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Bikers dont checkerboard for their coversaves.

....they have a 4+ coversave out in the open thanx to all the dirty smoke that pours out of the bikes.

"routinely slaughter Nob Bikers with Tau"? I don't see that one. Congrats I guess, but I'd say someone at your store may not be up to the skill level of some of the bigger fish playing at the Tournements this year.

augustus5 wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:

augustus5 wrote:I think a couple cheap squads of rough riders on the charge will put a damper on nob bikers pretty quick. It's a shame more guard players don't field them.

3 Squads of 6, charging. 36 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds. 3 saved by invulnerable saves, so 6 wounds inflicted. Congratulations, you haven't killed a single model.

I run 3 squads of 10, and in one of the squads I put my honorifica and a pw on the vet sgt. For half the points of a single nob bike squad, I can take it out. I can't believe I'd have a ton of trouble shooting the hell out of the other squad.

Mind you, I have not played any list like this yet, but after they assault they can't consolodate into another of my cheap squads until their next turn so I get a turn one shooting the heck out of them.

hmm...3 squads of 10...

So that's 64 attacks, 32 hits, 16 wounds. 2 go on the warboss, 2 go on each of the non-powerklaw-equipped nobs, 2 go onto one of the power-klaw equipped nobs, and 1 goes onto each remaining model. at most, you're killing 5 models. More likely, you kill 2-3, and inflict another 2-3 wounds.

Orks strike back...just figuring the models that are guaranteed to strike: 13 attacks, 8 hits, 7 kills from power klaws, another 2 from the painboy. Any nobs you didn't kill add another 1-2 kills.

As dreadshane says...who cares about consolidate, when you can multicharge.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Shooting the Nobz are tough. IN most cases people are looking at trying to kill the nobz from shooting in one volley and that will fail. If, however, you shoot the nobz enough to reduce the majority of them to 1 wound, then the next round of shooting will start to drop them quickly. This might be the only hope in dealing with them by shooting.

True, but you need loota levels of firing to do that. No many armies can put out the number of high-strength shots that lootas can...even Eldar have a tough time doing that.

DarthDiggler wrote:
I feel the best way to deal with them are dreadnoughts in bunches. Double CCW dreads are cheap, safe and can drop them fast. The dreads aren't useless against other lists and so they won't harm you in a tournament

Absolutely. Ironclad spam bends the nob bikers over the table and makes them call them daddy.

RaGe-at-Random wrote:Hm. I routinely slaughter a Nob Biker list with my Tau force. I do run a markerlight heavy list, and my FLGS runs a house rule that if you're using two units, only one of them can be the screening unit giving a cover save. (It's a common sense rule. Basicly saying that in order for one or more units to get a screening cover save, one of those units has to be exposed and vulnerable.)

Quick question - are you talking about an ork army with some nobs on bikes, or are you talking about having 2 squads of nob bikers, each 10-strong, with at least 4 nobs with powerklaws (and a warboss with klaw) in the unit? Those are two entirely different thing.

Quick comment...I think Tau are the only army that can reliably take them down from shooting, thanks to their marerlights. Markerlights plus massed rail guns = dead nob bikers.

By the way, nob bikers generate their own cover saves. They have a 4+ cover save from the warbikes special rule, and get 3+ from turbo-boosting.

I would like to second Tau shooting Nob Bikers.

Markerlights can strip the cover saves, and Tau can put out a crap ton of high strength shooting to kill the Nobz.

The Nob biker list that is usually fielded in my local store only has one unit. but has Snikrot, Lootaz, and multiple Truck Squads. So far that list has only lost once, and that was versus Capt. K's three Land Raider Black Templar list.

However, I have seen the unit easily taken out by three things so far: Markerlight Heavy Tau has wiped the unit in a single shooting phase (with average rolls), Space Marine Assault Terminators charging out of a Land Raider with a Librarian with Null Zone has taken out the unit in a single assault phase (with average rolls), Multiple Land Raiders have shot them of the board over the course of a game because the Bikerz just can't kill a Raider on the move.

So there are counters out there that can fit in a "balanced competitive" list.

But anybody who wants to win a tournament these days has to field at least one unit to counter a Nob Bikers squad.

Oh, and I am going to go out on a limb here, but I don't think Nidzilla has that many counters to Nob Bikerz, I would wager a Nidzilla list will loose handily to a decent Ork army.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!
Tau are screwed!
Markerlights work for 1 unit. So to get rid of their cover saves you need 3 to 4 markerlight hits per unit. MArkerlights hit on 4+ so Effectivly you need about 7 markerlights per-squad to get rid of the cover saves,
if you combine that with a full broadside squad thats likly only 2 killed... How many points was that Tau again,
ALOT!
Next turn you die!
I reckon some of the best options are Ironclad spam (works) and Large jetseer Unit -with singing spears, fortune, and mindwar (which chops warboss for leadership or painbot no FnP) singing spears are strength 9, if you cut the Painboy from mindwar (by arguing that he only uses leadership 7) they will suffer from the spears, then you charge with, wounding on 2's and your whole unit gets 4+ re-rollable inv.
You can run 2 of these units in a 1500 game..
So am I right in saying: "goodbye bikers!" ?

Nids have barbed stranglers on fexes and anything with implant attack. That really racks up the kill count.

I love how this always progresses from "How do I deal with Nob bikes?" to "How to deal with a maxxed out cheese unit of Nob bikes," to "How to deal with TWO units of cheesed out bikes," to "How to deal with two units of cheesed out bikes fielded by a 4-time GT winner."

Bear in mind that, while there are a lot of srs bizness 40k players on here, the OP was basically just asking what the fuss was about, and it has turned into yet another doom and gloom cheese thread about how the tourneys will be packed to the gills with them, blah blah blah. I am on 12 years of 40k now, and in my experience, 98% of the time, it is never as bad as the forums say it is, whether that forum be DakkaDakka, Warseer, the B&C, or any other.

Just my $.02

For my answer to the OP, the Nob bikers are one of the things that GW has given to Ork players as a way of saying "Thanks for sticking around with Orks through all that time when the only halfway viable competitive army was Speed Freeks, and even that was iffy."

adielubbe wrote:NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!
Tau are screwed!
Markerlights work for 1 unit. So to get rid of their cover saves you need 3 to 4 markerlight hits per unit. MArkerlights hit on 4+ so Effectivly you need about 7 markerlights per-squad to get rid of the cover saves,
if you combine that with a full broadside squad thats likly only 2 killed... How many points was that Tau again,
ALOT!
Next turn you die!
I reckon some of the best options are Ironclad spam (works) and Large jetseer Unit -with singing spears, fortune, and mindwar (which chops warboss for leadership or painbot no FnP) singing spears are strength 9, if you cut the Painboy from mindwar (by arguing that he only uses leadership 7) they will suffer from the spears, then you charge with, wounding on 2's and your whole unit gets 4+ re-rollable inv.
You can run 2 of these units in a 1500 game..
So am I right in saying: "goodbye bikers!" ?

Meh. Tau are NOT screwed.
My STANDARD List. One turn of shooting. Stealth Marker Squad will hit with an average 4 ML Hits. Every FW squad also has a Team Leader with ML and a HW Target Lock. I WILL have the Marker hits needed to negate the cover. My Elites choices are Helios Configuration Crisis Suits. Each Suit can take out a single nob by it's self. Fusion Blasters, Seeker Missles, and Railguns all cause Instant Death. All three also penetrate their armor, leaving the "supertough" Nob's unit with ONLY their Inv save. Good Tau Shooting CAN take out a Nob biker unit. Not only that, it can do so without 9 Broadsides on the board.

Nob bikers...

adielubbe wrote:NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!
Tau are screwed!
Markerlights work for 1 unit. So to get rid of their cover saves you need 3 to 4 markerlight hits per unit. MArkerlights hit on 4+ so Effectivly you need about 7 markerlights per-squad to get rid of the cover saves,
if you combine that with a full broadside squad thats likly only 2 killed... How many points was that Tau again,
ALOT!
Next turn you die!

You obviously haven't fought against Markerlight Heavy Tau. Which would be an army of at least 10 Markerlights on the table. Technically you only need three hits to strip the cover save down. Then the rest of the army cleans up.

Tau shooting is all about target priority and determining where to apply fire power and when. Yes, you may devote most of your army to one or two units, but you make sure those units are dead.

Centurian99 wrote:
Yep, Brian's as sick as I am of having people bring up bad counters to the nob bikers and declaring them to be effective, reliable tactics.

As I've said, unless you want to rely on ridiculous amounts of luck, you need to be able to do three things reliably.

#1 - Inflict S8+ wounds (or cause instant death)
#2 - Ignore/negate FNP
#3 - Ignore/negate the cover/armor save.

Armies that rely on shooting are more or less screwed, because they simply can't negate the cover save. The best they can get is two of three, which may work, or may not work, depending on luck. Odds are against it.

First off Cent, I've got respect for your posts and opinions. But I politely disagree. I humbly present my battle report as evidence that shooting armies with redonkulous amounts of firepower can beat nob bikers. My list in that matchup wasn't perfect. It could have easily included snikrot if it gave up the mirror match win. Whether or not it was perfectly tuned, it is a decent example of a nob biker list. It was very easily handled by an army with only 9 strength 8 shots.

The SAGs ignore FNP, and the kannons inflict ID, but I would say that the majority of the heavy lifting was done by the lootas and the charging shoota boys.

Darth really touched on what the biggest problem in the nob bikers translation from theoryhammer to warhammer. You don't really ever get to take 11 wounds without losing a model, you have to be super lucky, or be taking one or two wounds at a time from someone's MSU army.

And like Shane reminded everyone, after the unit has been softened, the equivalent shooting scoops the unit. If you can survive turn 2 decently intact, you can table this army.

To survive turn 2. deploy and maneuver as well as you can to mitigate multi-charges. Nob bikers always have cover so don't hesitate to spread your units as wide as possible and stack them. I know you and everyone else is tired of people giving tips without back up, but please refer to my batrep to see that it 'really happened'. A combination of terrain and good deployment bought my opponent just enough time to table me. It was a razors edge, if he failed to significantly damage the nob unit that consolidated off of his kannon unit, then he would have lost about 80% of his remaining army in a massive multi-charge. But he gave himself the time he needed.

Shep wrote:
First off Cent, I've got respect for your posts and opinions. But I politely disagree. I humbly present my battle report as evidence that shooting armies with redonkulous amounts of firepower can beat nob bikers. My list in that matchup wasn't perfect. It could have easily included snikrot if it gave up the mirror match win. Whether or not it was perfectly tuned, it is a decent example of a nob biker list. It was very easily handled by an army with only 9 strength 8 shots.

True, I read that. But lootas are something of a special case in my book...as far as I can tell, no other army can put out comparable firepower to a squad of lootas, at that points cost. Figuring in the Ork ballistic skill, lootas put out so many S7 shots that it isn't even funny. The other shooting from a shooty ork mob is just icing.

You're right, in that it's tough to use probability to model what happens when multi-shot weapons are firing at the nob bikers. But regardless, you still need the ability to cause lots and lots of saves. Orks with lootas can do that. but right now there's not really anything that compares to lootas in terms of volume of fire.

Would three vindicators and two masters of the chapter be a good counter? Its about the cost of a bike nob squad with warboss and drops 5 str10 ap2 pie plates on your first turn. Depending on deployment that could fairly easily wipe out the squad in one go couldn't it? After that all you would need to do is force them to assault a 10 man marine squad spaced at max coherency covering your army (~30" line) and then do the same thing the turn after, albeit with a little less firepower because the masters are one shot wonders. That would even leave you with another 750 or so points (assuming 1500 point game) to place into other units for transport/capture/tankshock/firepower.

Big templates don't get around the cover save or invul save. Sure, it'll hurt, but with making a 3+ or 4+ cover save and a 5+ invul save (AP2 = no FNP), you're still looking at loosing only a few nobz (say, 6 are hit - you're losing 1 or 2 models). You could dump all three templates onto the same unit and potentially wipe them out, but it's more likely that you only kill a few (like 3 or 4).

A lot of the trick is denying the multi-charge, and I think that is true throughout Fifth Ed. Since they get their own cover save, there is no reason not to put your units in long lines behind each other, and that would deny the multi-charge. They charge one unit, wipe it out. You have the problem of a unit of Nob bikers sitting in front of your army, but that's better than having them engaged with a unit - or having wiped out all units on one section of the board.

The way to get rid of Nob bikers is to evolve the meta-game. When every SM commander is packing TH/SS termies in a landraider, orks will stop taking Nob Bikers.

Big templates don't get around the cover save or invul save. Sure, it'll hurt, but with making a 3+ or 4+ cover save and a 5+ invul save (AP2 = no FNP), you're still looking at loosing only a few nobz (say, 6 are hit - you're losing 1 or 2 models). You could dump all three templates onto the same unit and potentially wipe them out, but it's more likely that you only kill a few (like 3 or 4).

1.5x5=7.5 dead. With 2.5 remaining it's statistically highly unlikely that both the warboss and painboy remain. If the warboss is gone then the unit will likely be pinned by the blasts (or it will just break or get tank shocked), if the painboy is gone then you can just bolter them to death. Keep in mind that the alpha strike here sits on top of the other half of our army, while the ork backfield is likely quite thin. If you deploy correctly the attrition fight against the remaining squad will be all too easy to win. Unfortunatly this army isn't in the marine top tier, so like most lists that can easily handle nob bikes, it would have trouble with other top tier entries.

I don't know why, but I made the mental error of a cover save and a invul save, not one or the other. So, 6 models hit, lose 2-3 after cover saves. Yeah, it'll hurt to drop 5 templates on them in one turn.

Anyone think of taking a Vindicare to snipe the Painboy? In fifth, he seems to have more utility. CSM Icons, painboys - even special characters like Telion. I don't know that he ever earns his points back, but it could make life uncomfortable for others.

It's a 700-point unit, it should be ugly.

The vindicare likely will never make his points back, but he's great for utility. He's kind of poor against the painboy though. It would take him all game to try and shoot him off his bike.

one thing I've noticed, is that some people are assuming that things that can deal with a single squad, or deal with under-sized squads, will scale up and work against the nob biker army.

It may...but chances are it won't. Because when you've got 10 models in the squad, including the warboss and painboy, and every model is unique, and every model has a 5++ save, and you've got at least four powerklaws backing up the warboss's klaw, and you've got two of these squads, which are Scoring units....

is that there's a world of difference between dealing with a small (5-6 models) squad of nob bikers, or even a single large squad of nob bikers, and the full out nob bikers army, with 2 squads of 10.

A single squad is much easier to deal with, and smaller biker squads are much, much easier to deal with.

dietrich wrote:
Anyone think of taking a Vindicare to snipe the Painboy? In fifth, he seems to have more utility. CSM Icons, painboys - even special characters like Telion. I don't know that he ever earns his points back, but it could make life uncomfortable for others.

Considering that his chance of actually hurting the painboy is somewhere around 13 percent, that's not such a good idea. Especially since he'll have to do that twice, unless he gets really lucky with one of his special shots.

Nah I'm talking about 2 squads of 10 bikes making up most of the army. I'm not saying they aren't a bitch to kill, just that a good Tau force with a compitent general behind it can do so.

It's a 700-point unit, it should be ugly.

We're taking about a 700 pt unit. That almost half an army in a 1500 pt battle.
The problem that the enemy has is that she generally cannot bring an equal amount of units (700 pt) to bear and to counter the Nobz Bikers (in one turn).

Centurian99 wrote:
We're not talking about the guy who takes a handful of bikers here, or the guy who only takes a single squad.

I propose to include them as well because I believe this is much more likely to happen in the vast majority of games. Hardly is every Ork player going to buy 20 Bikes and play that army only.

The thread title is Nob Bikers. You and others might assume one specific layout or you may not. People may chance upon Nob Bikers in your run-of-the-mill pickup game, in a tourney, at home against a friend or whatnot. Not everyone will be facing 20 Nobs all the time - tourneys are a relatively small minority of all games played, and even there some Ork players will field a horde. It is much more helpful to outline explicitly what would / could / might work in which circumstances.

Therefore, when someone asks whether "they are really that good", we must reply that sometimes they are, and sometimes they are not. I do not think this differentiation was made abundantly clear.

While, tough, those can be dealt with. We're talking about the ork player who's taking two squads of at least 10, including the painboy and warboss. Two is more than twice as tough to deal with. Remember, these Nob Biker Squads are TROOPS.

Yes, that's all true - except I'm still doubtful that the other layout cannot be dealt with as you seem to imply. I find Nob Bikers with serious support at least as dangerous as more Nob Bikers without any support. Usig them as a abit/sacrifice/lure that can suck up some serious firepower makes even smaller mobs valuable. Oh, and I did not forget that they are TROOPS at any point.

Negative, negative, negative. The only thing in that list that's worthwhile is the thunder hammer and perhaps the seer council. All those shooting weapons are essentially useless, because the only time they're shooting, they have to get past AT LEAST a 4+ cover save. Quite likely, they're trying to get through a 3+ cover save.

By the Primarchs, you ARE negative, aren't you? Really guys, it's been established that they are tough as nails by now. Oh yes, if the other player is an unparalleled master in multicharges, and a vaunted "top dog" in the tourney scene, and the other guy rolls abysmally, and the Orks shoot AND have a 3+ cover save at the same time, and never ever lose powerklaws, and suck up all the ID hits on the Warboss all the time - then we might as well concede and pack up.

Just looking at the stats and guns and list making is only half the story. They only get that 3+ cover save from turbo-boosting. As soon as they wish to assault or shoot something, they have a 4+ cover save. While that is good, it is nothing really special. It only becomes so powerful when combined with the rest. Feeding them sacrificial squads to take away the cover save is one way to try to tackle them. Take away FNP and armour and negate 2 wounds and T4/5 through S8/low AP, and you're looking at dead bikers.

#1 - There can be. I thought 20 bikers in 1500 was impossible, but someone showed me it could be done. You do only get three klaws on nobs per squad, but at 1500, it's not as much of a negative.

That's precisely my point - no-one seems to know about what kind of biker mob(s) we're actually talking. IF there are indeed that many bikers in such comparatively small games, then they are not that strong. They're still as tough as it gets but much more easy to handle because they've got no support and one can concentrate everything on them. Couple them with Snikrot, Lootas and whatnot and they become much more threatening even with reduced numbers.

#2 - Ordnance is so-near to being useless that its not even funny. With the cover save, you kill one or two bikers, max. Then they multicharge your screen away, and you get to kill another one or two bikers. Then your ordnance tanks all die.

You're so frightened of the Nobs that you've already given in it appears. There are ways around the better cover save, and beware if they should ever fail a Ld test afterwards (even if that isn't likely). How many do you think one would hit with a Battlecannon (or even better, S10)?

Multi-charge my screens, set up one behind the other? "All my ordnance tanks die"? You mean the ones set up on different sides of the board?

Pray tell, do they grow wings as well? One squad turbo-boosts, I shoot and kill 1-2 (and that's a worst case scenario because I actually reckon there'll be three tanks). They charge the first squad and defeat it, thereby taking away the cover save. I shoot again, killing 2-3. They charge the second squad and defeat it. I shoot and kill another 2-3. And then I probably still have the points for a third and fourth squad. It isn't difficult to field 6 squads and 3 ordnance tanks as Guard (one as a back-up for misses) in 1500 points. Not at all. The same thing happens in the other corner, or he concentrates his bikes and bunches up. And I still haven't used my third tank in this scenario because it's kept in reserve to appear wherever needed, nor did any of my meltas/lascannon/whatever in the squads get to shoot. Now Kill Points would be hard but so would be a 5 objective mission.

Remember, there's two of these squads that you have to deal with.

There's also 80+ men in screens and 3 ordnance tanks they have to deal with (and probably even more on their way towards the objectives). And that army isn't a one trick pony tailored to do one trick only either.

If you had five-six turns to shell the nob bikers, massed ordnance fire might be able to do the trick. But you've got to plan on only having one or two turns max.

I demonstrated how that can work. I don't presume that it works all the time. And no, I don't plan on having only one turn to do anything. In that case, there's no point in even setting up. That's simply not how it works. One must instead plan to have more turns to do anything useful (even though full awareness of what one is up against never hurts).

#1 - Inflict S8+ wounds (or cause instant death)
#2 - Ignore/negate FNP
#3 - Ignore/negate the cover/armor save.

Ordnance inflicts S8+ wounds and causes ID.
Ordnances negates FNP.
Ordnance doesn't negate cover saves. However, I believe as long as you can cancel two of their three strengths, you could do well.

I really fail to understand why such a thing that does what you ask of it to such a degree can be called unreliable and ineffective. Perhaps you can elucidate. What ridiculous amount of luck do I need in setting up in such a fashion and blast away?

Centurian99 wrote:one thing I've noticed, is that some people are assuming that things that can deal with a single squad, or deal with under-sized squads, will scale up and work against the nob biker army.

It may...but chances are it won't. Because when you've got 10 models in the squad, including the warboss and painboy, and every model is unique, and every model has a 5++ save, and you've got at least four powerklaws backing up the warboss's klaw, and you've got two of these squads, which are Scoring units....

A single squad is much easier to deal with, and smaller biker squads are much, much easier to deal with.

I'm sure they are - on their own. That goes without saying, doesn't it? Everything is easier to deal with in small amounts. In these cases though you cannot ignore the other units the Ork player brought along. Oh, and the 5++ save isn't really that great, especially when they get a better cover save.

By the way, the Warboss still doesn't get FNP despite some heated debate. :-)

ITT:


We all get it, they're good. Easiest way to defeat the list? Hit them in the comp and sportsmanship score after the game.

inb4 bawwing about how soft scores are broken, etc.

Wow what a dicussion :O!

With all this discussion on how impossible the standard 20 Nob Bikers are, and how to counter them, when do you think the pendulum will swing the other way, and we'll start seeing a little more variety in the Nob Bike lists. Several people that I play with have started downgrading to just 1 squad of 10 and stacking more bodies(loota spam) as everyone else scrambles do deal with the bikes.

That's the nature of the metagame. When all the marines are bringing Vulkan, 2x LRs, and TH/SS termies, (for less points than 20 nob bikers), you'll see them a lot less.

Illeix wrote:Yesterday, I was at an apoc game with 11 players, and someone brought 2 squads of Noob Bikers.

They chewed through 40 guardsmen, 20 tac marines, 6 terminators and were about halfway through a titan before a squadron of russes finally got into range.

Overpowered? That's a resounding yes!

only 40 guardsmen? what's that, like 15 points of models?

The one thing I want to add to all this is a comment about the guy who said to hit them where it hurts....in the sportsmenship. I hate guys like this! Cry, you got beat and now you want to get even. Guys like this get kicked out of tournies where I play. Thats all I have to say.....

brian007 wrote:The one thing I want to add to all this is a comment about the guy who said to hit them where it hurts....in the sportsmenship. I hate guys like this! Cry, you got beat and now you want to get even. Guys like this get kicked out of tournies where I play. Thats all I have to say.....

Then I'd personally be ashamed to play tournaments there. Sportsmanship has a place in this game, Win at all costs mindset should be frowned upon. This is a hobby, meant to be fun for everyone, not just a game, meant to be won or lost.

Sportsmanship is great when everybody's a sportsman, but against so many players, especially strangers, it quickly becomes the "Did you beat me and how much do I want to stick it to you" score. There' a place for sportsmanship as a quantifiable effect, but it's on the margins as a tiebreaker-only sort of thing.

Likewise I don't think playing an Internet-Deck list makes you a poor sport or even a bad gamer. Maybe, just maybe, they simply find the most enjoyment out of this kind of list. It's also quite possible that they thought it up themselves.

I agree with sourclams and what he said. What I was saying is this. When you go to a tourny you sould want to play against the best, thats why it is a tourny. So if the guy you are playing is a fun guy to play with and he happens to have a better list than you and he wins why would you give him a low score for sportsmanship? Bunker said that is the way to beat this list and to me I am sorry to say that sucks! Now every game store has one of those guys who has to win and even in fun mess around games they have to bring the best. I agree that sucks and it would be your choice not to play with that guy and he would get the picture. BUT if you go to a tourny you should know that the best is going to be there and you may play it. I have been beat by real good lists and as long as I enjoyed the game (I do not have to win to have fun) I will give a good score. It sounds to me that Mr Sportsman Bunker is a poor sport and that is how he "gets even" for not being able to win. Fun games in the game store are great but there is a time and a place to play your best and win. I will find it very hard to believe anyone who says they pay to get into a tourny and brings a list that is just for fun that they can't win with. Anyway, win or loose it is always fun for me as long as the other player is fun to play against.