG - Pretty much screwed.

Nonsense. All ordnance weapons are good against the Nobs, and it's pretty easy to keep them alive long enough with infantry screens. There won't be 20 Bikers in 1500, and even in higher point games they won't have much support to shoot down the screens.

WC_Brian wrote:
Reports have been greatly exaggerated. Apparently all you have to do is play keep away the entire game and destroy their backfield. Easy as pie guy.

Do I detect traces of irony in your voice? With a 24" turbo-boost, you'll soon run out of places to hide.

9 Strength 6 Templates that ignore cover and the 4+ armour save or can cause a dangerours terrain test every turn are not to be laughed at, however 3 Thunderfire Cannons are a rather rare and somewhat fragile unit.

Ehhh...

The S6 shot does not ignore cover (4+/FNP).

The S5 shot ignores cover but does not ignore their armor save (4+/FNP).

The S4 shot that causes dangerous terrain wounds on 5s and doesn't ignore cover (4+/FNP), and dangerous terrain allows invuln saves and FNP (5+/FNP).

Arguably effective for a 300 point investment, however.

sourclams wrote:
The S4 shot that causes dangerous terrain wounds on 5s and doesn't ignore cover (4+/FNP), and dangerous terrain allows invuln saves and FNP (5+/FNP).

Arguably effective for a 300 point investment, however.

minor note. You can't make FNP saves against wounds that don't allow armor saves. That'd mean that dangerous terrain tests can be invuln'ed but not FNP'ed. It doesn't really change the point you are making.

^ Sourclams

IN the second line did you mean it doesn't ignore their armour save?

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:
To be precise, it is UP to 10 models, T4/5 (important for insta-kill!), a 3+/4+ cover save (depending on turbo-boosting or not), furious charge, 24" range, 18" charge range.

The ability to dump 30 S5 twin-linked shots into a unit and the possibility of ALL of them using power klaws (even though that gets expensive and limits the choices to make them unique to nine).

We're not talking about the guy who takes a handful of bikers here, or the guy who only takes a single squad. While, tough, those can be dealt with. We're talking about the ork player who's taking two squads of at least 10, including the painboy and warboss. Two is more than twice as tough to deal with. Remember, these Nob Biker Squads are TROOPS.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:
Multi-meltas, loads of lascannon, democannon, earthshaker, thunder hammer (especially when coupled with stormshields), Seer Council, perhaps the ground burst round from the thunderfire cannon are all good tools.

Negative, negative, negative. The only thing in that list that's worthwhile is the thunder hammer and perhaps the seer council. All those shooting weapons are essentially useless, because the only time they're shooting, they have to get past AT LEAST a 4+ cover save. Quite likely, they're trying to get through a 3+ cover save.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:
IG - Pretty much screwed.

Nonsense. All ordnance weapons are good against the Nobs, and it's pretty easy to keep them alive long enough with infantry screens. There won't be 20 Bikers in 1500, and even in higher point games they won't have much support to shoot down the screens.

#1 - There can be. I thought 20 bikers in 1500 was impossible, but someone showed me it could be done. You do only get three klaws on nobs per squad, but at 1500, it's not as much of a negative.
#2 - Ordnance is so-near to being useless that its not even funny. With the cover save, you kill one or two bikers, max. Then they multicharge your screen away, and you get to kill another one or two bikers. Then your ordnance tanks all die.

Remember, there's two of these squads that you have to deal with.

If you had five-six turns to shell the nob bikers, massed ordnance fire might be able to do the trick. But you've got to plan on only having one or two turns max.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:

WC_Brian wrote:
Reports have been greatly exaggerated. Apparently all you have to do is play keep away the entire game and destroy their backfield. Easy as pie guy.

Do I detect traces of irony in your voice? With a 24" turbo-boost, you'll soon run out of places to hide.

I think a couple cheap squads of rough riders on the charge will put a damper on nob bikers pretty quick. It's a shame more guard players don't field them.

augustus5 wrote:I think a couple cheap squads of rough riders on the charge will put a damper on nob bikers pretty quick. It's a shame more guard players don't field them.

3 Squads of 6, charging. 36 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds. 3 saved by invulnerable saves, so 6 wounds inflicted. Congratulations, you haven't killed a single model.

adielubbe wrote:The orks actually have so many 'un-fun' (gay) units,
like zagstrucks squad, snikrot, noob bikers, dreadnought squads or whatever, 30 wound squad for 120 points -which they can take 6 of, 2+ invulnerables etc etc..
that is rediculous!

Do you take any enjoyment in life? Did you cry today because the sun sets at 6?

I still think the only army that doesn't need to be worried about them is a good 'Nidzilla build.

5 Carnies-

2 Elite Boomfexs(Barbedstrangler and Talons)
2 HS Boomfexs (BS and Talons) w/tusked and combat upgrades
1 w/2 TL Devourers and shooting ugrade

1 Hive Tyrant w/2 TL Devourers

12 Warriors w/10 St6 Deathspitters

and 88 Small bugs to make slow you down.

I've wiped out a command squad w/commander equipped like nobs w/out even shooting the barbed stranglers. The small bugs just move up and block, dieing every enemy turn and leaving them open to be shot or charged by big bugs. It's actually the one power build Nidzilla doesn't have to worry about.

As for anyone else your kinda hosed though I think a Bike mounted SM list would give it a run but that's more of a chess game if both players are good.

Centurian99 wrote:

augustus5 wrote:I think a couple cheap squads of rough riders on the charge will put a damper on nob bikers pretty quick. It's a shame more guard players don't field them.

3 Squads of 6, charging. 36 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds. 3 saved by invulnerable saves, so 6 wounds inflicted. Congratulations, you haven't killed a single model.

I run 3 squads of 10, and in one of the squads I put my honorifica and a pw on the vet sgt. For half the points of a single nob bike squad, I can take it out. I can't believe I'd have a ton of trouble shooting the hell out of the other squad.

Mind you, I have not played any list like this yet, but after they assault they can't consolodate into another of my cheap squads until their next turn so I get a turn one shooting the heck out of them.

Shep wrote:

sourclams wrote:
The S4 shot that causes dangerous terrain wounds on 5s and doesn't ignore cover (4+/FNP), and dangerous terrain allows invuln saves and FNP (5+/FNP).

minor note. You can't make FNP saves against wounds that don't allow armor saves. That'd mean that dangerous terrain tests can be invuln'ed but not FNP'ed. It doesn't really change the point you are making.

Damn! Foiled again!

BGB p.75

Under the feel no pain catagory:

Last line. Voila. ''..failed dangerous terrain tests,...''

augustus5 wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:

augustus5 wrote:I think a couple cheap squads of rough riders on the charge will put a damper on nob bikers pretty quick. It's a shame more guard players don't field them.

3 Squads of 6, charging. 36 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds. 3 saved by invulnerable saves, so 6 wounds inflicted. Congratulations, you haven't killed a single model.

I run 3 squads of 10, and in one of the squads I put my honorifica and a pw on the vet sgt. For half the points of a single nob bike squad, I can take it out. I can't believe I'd have a ton of trouble shooting the hell out of the other squad.

So instead we have 56 attacks, 28 hits, 14 wounds. 4 saved by invulnerables, so 10 wounds inflicted. Once again you havent killed a single model. (I'm also assuming your sgt decides to take a hunting lance in addition to his power weapon since the power weapon will be near useless against the T5 models) Orks then proceed to kill all 350+ pts of your close combat defence in one fell swoop. Oops.

augustus5 wrote:
Mind you, I have not played any list like this yet, but after they assault they can't consolodate into another of my cheap squads until their next turn so I get a turn one shooting the heck out of them.

Thats just it, you have to really play against this or see it in action to appreciate it. They're not concerned with consolidating either. Nob biker generals are frequently masters of the 'multi-charge'. After a single charge you're not going to have much to shoot back with.

How can anyone say when 14 invulnerable saves are made that each model only fails a save once and not twice? The odds say you will lose a few models completely. Bill and Shane, don't assume that when a bunch of saves are failed, the Nobz will fail the ones that help them out the most. Someone can fail twice and in virtually all cases some of them will fail twice while others will not fail at all. So some Nobz will die.

Shooting the Nobz are tough. IN most cases people are looking at trying to kill the nobz from shooting in one volley and that will fail. If, however, you shoot the nobz enough to reduce the majority of them to 1 wound, then the next round of shooting will start to drop them quickly. This might be the only hope in dealing with them by shooting.

I feel the best way to deal with them are dreadnoughts in bunches. Double CCW dreads are cheap, safe and can drop them fast. The dreads aren't useless against other lists and so they won't harm you in a tournament

If you figure 10 bikers and a Warboss in the unit, then you figure 14 pw wounds the ork player will lose a MAX of 2 models. Thats average rolling, sure the RR's might do better and the orks worse, but the reverse is also true.

(You DID get me with that point however darth, you might indeed kill off a couple of nobs...bills example is still a flawless analysis of RR's attacking nobs though...with the numbers he gave.)

Even if the RR's DO bring 30 boys in, all with hunting lances and the Honorifica, its still no real match for the 10 bikers and Warboss. Who'll be hitting THEM on 3's all around and wounding on 3's and 2's. Nevermind the ork player will be looking to blast them off of the board in the first place if possible beforehand anyway. Will the Nobs be HURT if the RR's charge...sure they will, will the RR's (30 of them) wax the Biker unit...VERY doubtful. Definatly not probable.

The entire point is, RoughRiders are NOT an answer to NobBikers. Thats pretty much been proven here.

Hm. I routinely slaughter a Nob Biker list with my Tau force. I do run a markerlight heavy list, and my FLGS runs a house rule that if you're using two units, only one of them can be the screening unit giving a cover save. (It's a common sense rule. Basicly saying that in order for one or more units to get a screening cover save, one of those units has to be exposed and vulnerable.)