Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey, if it turns Guard Infantry from "speed bump objective holders" to "annoying speed bump objective holders", I will be happy.

sorry what's overwatch??

Something that slows games to a crawl and was mercifully removed from the rules and hopefully will never return.

BYE

what is overwatch? also there is a list in french of the stat summary page for the new codex. The 501st Calusian Seige Regiment shall rise again! FOREWARD GUARDSMEN!!!!!! FOR THE EMPEROR!!!!!!! CHAAAAAARGE!!!!!!

GLORY FOR THE FIRST MAN TO DIE!!!!!!!!

H.B.M.C. wrote:Something that slows games to a crawl and was mercifully removed from the rules and hopefully will never return.

BYE

Really H.B.M.C? I would have thought as big a fanboy of 2nd Edition as you come across as, and with the sheer amount of IG that you can field, you'd be all over Overwatch returning.

I am surprised.

Maybe I'm mixing you up with the mysterious H.M.B.C. fellow.

No, HMBC / BM is on record as disliking Overwatch.

It's one of the few areas that we agree.

What does overwatch do?

Actually John and I agree in lots of areas, however:

1. He can't see my posts, so he never realises that.
2. At times, when we've agreed, he's argued against me, which is really odd IMO.

Anyway, chaplaingrabthar, I've explained this a few times, but as it's come up again I'll explain it once more.

Overwatch is bad because it slows games down to a crawl. A person decides that rather than doing anything in their turn, they'll simply let their army react automatically to anything their opponent does and puts their whole army on overwatch. The opposing player, not wanting to have his army raped during his own turn, reponds in mind, placing his army in overwatch.

So it goes like this:

Player 1: Uhh... ok. My whole army's on overwatch. Your turn.
Player 2: What? Alright... umm... ok then, my whole army's on overwatch too! Your turn.
Player 1: Still on overwatch. Your turn.
Player 2: Ditto. Backatcha.
Player 1: Yarr! We still be bein' on overwatch, YARR! Now it be your turn again. YARR!
Player 2: Dey still be overwatchin' mon! It be your turn!
Leeroy Jenkins: LEEEEEEEEROYY JENKIIIIIINNNNS!!!!! *Leroy smashes the table because both players are being morons*

So as you can see, while the turns might go quickly, leading to a very fast, very short game, the actual game itself has come to a complete standstill.

This is why Overwatch must never, ever return.

BYE

omg doctrines were the most confusing load of crap ever. however, re-rolling 1's in the shooting phase, +1 ld +1 I, and +1 WS was amazing and caused much whining by assaulty armies. "waaa i wana wipe out those guardsmen NOW without even rolling well! what? what do you mean i have to try? cheese! bitch moan cry whine"

You found Doctrines confusing? What was so confusing about them?

BYE

the way they were organized and presented in the codex and their contradictory nature

And examples of these contradictions would be...?

BYE

Doctrines confusing? No.

A poor system? Yes.


Most doctrines are horrible, but the ones that are good virtually mandatory. And it just happens to be that the good ones are also the cheapest (DT, CoD, ID) (LI and SS are good as well since you can give them to selected squads).

And then there is the whole aspect that none of the doctrines seem to ever be modeled on their units. Hell many of them are not able to be...

I really hope the new system offers effective variety, and makes it fun to build different guard lists.

H.B.M.C. wrote:You found Doctrines confusing? What was so confusing about them?

Well, The Angry Commissar seemed to be trying to use Doctrines to make Guard good at close combat, so I'd say he sure was confused!

Seriously, though, Doctrines are important because they're the only thing that makes the current IG Codex competitive. But that doesn't mean they were a good idea. I'll be happy to see them gone, since dropping them allows GW to focus on making "conventional" Guard armies competitive, instead of forcing everyone to use drop troopers.

But part of me is going to miss being able to deep strike specialist squads all over the place.... I'm focusing on enjoying it while I can, since I doubt Valkyries will really capture the same feeling.

H.B.M.C. wrote:AAnyway, chaplaingrabthar, I've explained this a few times, but as it's come up again I'll explain it once more.

Overwatch is bad because it slows games down to a crawl.

Thanks for the explanation. I'd forgotten that side effect, mostly because when I played 2nd Edition my group had a house rule of no more than 1 (combat) squad on Overwatch. I assume we implemented it to avoid the very situation you describe, but I no longer remember.

We banned it in Necromunda as well, and eventually made it into a 'Shooting Skill' (when you rolled Marksman, you could either choose Marksman or Overwatch).

And even then, when you had the Overwatch skill, you had to pass an Ld test in order to go on Overwatch.

Stopped the game being about the Heavy in a perfect fire position staying on Overwatch all game with his Heavy Stubber.

BYE

i was just trying to make them not total garbage in cc. who knows, maybe im just slowed lol

Spending points on Guard to make them better in HTH is counter-productive. They're Guardsmen, they're not supposed to be good in HTH.

If you ever tried to buy things like Xenos Hunters or Hardened Fighters, then you were doing your opponent a favour by reducing the amount of men and guns you had on the table.

Always remember this:

Play to your army's strengths, and not to its weaknesses. The strength of the Guard is shooting, so do everything in your power to enhance this strength. Their weakness is HTH, and throwing points at a weakness in the hope that it will simply 'go away' is a surefire way of weakening your strength.

BYE

hmm. well said sir

Back to the question at hand...

Guard need something stupidly more awesome than what they have now to make them a viable army.

All I've seen that's anywhere near cool for them so far (besides these rumoured orders) is valks and a bringing back all the old tanks and characters
Valks, tank options, and character options finally just barely make them a subpar army.

The Imperial Guard are a horde army. They just are because of their cost and because apparantly the Tank Company isn't allowed in GW GTs anymore.
Rumours say their pts price is finally going to be equal to what they are, 4 pts.
Don't even dare say they should cost more than that, they are waaay worse than orks and orks cost less atm

Anyways...
Guard need some kind of thing to make people take huge platoons of dudes with tons of heavy weapons. Orders will do just that.
Make the vox required if they squad is over 12"-18" away and have penalties on the squad with a vox
That would make voxes much more useful first of all and make people actually use them.
Orders should vary a lot and should have effects like the docrines do, but slightly better if there's a Ld check involved.

Shooting through own guys without cover should be a must. Makes heavy weapon teams so much more worth taking.

Taking away the target's cover by 2 is honestly going to do what? Lasguns are ap NOTHING. Only thing this would affect is heavy weapons squads which makes total sense and should be a heavy weapons team only type of order. IG heavy weapons come straight from the forgeworlds, require no modification like SM because they aren't shoulder mounted. It takes two freakin' guys to shoot the gun, and the IG really need to have something to help them shoot, they are a shooty army like tau (inb4 tau have the same BS). Tau have Markerlights, those are broken enough because shooting is all tau can do. a guardsmen should have something of the equivilant value.

Lastly, guardsmen should have some kind of Close Combat order. Giving them counterattack on a Ld check is not broken, it makes sense. These guys are literally like nazis, yo. They grow up as whiteshields (Hitler's Youth) Have the Commisars drill propoganda into their little skulls and when they grow up, they just go into the real army. These guys have nothing to lose, they don't have families, they have the friends right next to them and we all either know someone that has had that kind of experience or at least have seen movies. It makes people fight to the utter death, if they can breathe, they can fight. This kind of order IMO should be a Commisar-only order. Makes sense and makes it a little less broken.

Overall, I think the guard need some broken rules but put limits on them like what squads can recieve what order. Heavy weapon teams won't be trained in Close combat so they shouldn't get the bonus but, they should get something like shooting-oriented orders.

Commisars should have access to really awesome orders. or just have, if they fail a Ld check, he kills someone and they do it anyways.

wow great thoughts. id love some broken stuff for IG because it seems they are the only army that doesnt have any broken stuff.

Ummm... what's overwatch?

(Yes i know that i am a noob but what can you do?)

jamunition wrote:Ummm... what's overwatch?

(Yes i know that i am a noob but what can you do?)

Old mechanic (1st and 2nd ed) that allowed you to place a unit "On Overwatch" instead of moving or shooting them on your turn, then you could interrupt your opponents mvoement phase to fire them, allowing you to shoot units as the broke from cover and such, it generally carried a penalty on the to hit roll as well.

Widely disliked for slowing games down, sometimes desired by "shooty army" fans because it lets them do something other then die when about to be charged by scary melee units.

Jack

An equivalent to markerlights, that is what the orders should be. Also for costs the rumor is you need a vox network so thats 5 (15 for master) pts per squad.

Guard don't really need a CC order, they need something to prevent CC or something more defensive than speed bumps. Free lasgun shot when charged or something. But its hard to have defensive orders without getting overwatch problems too. But its not really more complicated than close order drill.

I know it wont happen, but Commisars should be able to order a unit to shoot into their own close combat. It fits the guard style of the guard perfectly. I bet they will end up like an expensive bosspole though.