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Ok Rant on ---

First off i love the game.. been playing it a long time. Although there has always been one thing about the game that has botherred me constantly. "in the 41st Millenium there is only war and white people...?"

Alright i have read alot of the books, all the codecies, fluff a plenty, all that good stuff. Where are the people of color in the far future? Ok there is a Pedro, Toquemada Coteaz...maybe a couple other ethnic names but all in all the game has really limited its audience with its sense of non cultural awareness. I know there is much i havent read yet but lets see hmmm.. out of the million billion people in the imperium, and across the galaxy there are no mentions or even models that slightly resemble people of different descent. No Asians (oh wait maybe this is the TAU) No Latinos, No Blacks (no this isnt the lord of the Rings and the Orks are not the Brothers). No there is only one race represented.

I have talked to many of my friends in the past that were not the typical gamer profile, and i tried very hard to get them interested in the game. In the end they looked into it and saw another niche where culturally the game did not match up with the real world. I think GW tshould take a hard look at its game and look to include more diversity. Many of you might say well the Salamanders are represented as having Black skin.. but the skin color you paint does not make them "Black" Also are you telling me of all the imperial worlds inducting into the guard there isnt one person of color recruited. "Catachan Jungle Fighters? I mean cmon if that isnt a good home for stupid a sterotype, what is?

Rant Off ---

Ok i have black friends i play with and Spanish and a couple asian fellas as well. Im just dissapointed in the way the game is marketed and displayed it just doesnt feel right to me. Ill keep playing it and hope for the future.

Lets try to keep this discussion civil im not trying to mock anyone in fact im trying to find out if others have thought or felt the same.

My Catachan army has black people in it.

The problem isn't that there aren't people of other decents, it's that GW's artists just don't paint or draw them(outside of Salamanders). It's just when you're in a majority white culture like Britain(and America, there's only a single Black guy in WM, too), you tend not to think about diversity when it comes down to little army men.

The very first Gaunt's Ghosts novel has a Guard army with dark skin(the way they're described, they sound like they're of Indian decent). Again, they don't not exist, it's just GW tends to forget about them.

Thanks for the reply. I dont think anyone attempting to represent humainity in the future should "Forget" anything.

Everyone wants to have a hero someone they can relate to. Im of the opinion that a game should appeal to many. i know that little army men is just that little army men.. I do remember the huge issue that come up with Barbie dolls not representing different cultures because parents want their children to identify with something.. Not find inherent flaws in that which they idoloze. Look at it this way with the election of Obama i can finally tell my children with all honesty, yes you can be the president of the united states.

Its just something to consider i think. Maybe we could write a letter to GW and ask them why.

I've seen some very well done IG armies with predominately black troopers. And I don't mean the army was primed black and then fielded...

I suspect that a lot of it comes from the idea of "you draw/write what you know" based on your cultural history.

Maybe this is because in the Dark Age of Technology they weren't racist so they didn't stuff colony ships full of just Indians or just Mexicans or whatever. And minor genetic variance such as skin tone would be long gone after 40.000 years of intermixing, anyway.

As for the lack of ethnic names, I'm not seeing all that many plain English names, either.

If you write them(and by all means, do, it may get them thinking, although they do/did produce Dark Flesh), they'll probably mention that it just didn't cross their minds(they probably don't comes across non-whites much so it's probably something subconscious). I've known several people of every race that play/have played the game and the thing I notice now that I think about it is that most of them still painted their Little Army Men white, IIRC(again, except Sallies cause it specifically mentions them being Black, as opposed to the bleached skin of other chapters).

windswept313 wrote: "in the 41st Millenium there is only war and white people...?"

Pretty much.

windswept313 wrote: game has really limited its audience with its sense of non cultural awareness.

I'm OK with this.

windswept313 wrote: Orks are not the Brothers

WFB Spearchukkas and Savage Orks, along with Orks playing the Zulus in the GW-official 40k re-enactment of Rourke's Drift says, loud and clear: "YES, THEY ARE!"

Orcs and Orks play to the grossest stereotypes of deepest, darkest Africa from the days of Rudyard Kipling and such.

Aside from GW making acual Pygmy models, "back in the day"...

windswept313 wrote: Salamanders are represented as having Black skin.. but the skin color you paint does not make them "Black"

In GW's universe, "YES IT DOES!"

windswept313 wrote: "Catachan Jungle Fighters? I mean cmon if that isnt a good home for stupid a sterotype, what is?

As above, Orc "Spearchukkas". I kid you not.


Seriously, though, I'm pretty thankful that GW doesn't delve deeper into non-European themes (stereotypes). For the most part, the Brits to a thoroughly offensive job of it every fething time. It's far better that they just leave well enough alone. In general, it's better to let the handful of player of color define their own "ethnic" forces within 40k than to have GW do it.

lord_blackfang wrote:Maybe this is because in the Dark Age of Technology they weren't racist so they didn't stuff colony ships full of just Indians or just Mexicans or whatever. And minor genetic variance such as skin tone would be long gone after 40.000 years of intermixing, anyway.

As for the lack of ethnic names, I'm not seeing all that many plain English names, either.

OK genetically the genes of colors and non caucasian races are far more dominant so after so many years of intermixing i think then noone would look caucasian...

I'm not trying to troll here, but do we really need the political correctness being pushed into the realm of GW minis? You can paint them as any ethnicity that you want.

As far as fluff, Salamander and White Scars come to mind.

Tazok wrote:I'm not trying to troll here, but do we really need the political correctness being pushed into the realm of GW minis? You can paint them as any ethnicity that you want.

As far as fluff, Salamander and White Scars come to mind.

Its not political correctness... its accuracy depicting humanity. Im not bringing this up because i want to bash GW i want to bring this up because i think if you want to expand your player base you need to appeal to all walks of life.

windswept313 wrote:Its not political correctness... its accuracy depicting humanity. Im not bringing this up because i want to bash GW i want to bring this up because i think if you want to expand your player base you need to appeal to all walks of life.

People are either going to play the game or not, generally. In my experience, what color skin the Little Army Guys have has never made an impact on people getting into the game. I've never known anyone to look at the codex/WD/rulebook and say: "This looks like a fun game, too bad there aren't black/asian/hispanic, etc. guys in any of the pictures of the toys." Cost and whether they like the game as a game tends to be the big factor, not what color everyone paints their toys.

windswept313 wrote:
Its not political correctness... its accuracy depicting humanity. Im not bringing this up because i want to bash GW i want to bring this up because i think if you want to expand your player base you need to appeal to all walks of life.

It's a fictional universe where humanity is largely evil. There's no accuracy in the system at all. In the fluff, in the game mechanics, or in the miniatures. The hobby appeals to geeks. I think GW would be much better served changing their business strategy over changing their fictional universe to attract more customers (but business strategy is a topic for another time/thread).

I have to say I think the OP is dead on with the original rant. I wish GW would squeeze out a little more racial diversity. I mean warhammer fantasy has the background there, just flesh it out into an army or two! I am prouid to say that my Imp guard and sisters o battle armies are multicultural and dang it I like it that way!! And my space marine are diverse in name and spirit because in the grim-dark furute every marine wears his dang helmet! But good points made by all.

PS I am also crafting a zulu themed ogre army. Great movie! Go Zulus!!

Platuan4th wrote:

windswept313 wrote:Its not political correctness... its accuracy depicting humanity. Im not bringing this up because i want to bash GW i want to bring this up because i think if you want to expand your player base you need to appeal to all walks of life.

People are either going to play the game or not, generally. In my experience, what color skin the Little Army Guys have has never made an impact on people getting into the game. I've never known anyone to look at the codex/WD/rulebook and say: "This looks like a fun game, too bad there aren't black/asian/hispanic, etc. guys in any of the pictures of the toys." Cost and whether they like the game as a game tends to be the big factor, not what color everyone paints their toys.

Well im glad you feel that way.. I myself do not and others have spoke of the same thing. I love the hobby and will keep playing and im not going to camp on GWs doorstep with a picket sign saying diversify your game... but ithink us as the community could help the discussion if we simply have one.

Some things are important to some people. We have to be aware of that.

Not every request for diversity is the result of, or caused by, political correctness. I really don't think people want to see fewer white people in some attempt to change the way people think about 40k, or alter the perception of the imperium of man; but rather to simply reflect the diversity of humanity. It's easy to dismiss all such queries by labeling them as being too "PC," but it shuts off an interesting line of though: namely, "what would humanity look like in 38,000 years?"

In a community where Space Marine companies (insanely rare in the fluff) outnumber IG companies with ease, I don't think there is any sort of deep rooted racial idea behind the prevalence of light skinned humans, particularly when given the racial compositions of the community itself. If you were going to create an army, why wouldn't it be somewhat in your image?

So, the answer the OP's post about the marketing is that GW trusts that people will understand that the models are a canvass, and can be painted however the owner wishes. I think it would be useful to include more models of color, but I think you'll quickly wind up in a whole new kettle of fish. IG armies are generally all painted one skin color because it's easier. If painted all black (or brown or whatever), it raises the question of segregation in the IG (which of course exists due to the nature of regiments, but that's another battle.) GW also does most of it's sales in fairly homogenous regions: Britain, australia, japan, western europe... places with smaller ethnic minorities than in the US, and with lessened emphasis placed on cultural integration.

My Salamander army is all black as well.

My kasarkins are lead by black leaders and chez whitie gets to hold the special weapons that blow up in his face.

all my gangs for necromunda are racially based. latino, black, white, asian, etc.. All my eschers are lesbian too. (I'm suprised with your original post you didn't ask about why there are no gay space marines (since all the rainbow warriors are now defunct) or no lesbian sisters of battle either.. )

I chose to paint them that way and I don't care if anyone else does or doesn't.

Thanks for your responses.. Lets look at video games. it wasnt unti lvery recently that you could choose the race of the guy carrying the M-16 blasting other people on virtual battlefields.. why did this come to be.. because people started talking about and asking why are you representing the US army so blandly. So now those options exist because when you are a person of color you want to feel that you are not being stuck in a box with how you represent yourself virtually. Its a great discussion topic and one that has sparked movement in how people make games.

I just think that GW is missing something and i wanted everyone here to discuss it in some way whether they feel it to be trivial because it does not affect them or they find it offensive because its another case of discrimination. I tend to feel its just absent mindedness or a failure to understand cultural difference and simply go with what you know attitude should suffice.

Polonius wrote:

So, the answer the OP's post about the marketing is that GW trusts that people will understand that the models are a canvass, and can be painted however the owner wishes. I think it would be useful to include more models of color, but I think you'll quickly wind up in a whole new kettle of fish. IG armies are generally all painted one skin color because it's easier. If painted all black (or brown or whatever), it raises the question of segregation in the IG (which of course exists due to the nature of regiments, but that's another battle.) GW also does most of it's sales in fairly homogenous regions: Britain, australia, japan, western europe... places with smaller ethnic minorities than in the US, and with lessened emphasis placed on cultural integration.

Well to be honest some of us "Accept" not "Understand" the canvas. The change i would like to see is not how we paint their models its how they model their models. You know racial characteristics.. Eyes for Asians, physique and stature for others.. these type of things is all.. But GW will never really say what they would have to say. We arent going to make what people wont buy....

Yeah just a few more random guard armies/ marine chapters with a tan wouldn't ruin the goth look imo

IT'S A GAME!

Damb, why do people always get so worked up over the stupid little things? O cry GW didn't add a black man in to the list of heros for you, paint one black and there ye go!

For all you really know every last Ultramarine could be black, you never see them out of power armor now do you?

EDITED by MOD


PS~This is just another show of how sad the world is becoming, the fact that people can't get over them selves for five minutes and remember that its a GAME, and one that is left completely open for you do model/Paint your army as you wish, but you would rather complain about it because you feel "left out"

JokerGod wrote:IT'S A GAME!

Damb, why do people always get so worked up over the stupid little things? O cry GW didn't add a black man in to the list of heros for you, paint one black and there ye go!

For all you really know every last Ultramarine could be black, you never see them out of power armor now do you?

We all know GW are racist and sexist with nothing other then white foke and the girls (Sisters of Battle) are weaker to there male counterpart, How ever, did you ever stop to think that it could be the future? I am yet to hear about watermelon OR fried chicken in the 40K world so maby the black people diden't want to keep going.


Yes I KNOW! That was incredibly racist and I will more then likely have a mod crying about it. But it was funny, if you didn't laugh your far to uptight and need to grow up.


PS~This is just another show of how sad the world is becoming, the fact that people can't get over them selves for five minutes and remember that its a GAME, and one that is left completely open for you do model/Paint your army as you wish, but you would rather complain about it because you feel "left out"

Ok based on your assumption and what others have said ... then only white people are geeks, The only emperor of humanity can be a white guy, only white people are war mongerers who will create noting but war in all timelines and imaginations, cmon... every race is guilty of war... hell we could digress and say all fanatics in WHFB are middle eastern descent...

My original topic was based on how i felt that there are groups of people who are smart enough to know when they are being excluded from something whether it be intentional or through ignorance. Why are there no GW stores in or around the ghettos.. lol . Oh how this topic has been lost in discussion. Lets focus on these items for discussion.

1. Would including racially diverse characters in 40k diminish or expand its player base?

2. Does the fluff, art, names in the 40k universe lack cultural diversity?

3. Does a majority player base of caucasian males determine how you build a game?

4. Would you buy an Asian army, Black Army(african Descent), Latino Army, Middle Eastern Army?

5. Why did the women have to have big boobs... lol... and all amazon chicks. oh yeah and why dont amazon chicks look like they are from the amazon?

Dont get mad at me cuz i like cultural diversity in all things.

budro wrote:I suspect that a lot of it comes from the idea of "you draw/write what you know" based on your cultural history.

As an artist myself I can honestly say I've never had an impulse to draw a character that was of a different ethnicity than myself. Why? Is it because I hate them, no. I draw what I'm familiar with. If I don't draw someone of a different ethnicity it isn't that I can't do it, but it is an issue about how I represent the 'character' of that race. Drawing something 'accurately' is not the same as drawing something that has the same...spirit and anyone who is an artist or writer can understand the difficult concept I'm trying to convey. I've drawn plenty of accurate images but unless that image has that spark of character to make it a living breathing entity...it's a worthless drawing imo.

windswept313 wrote:Well to be honest some of us "Accept" not "Understand" the canvas. The change i would like to see is not how we paint their models its how they model their models. You know racial characteristics.. Eyes for Asians, physique and stature for others.. these type of things is all.. But GW will never really say what they would have to say. We arent going to make what people wont buy....

I'm not saying you don't have a valid point voicing this issue but do you really think the artists and sculptures, who are likely primarily caucassian, will model or produce artwork accurately for a person of ethnicity when they can't even make a decent looking female model? When it's all said and done the reality is you control what you're army is going to look like and the kind of fluff that army is going to have.

The art and fiction has a good number of personas of different races and ethnicities. Just not the 'eavy metal painted figures.

Someone should shoot those guys a letter or something.

Spearchukkas are a Goblin Manned piece of Artillery...not a racist term for a person of African origin.

Savage Orcs...fair enough, they are a rough approximation of how the Victorian types referred to people from non-civilised parts of the world.

But Orcs and Gobbos as a whole are intended to represent Highland Scots, attacking in a disorganised rabble.

I am trying to understand where the issue is-other than some of the painted minis.

Most of the artwork is to craptacular to tell, but I'd proffer more focus would be good. With a few exceptions the fluff is oblivious.

The minis are nuetral as well. You can paint a Cadian any shade. My demons, eldar, and chaos, don't care either.

Rymafyr wrote:I'm not saying you don't have a valid point voicing this issue but do you really think the artists and sculptures, who are likely primarily caucassian, will model or produce artwork accurately for a person of ethnicity when they can't even make a decent looking female model? When it's all said and done the reality is you control what you're army is going to look like and the kind of fluff that army is going to have.

Bolded for emphasis. I don't know if you've tried to sculpt the kind of facial details you're talking about adding in windswept313... but really at the scale that warhammer 40k uses it is damn near impossible.

windswept313 wrote:1. Would including racially diverse characters in 40k diminish or expand its player base?

Honestly I don't think it would make an impact either way... but that's just my opinion... ymmv.

windswept313 wrote:2. Does the fluff, art, names in the 40k universe lack cultural diversity?

Interesting that you're fixated on the humans because technically there's a LOT of diversity. How many alien races are we up to now?

windswept313 wrote:3. Does a majority player base of caucasian males determine how you build a game?

I really don't think so.

windswept313 wrote:4. Would you buy an Asian army, Black Army(african Descent), Latino Army, Middle Eastern Army?

Good luck trying to get miniatures that look like this without relying on the paintjob. I mean seriously... take a cadian trooper and try modelling a new face that when unpainted people will be like "wow... that guy is totally asian!".

windswept313 wrote:5. Why did the women have to have big boobs... lol... and all amazon chicks. oh yeah and why dont amazon chicks look like they are from the amazon?

Mostly because GW can't model women worth crap.

Well, I think black Imperial guard armies and suchlike are easier to make yourself then an Ig army with as many men as women, and as such I think that is something I would rathher see Gw correcting really.

And by the way I dont think 1 space marine chapter could ever represent a human race, when there would logicallyexist at least 20 guard regiments withthe same them. Sorry white scars, sallies.

Here's a Q, are there minis that representative of Asian/African, etc (not including paintjobs-sculpts only), that could not be themselves viewed as OT stereotypes?

I thought that all SM chapters are descended from the geneseed of the Emperor, who was Semitic in birth origin. They should all look Arabic or Jewish, not Caucasian.

It would be nice if GW included more diversity in their artwork. I don't know how much the lack of it puts off non-white players.

The UK's ratio of non-white population is about 7.9%, and the minorities tend to be concentrated in places like Southall, Bradford and Soho, so the ratio is much lower in many places. I have no idea if these points have any influence on GW.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=273