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Again great discussion guys. I do believe anything can be modeled anyway you want. They made what they made based on a template.. so to say you couldnt sculpt an oriental miniature is just plain stupid. Other companies do it all the time. Its an excuse to say its too hard...

I am an artist myself and when i am trying to draw something accurately i draw it accuately and if i dont know how to draw it accurately i either dont draw it or i learn how. To say that the artists GW chose to do their sculpts based on there personal preferences is not a smart way of looking at it. Im sure people submitted their works and they chose what they wanted. Did any of them ever submit pics of different races... probably not.. so it came down to do i want this imperial guard guy to have a pointy nose or a flat one. . it cam down to what those who were deciding was best was also aesthetically pleasing to them.

We fear what we dont understand. Please dont say that because there are other races in the game makes it ok to inaccurately depict the human race.. or only depict one portion of it. Its a concious effort on the part of people to decide if and when its appropriate to include the best cross section of humanity. GW did not do this. they created Superhumans from a gene stock and they are all the same race. I can understand that, makes perfect sense... but in the imperial guard i would hope that in the 41st millenium the powers that be didnt abide by the same logic as our leaders during the world wars. If you are caucasian you can be a hero and fight for your country if your any other race or creed, color you stay in the rear with the gear.

Someone made a great point that the emperor may have been Jewish or Arabic...its so typical then that he be misrepresented... not like it hasnt happened to other great religious entities.... Jesus, God...

Ugh i dont want to digress. I think GW made a great product appealing to a certain crowd and the crowdsit could appeal to need to help them to identify with something they will spend endless hours and untold dollars to personalize with paint...

Again can you show me some minis like this wherein:
1) scupts only
2) can be differentiated at a tabletop level
3) themselves could not be viewed as so aggregious as to be dscriminatory?

Seriously, this concept has peaked my interest.

Honestly its stupid taking a fictional universe so seriously, but if you think about it that far in the future what makes you think there will be any racial distinction at all?
As far as gw not modeling "ethnic" characters, how would you suggest they do so without being completely over the top stereotypical? What would you say if you saw a new model that had huge frog eyes and a boot lip? I know it's a vulgar description but you get the idea, I don't see how you can make racial distinctions on this scale without taking it to a ridiculous and offensive level.
I say paint your army however you choose, that is the general idea...

Didn't read this whole thing but the Tallarn are middle eastern - ish (described as dark skinned, they come from a desert world) and i think the pardus might be black, i thought i heard something about "the dark skin of the pardus...."blah blah. It's not only white people sir ;P

Here is an example of miniatures at our same scale depicting race.. throw some power armoron them and the face will be fine to show diversity.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/28mm-miniatures-for-Pulp-Era-Copplestone-Darkest-Africa_W0QQitemZ280301933025QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090113?IMSfp=TL090113127002r39295

As some have stated,this is a GAME and not a true reflection of culture now or as at will be in thousands of years.
Personaly I don't feel GW is racist or I certianly would'nt be spending my money on their products as my girlfriend is Black&Puerto Rican, I am German & Native American, and our two children are a mix of all four,and probly a much more accurate depiction of "skin tone in the future".
I belive there's enough real Racism in the world,you don't have to look to little plastic men to find it.

http://www.chilternminiatures.co.uk/html/modern_forces.html

So i guess the idea of can it or cant it be done is settled... its just a matter of will it be done.

I must admit though the sterotypes exist there as well.. the African guys are insurgents and depicted as being wounded while the DELTA FORCES are again the elite of the elite.. but noone of color in those ranks let alone depicted as wounded.

Ugh im not saying GW is racist.. lets get that very clear.. what i am saying is do we feel that the player base would broaden if other cultures and races within humanity were represented with heros and armies.

Is GW culturally Biased?

windswept313 wrote:

So i guess the idea of can it or cant it be done is settled... its just a matter of will it be done

It's up to the collector to paint his/her own models how they want.

Sorry I can't tell the difference there. I went to the website. Except for the hair I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Frankly much of that is an example of what I was talking about- you mean get thrown on your keister for some of that.

http://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/range.php?range=DA

Lint wrote:

windswept313 wrote:

So i guess the idea of can it or cant it be done is settled... its just a matter of will it be done

It's up to the collector to paint his/her own models how they want.

i understand i can paint my guys black if i want them to be black.. if i want them to be asian i just paint the hair black... hmm the eyes well i guess i get some green stuff and change it .. or tell the person i am playing against yeah that guy with the sword leading the guard is japanese....

I know i can paint them... but GW could help a little with the things i cant do.

IMHO it doesn't matter what skin color you make your little human army men. They are all ONE race: HUMAN. I am of asian heritage, but that isn't my RACE. My race is human. I had a TYRANID race army. I now play a ORK race army as well as a HUMAN race army.

When I paint my Human Race Army I tend to go for more tans and brown since I identify with that skin tone since I've been that skin tone since I was born.

Quoted from Dictionary.com

"Usage Note: The notion of race is nearly as problematic from a scientific point of view as it is from a social one. European physical anthropologists of the 17th and 18th centuries proposed various systems of racial classifications based on such observable characteristics as skin color, hair type, body proportions, and skull measurements, essentially codifying the perceived differences among broad geographic populations of humans. The traditional terms for these populations—Caucasoid (or Caucasian), Mongoloid, Negroid, and in some systems Australoid—are now controversial in both technical and nontechnical usage, and in some cases they may well be considered offensive. (Caucasian does retain a certain currency in American English, but it is used almost exclusively to mean "white" or "European" rather than "belonging to the Caucasian race," a group that includes a variety of peoples generally categorized as nonwhite.) The biological aspect of race is described today not in observable physical features but rather in such genetic characteristics as blood groups and metabolic processes, and the groupings indicated by these factors seldom coincide very neatly with those put forward by earlier physical anthropologists. Citing this and other points—such as the fact that a person who is considered black in one society might be nonblack in another—many cultural anthropologists now consider race to be more a social or mental construct than an objective biological fact."

MHO for what it's worth.

Ok better example, http://www.chilternminiatures.co.uk/html/modern_forces_2.html

Frazzled wrote:Again can you show me some minis like this wherein:
1) scupts only
2) can be differentiated at a tabletop level
3) themselves could not be viewed as so aggregious as to be dscriminatory?

Seriously, this concept has peaked my interest.

I think your 3rd point is quite salient here. This issue has been raised at a few GD and tournies etc that I've been to, and the general response was that at the scale they are dealing/modelling in, it is very hard to try and show ethnicity without gross caricaturing.

This was one of the reasons they have refrained from specifically making an "Asian" themed fantasy race so far apparently.

They said though that, obviously, players can and should paint their models in any colours they want.

I think more than anything they just try to no to offend by producing something that might turn out a bit crass.

I remember years back in one of the Journal issues they did some jungle/Vietnam themed models and ended the article with a line along the gist of " get out their and kill some g**ks !".

Swiftly followed an issue or two later by an apology, as it seems the author didn't twig that was a .... somewhat racially charged term.

Orksn and orcs are pretty much (originally) based upon British "soccer" hooligans of the 80s.

EDIT : To clarify : I hope I don't offend anyone with the term used, I hope people can see whay I mention it here.Thanks.

If it is really important to you you could just kitbash with some historical miniatures to get asian looking heads, even though not all of us asians have almond shaped eyes and yellowish tint to our skin.

Perhaps to a certian extent there is some 'cultural bias",but that simply may be GW reflecting it's "target audince",which let's face it is white males.
So,sure GW could broaden their represintation of other races with in their models,but much of that could be done by the modeler him/her self .
I do however see your point

Im half white and half black.. i identify with alot of things.. im just asking why GW chose such a narrow view of humanity so many years in the future.. and why all literature, media, marketing, fluff, and everything 40k even fantasy is still so narrow when there is soe much room for cool minis that are broader in there scope of humanity.

Again, how is that different from the stereotypical fist pumping bald sergeant windswept?

I will say that GW could use more head designs, in a big way. Mayhaps this is more of a issue on the WFB side?

Millwaaall! Millwaaall!

I was told off for calling the Orks the Millwall fans of the 40K universe. This was on the EoT in the good old, bad old days.

I don't think they need to model up a Rasta SM chapter or something. They should just put some pictures of figures with non-white skin in their photo shoots. It can't be too difficult.

reds8n wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Again can you show me some minis like this wherein:
1) scupts only
2) can be differentiated at a tabletop level
3) themselves could not be viewed as so aggregious as to be dscriminatory?

Seriously, this concept has peaked my interest.

I think your 3rd point is quite salient here. THis issue has been raised at a few GD and tournies etc that I've been to, and the general response was that at the scale they are dealing/modelling in, it is very hard to try and show ethnicity without gross caricaturing.

This was one of the reasons they have refrained from specifically making an "asian" themed fantasy race so far apparntly.

They said though that, obviously, players can and should paint their models in any colours they want.

I think more than anything they just try to no to offend by producing something that might turn out a bit crass.

I remember years back in one of the Journal issues they did some jungle/Vietnam themed models and ended the article with a line along the gist of " get out their and kill some [see forum posting rules] !".

Swiftly followed an issue or two later by an apology, as it seems the author didn't twig that was a .... somewhat racialy charged term.

Orksn and orcs are pretty much (originally) based upon British "soccer" hooligans of the 80s.

I appreciate your response here and you are right it could come across as cartoony if done right but i must admit alot of the guardsmen look cartoony as well already.. But if i take out the modeling aspect of the game and reduce myself to accepting the lame excuse that someone cant model a decent looking Asian guy or Black Guy or whatever else. Where is it in the fluff and the pictures and the posters, magazines, books... blah blah blah.


Think about it this way im sure a few of you were writing something in response to this topic and found yourself deleting what you wrote because you werent sure who the audience is goig to be... you dont want to be labeled something you dont think you are....its the nature of the conversation. This is the mind set that prevents diversity in the game people afraid they will get it wrong and hurt someones feelings. When actually its hurtful to exclude as well.

Damned if you do damned if you dont

The whole game is cartoony.

In my view, for GW to include well-done non-white images in the fluff would only annoy racists and who cares about that?

If GW can put that kind of effort into modeling different head sculpts, I say they not do it and fix the sloppy molds and sculpts they have now. Any one who's put together a Thunderfire Cannon or a Tau Pirrana can testify to that fact.

I'm all for diversity, but the reality is that GW can't even get a round base to go in a round hole. I'd rather them get that right before worrying about if a particular heritage is represented in the models.

All my army are all one colour with good reason!

I'd have to buy more paint to do other colours

Frazzled wrote:Again, how is that different from the stereotypical fist pumping bald sergeant windswept?

I will say that GW could use more head designs, in a big way. Mayhaps this is more of a issue on the WFB side?

QFT

Your absolutely right that their are stereotypes in all things.. but im not asking for dreads on a black guy im just asking for more diversity represented in the Human race in the 40k franchise. It would be cool and i think if a black kid were walking by a display case in a book store and saw the image of a 8 foot tall power armor clad black guy he may find it interesting enough to pick up that book and read it. Same goes for Asian and everything else.

Same thing for the women of 40k include images that invoke an interest in more than just your historical demographic of buyers. Maybe they are afraid the white kids wont pick up the book if there is a black space marine on the cover?

Has anyone else mentioned the fact that the Emperor isn't a white guy? If they have I'm sorry that I glanced over it, but that has always been one of the most interesting things to me considering the culture of the people who created the 40K universe.

@ Mr. Windswept.

Indeed, but I think they really don't want to make or risk models that might seem like a cartoon caricature on racial grounds. I take the point and agree with regards to the fluff and pictures, but : In the stories they often don't really say one way or the other. Sure I tend to picture "character X" as Caucasian, but that's my heritage so I default there. And for the artwork, I think they try to only really depict what they produce generally, and again AFAIK, all/most of their in house artists are Caucasian, and again I think it's more a default mindset thing. Area for improvement there though I agree.

Neconilis wrote:Has anyone else mentioned the fact that the Emperor isn't a white guy? If they have I'm sorry that I glanced over it, but that has always been one of the most interesting things to me considering the culture of the people who created the 40K universe.

ok what is he then.. either way its not the space marines im really concerned about its the whole human race as depicted in 40k.. just too narrow a vision.

reds8n wrote:@ Mr. Windswept.

Indeed, but I think they really don't want to make or risk models that might seem like a cartoon caricature on racial grounds. I take the point and agree with regards to the fluff and pictures, but : In the stories they often don't really say one way or the other. Sure I tend to picture "character X" as Caucasian, but that's my heritage so I default there. And for the artwork, I think they try to only really depict what they produce generally, and again AFAIK, all/most of their in house artists are Caucasian, and again I think it's more a default mindset thing. Area for improvement there though I agree.

Cool now we are where i wanted to get to.. do most of us agree that it wouldnt hurt to improve on the depiction of humanity in 40k? Thats all.

windswept313 wrote:

Neconilis wrote:Has anyone else mentioned the fact that the Emperor isn't a white guy? If they have I'm sorry that I glanced over it, but that has always been one of the most interesting things to me considering the culture of the people who created the 40K universe.

ok what is he then.. either way its not the space marines im really concerned about its the whole human race as depicted in 40k.. just too narrow a vision.

He was born in central Anatolia, so that would likely make him Turkish.

Please show where, with few exceptions, the human race is defined at all in 40K.

*Names are nonspecific
*Many of the units are derived from different historical cultures
*Very rarely is skin tone defined.
*I'll grant more of the art could be refelctive (the good stuff anyway). however, most of the drawings are so, er abstract, that most ethnicities could be represented.