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Well Skinny, I bow down to your superior gramatical advice. Anyone with such impressive interpersonal skills surely must know what they are talking about.

Kid, I think you hit the nail on the head with your last post. Even with out the option of taking specials, you built a tough little unit that would actually be something I would consider throwing into close combat. Especially loaded up with shotguns and shock mauls. They would be great objective grabbers for the ig, finally we have something that could potential shift a MEQ off of a back field objective. Have you run the numbers vs say standard bolter marines in close combat?

There are play tested rules @ bell of lost souls

George Spiggott wrote:It's possible that Stormtroopers will get S4 Shotguns and improved Hellguns in May when the new Imperial Guard Codex is released.

Remember that stopping power (Str) isn't the only factor in deciding on which weapon to use. For Stormtroopers Hellguns have other (fluff) advantages such as ammunition and spare parts compatibility with other Imperial Guard weapons that Boltguns do not have.

Arbites are unlike any Police force that the modern western world uses. They’re garrisoned troops specialising in martial law and small scale sieges against organised small scale forces (Genestealer & Chaos cults). A bit like GI Joe.

This is the thing, Arbites are not police units in any sense that our world is familiar with. They are definitely better equipped and trained than PDF ( that is the whole point ) and serve the purpose of being a constant threat in the back of a planetary govenor's mind. They are intended to also serve in that capacity as being able to hold out against an infiltrating invader such as genestealer cults or Orks from spores, whatever. They are depicted as being capable of holding out against such threats in their fortress precincts for some time, and having the dedication to detonate thier own fortress as a last resort. They also serve as a means to control well armed paramilitary gangs which are equipped, if not trained, at least as well as IG.

I have to ask though, are you intending the shock maul armed guys to be MC killers? Because that is what they are under your rules.

I think there is an excessive amount of attack and defense going on here. Simply put arbites exist in 40k and should be excepted just on the basis some one wants to have fun. KidKyoto is trying to make a fun homebrew codex, if you disagree with the concept of an Arbite codex you shouldn't bother posting. Only post if you believe a codex should be made.

That said the important things to remember is that Arbites:
1) Fewer in number than IG
2) Are a paramilitary force, better equipped than the IG

That said the weakness of the Arbites is that if they commit to a full scale battle, the don't really have any reinforcements or reserves. They are a last line of defense sort of force.

Second, there are alot of Arbite lists that have been done that always over look that just because they perform policing duties, doesn't mean they'll bring water cannons to a fight. Especially since they have access to better weapons. They might use water cannons, but not when you're going to assist in the defense of the hive city against ork invasion.

A few bits of nomenclature:
Local Police are called "Enforcers"
Arbite Heavy Weapon Squads: "Execution Team"

I think it'd be good, to have Enforcers as stormtroopers and full blown arbites as a cross between stormtroopers and veteran IG squads, where they have a solid number of weapon options.

I also think if you can't come up with anything else you could probably get away with moving the sniper teams to heavy support.

I think some of the more limited Leman Russ variants would be appropriate, the Conqueror, Executioner, Exterminator. And you could always come up with an arbite variant, call it the Subjugator (w/assault cannons?).

Both the previous posters raise good points. I think the following vehicles would fit as well.

Vindicator or Forgeworld turretless Demolisher (can't remember name) - Ideal for close support work destroying cult built fortifications.
Dreadnought - Especially the Space Crusade one equipped with two Assault Cannons
Forgeworld Comms Rhino - Arbites have their own fleet IIRC. This could call in fire from those ships.

Grignard and Mythos point out a lot of things, all of which I have major misgivings about being both correct or proper. However going into detail AGAIN would just be futile. I have already pointed out what I have learned about the Arbites from the fluff on them I have read, seen, and heard, all of which contradict the idea that the Arbites are a large force capable of assaulting a local PDF and rolling the local Govenor, I have actually never heard of Arbites doing that. I HAVE heard of Arbites assaulting the planetary palace and what defenses it has to arrest or excecute a rogue Govenor, or boxing themselves up in their pricincts to try and ride out an assault while waiting for the local PDF, Guard, or other friendly Imperial units to arrive, but not quelling an uprising too large for the PDF or even going head to head with a whole planets PDF (remember, an Arbites detachment on a planet would be in proportion to the planet's population and risk assessment. If either are too high they CALL IN THE GUARD!).

As for "please don't try and assault this idea, because it is too weak to stand on it's own" proposition; What? This is the "Proposed Rules" section. Not "We Will Have This Idea Furthered Whether Anyone Wants it or Not" section. It is a discussion, which would include peopel who feel that a whole new codex that runs right up next to another codex and says "I have that exact same running outfit on right now!" with different color wrist and head bands and slightly different running sneakers is superfluous. You can't just ask those people to leave because they don't agree that "extremely similiar, but better!" isn't "totally different and original!"

@ aka_mythos

i dont think anyone here have any sort of problem with
the attempt to make a playable Arbite list.

If anything, they are trying to help fine tune the current
list so it can be enjoyable for everyone.

If anyone have a problem with seeing suggestion / expression of ideas , they wouldnt even need
to make a thread.

They would just finish the list, and say here, its done .

I fully support you idea Kyoto. To me, it was always stuff like that, which made 40k more interesting than other tabletop games.

A riot tank would be a cool addition imo. Depending on the situation, a water cannon might be a better investment than a flamer.

Skinnattittar wrote:Grignard and Mythos point out a lot of things, all of which I have major misgivings about being both correct or proper. However going into detail AGAIN would just be futile. I have already pointed out what I have learned about the Arbites from the fluff on them I have read, seen, and heard, all of which contradict the idea that the Arbites are a large force capable of assaulting a local PDF and rolling the local Govenor, I have actually never heard of Arbites doing that. I HAVE heard of Arbites assaulting the planetary palace and what defenses it has to arrest or excecute a rogue Govenor, or boxing themselves up in their pricincts to try and ride out an assault while waiting for the local PDF, Guard, or other friendly Imperial units to arrive, but not quelling an uprising too large for the PDF or even going head to head with a whole planets PDF (remember, an Arbites detachment on a planet would be in proportion to the planet's population and risk assessment. If either are too high they CALL IN THE GUARD!).

As for "please don't try and assault this idea, because it is too weak to stand on it's own" proposition; What? This is the "Proposed Rules" section. Not "We Will Have This Idea Furthered Whether Anyone Wants it or Not" section. It is a discussion, which would include peopel who feel that a whole new codex that runs right up next to another codex and says "I have that exact same running outfit on right now!" with different color wrist and head bands and slightly different running sneakers is superfluous. You can't just ask those people to leave because they don't agree that "extremely similiar, but better!" isn't "totally different and original!"

I wish I could remember what specifically I read in the past....I never said that the Arbites would have the manpower or equipment to handle a problem alone, they would do exactly what you said, call the IG or Marines ( I presume they have their own astropaths, though I can't give you any fluff to prove that). None of this invalidates them as a force deserving of an army list. In fact, the reason I would think they would have different, often better, weapons and statistics than IG is that they would be expected to be able to hold their own for extended periods of time until a larger force arrives. The threat to the govenor is not that they'll roll tanks up to his palace, but that they'll send four or five guys in to bust his ass, with the legal authority to do so. All of this means that they'd be psychologically hard, real old salts. You won't like them because they're hard, but the more you hate them, the more you'll learn. And so forth. I'm not accepting the suggestion uncritically, but I think it definitely deserves being looked at. I also feel that "counts as" is nice, but not a magic bullet for every problem.

When it comes to 40k battles, I'm all about the fluff, so if you get the scenario right, I would love to see an Arbites army.

Skinnattittar wrote: As for "please don't try and assault this idea, because it is too weak to stand on it's own" proposition; What? This is the "Proposed Rules" section. Not "We Will Have This Idea Furthered Whether Anyone Wants it or Not" section. It is a discussion, which would include peopel who feel that a whole new codex that runs right up next to another codex and says "I have that exact same running outfit on right now!" with different color wrist and head bands and slightly different running sneakers is superfluous. You can't just ask those people to leave because they don't agree that "extremely similiar, but better!" isn't "totally different and original!"

Woah. Misconstrued. I just meant that some of the early posts I read just seemed to attack the notion of a Arbite Codex without really trying to figure out how to make it work. Those sorts of comments that don't add anything constructive is what I was talking about.

Skinnattittar wrote: Grignard and Mythos point out a lot of things, all of which I have major misgivings about being both correct or proper. However going into detail AGAIN would just be futile. I have already pointed out what I have learned about the Arbites from the fluff on them I have read, seen, and heard, all of which contradict the idea that the Arbites are a large force capable of assaulting a local PDF and rolling the local Govenor, I have actually never heard of Arbites doing that. I HAVE heard of Arbites assaulting the planetary palace and what defenses it has to arrest or excecute a rogue Govenor, or boxing themselves up in their pricincts to try and ride out an assault while waiting for the local PDF, Guard, or other friendly Imperial units to arrive, but not quelling an uprising too large for the PDF or even going head to head with a whole planets PDF (remember, an Arbites detachment on a planet would be in proportion to the planet's population and risk assessment. If either are too high they CALL IN THE GUARD!).

I own an Arbite army, so maybe when I speak I am biased. I actually own a significant amount of the game published fluff, Necromunda and white dwarf articles, I even have the chapter approved Citadel Journal rules for them. Now there are more current fluff, such as all the stuff with the enforcers and the few novels that have been centered on arbites.

Like I said before its important to remember
1) Fewer in number than IG
2) Are a paramilitary force, better equipped than the IG

They are a last line of defense for a planet, in the sense that if their actions cannot deal with the problem, the next course of military action will be the imperial guard that will arrive sometime in the next 50 years (darn warp) to deal with the problem.

Their fluff is pretty straight forward in saying they are equipped better than a given number of imperial guard.

The next thing to dwell on is that they're suppose to be able to take down a governor if necessary. That would be a significantly scaled military action to decapitate the planets rogue leadership. On planet of hundreds of billions, how many Arbites would their be? Even at .0000000001% of the population, that's more than a 100, more than enough elite highly trained troops to field on the table top. I think another way to dwell on it would be, having the duty of taking care of a rogue governor, what level of firepower would be necessary. It seems to me just by what one of their purposes are, if you assume they can complete that objective they would have significant force.

By the necessity of their design and function, as dictated by their fluff, they would need some amount of military level abilities. They have to function outside the aid of the planetary defense forces because they may need to fight some amount of them. Their purpose would dictate that they be as numerous as say the governors body guards, which in all likely hood would be a company or so of stormtroopers. Any force capable of taking out such a force would once again have to be better equipped and be worth while on the table top.

The Arbites are a precaution and deterrent because it isn't always practical to send an IG fleet or army to deal with every little insurrection in a TIMELY manner.

I also present their logical biggest weakness, they don't have the infrastructure to support a protracted insurrection or to fight a campaign. While they're numerous enough to commit to a battle, they don't have easy access to the resources to replenish men and materiel. They would make a few calculated strikes (take out governor, disable infrastructure) to stop insurrection or ease IG reoccupation.


The fluff says they have a significant skilled medic corp. Might be a good way to improve survivability of troops in a table top army likely strapped for troops.

aka_mythos wrote:Woah. Misconstrued. I just meant that some of the early posts I read just seemed to attack the notion of a Arbite Codex without really trying to figure out how to make it work.

I assume you're talking about me and some of the others who made similar comments.

We're not attacking an Arbite Codex - we're saying that C: WH *is* a "good enough" Arbite Codex.

At least, if we're not to the point that splitting hairs for Codex: Salamanders, Codex: Crimson Fists, Codex: White Scars, Codex: Raven Guard and Codex: Imperial Fists are needed to cover minor naming and option differences from Codex: Space Marines.

That's why the basic question we ask is: what can't you do with C: WH today, that you feel that you would need to do with C: Arbites?
____

@mythos: BTW, I assume you have the BoLS C: AA - how is that for you?

That's why the basic question we ask is: what can't you do with C: WH today, that you feel that you would need to do with C: Arbites?

Shotguns suck in 40k.

Nobody said that Arbites had to be strong - only thematic.

Well, the Imperial Guard or Space Marines would be the last line of defense agaisnt a planet falling from the Emperor's Grace, Arbites would be like the second or third (not chastising you here, just trying to calmly refocus that point), with local "Enforcers" being the first, and the PDF being second if they are available, or exist at all (some planets the PDF could be a part of the local law and order).

In all the fluff I have seen about Arbites, there would be a single precinct for a good sized planet (what size that is I can't say) with Arbites attending fleets in the region (usually a larger number available upon request), most planets would have a few Arbites as advisors with a travelling Judge if need be. As far as capability of taking out Govenors... well, fluff wise, they must do a pretty crappy job of that because very few govenors tend to be taken down for the infractions that they need to be taken out for (things other than sneezing during a Hymnal to Him on Earth or regular kinds of non-Heretical infractions). Just putting that one out there. and second, just because they are good at that, doesn't mean they could handle front line duty for a moment or two. NYPD are very well trained, but they wouldn't last a second, even with their ballistic armor, against a real military force. Which is why they flee to their pricinct fortresses and hope that the enemy PDF doesn't just decide to pop them with arti. Which they usually do (most fluff I've read about taken worlds mention the local pricinct being a burned out rubble ruin, with a pile of Arbite helmets with their heads still inside, on the steps).

In Necromunda they may be hard (I don't know, I haven't seen much of Necromunda) but that game is based on gang fights, not combat. Even a green would know that you don't send troops trained for riot actions and SWAT style combat up against Chaos Space Marines or Eldar warriors on the field of battle.

I think the total lack of an Arbite army for 40k in the past twenty years supports that idea, as far as fluff goes.

If you wanted to make an Arbite Codex, I think we would have to focus on an army larger than an Imperial Guard force with units, perhaps better equiped (not sure how you're going to represent simply better quality equipment, rather than more effective/powerful equipment) but poorer stats.

Police typically have better equipment compared to the military as in just better quality. For instance; Glocks instead of Berettas (which aren't that bad, actually), match grade AR15s instead of M16s, more SMGs for close in work, more pistols for the same reason, regular updates to vehicles and equipment, more comfortable uniforms and boots, and the like. Not, instead of a rifle they get a machine-gun, or grenade launchers tipped with nuclear bombs (exageration for effect) instead of regular HE. The equipment that SWAT, Special Forces, Delta Force, ect... is the same basic model that the regualr Army uses, they jsut have higher quality versions and more of the nice upgrades. A round from an M16 is the same round from a hopped up AR15.

I thought BoLS was pretty good. It was a lot of fun to play, the couple times I did. I think its 90% of what an Arbite codex should be. I don't have my marked up copy with me, since I'm at work. So I'll save my specific comments for later. The thing I liked most was that it avoided alot of the common pit falls other fan-dex arbite codices have.

I liked that it was a fully playable list with a good number of options. I was glad they didn't include a water cannon, or a land raider. I fully expected their to be a squad of psyber mastiffs. One thing I had wanted unit wise was a land speeder (I've been converting some helicopters). I would have liked to have seen atleast one arbite specific variant of the sentinel, but that wasn't necessary. Things like penal legion and lower quality arbites in the form of enforcers I think would have rounded it out as a better proportioned list.

Skinnattittar wrote:Police typically have better equipment compared to the military as in just better quality.

Where the heck do you live?

This isn't Italy with Carabineri running around with SMGs.

The average cop wears a kevlar vest and carries a 9mm pistol firing FMJ with 2 spare clips, along with a collapsible baton. He's supposed to minimize use of force to prevent lawsuits, and trained to back off for SWAT if things get "too hot". Ld6 Sv6+ with a S2 AP- Pistol, with a S3 AP- Shotgun available in extremis.

The basic soldier wears ballistic armor with trauma plates and carries a carbine, with a backup pistol. Most importantly, he's trained for the default situation in which seriously bad guys are shooting at him. Ld7 Sv5+ with a S3 AP- Rapid-Fire.

____

aka_mythos wrote:I thought BoLS was pretty good. It was a lot of fun to play, the couple times I did. I think its 90% of what an Arbite codex should be.

- I fully expected their to be a squad of psyber mastiffs.
- One thing I had wanted unit wise was a land speeder (I've been converting some helicopters).
- I would have liked to have seen atleast one arbite specific variant of the sentinel,
- Things like penal legion and lower quality arbites in the form of enforcers

OK, good. I thought the BoLS version was pretty good, too.

From IG/WH, I'd suggest:
- WH Flagellents or IG Rough Riders.
- SM Land Speeder
- IG Sentinel or WH Penitent Engine
- IG Guardsmen

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:Police typically have better equipment compared to the military as in just better quality.

Where the heck do you live?

This isn't Italy with Carabineri running around with SMGs.

The average cop wears a kevlar vest and carries a 9mm pistol firing FMJ with 2 spare clips, along with a collapsible baton. He's supposed to minimize use of force to prevent lawsuits, and trained to back off for SWAT if things get "too hot". Ld6 Sv6+ with a S2 AP- Pistol, with a S3 AP- Shotgun available in extremis.

The basic soldier wears ballistic armor with trauma plates and carries a carbine, with a backup pistol. Most importantly, he's trained for the default situation in which seriously bad guys are shooting at him. Ld7 Sv5+ with a S3 AP- Rapid-Fire.

Where are you from? Canada?

Yes, your average flatfoot is only wearing a basic anti-balistic vest, good for shotguns and pistols, not up to snuff against rifles or slugs. But SWAT and riot gear often have the heavier protection like ceramic or thick steel plates, if not another type of armor. They carry a bit more than a pistol, too, many squad cars these days also have an AR15. Probably not your local city/town cops, who may just have a rifle or two down at the station, but state and large city officers do, or at least a shotgun with slugs, at the very least! (slugs have an affective range against large animals, including humans, of 200m) I'm not talking about your regular Police Officer on patrol, I'm talking about police geared up for the worst, and including SWAT and specialised law enforcement teams. And, as noted, none of them have any "super" weapons to do their job.

The police are always concerned with having an arms race with criminal elements. In the 40k universe, the arms race is happening.

All arbites wear carapace armor. Even all enforcers (local level arbite) wear carapace armor. In a universe where walking down the street can get you blown to bits by a bolter wielding druggie scavvy you wanna wear more than a flak jacket. In the 40k universe the arbites are more than a police force entirely composed of SWAT, with bigger weapons. If my little home town sheriffs office has a APC, what would a futuristic totalitarian police state have? Modern comparisons fall short of the concept that comprises the Adeptus Arbite.

The idea that they enforce law and are police-like, I think is kinda narrowing the view of what intergalactic enforcing arm of the imperium can be. Comparing them to the modern police doesn't go far enough.

Take all of these and toss them in a blender and you'll have adeptus arbite.
http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2008/02/riotpolice350.jpg
http://home.arcor.de/anime-paradise/Jin-Roh/Pics/Jin-Roh7.jpg
http://www.geekshow.us/wp/wp-content/uploads/robocop.jpg
and even
http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/080124/Sylvester-Stallone-Roles/Sylvester-Stallone_Judge_l.jpg

So in the far far future the police have more power than the military? For some reason I would think the police would eventually take over the military...

Skinnattittar wrote:So in the far far future the police have more power than the military? For some reason I would think the police would eventually take over the military...

I'll say it a third time:

aka_mythos wrote:
Like I said before its important to remember Arbites are
1) Fewer in number than IG
2) Are a paramilitary force, better equipped than the IG

They are a last line of defense for a planet, in the sense that if their actions cannot deal with the problem, the next course of military action will be the imperial guard that will arrive sometime in the next 50 years (darn warp) to deal with the problem.

Their fluff is pretty straight forward in saying they are equipped better than a given number of imperial guard.

The next thing to dwell on is that they're suppose to be able to take down a governor if necessary. That would be a significantly scaled military action to decapitate the planets rogue leadership. On planet of hundreds of billions, how many Arbites would their be? Even at .0000000001% of the population, that's more than a 100, more than enough elite highly trained troops to field on the table top. I think another way to dwell on it would be, having the duty of taking care of a rogue governor, what level of firepower would be necessary. It seems to me just by what one of their purposes are, if you assume they can complete that objective they would have significant force.

By the necessity of their design and function, as dictated by their fluff, they would need some amount of military level abilities. They have to function outside the aid of the planetary defense forces because they may need to fight some amount of them. Their purpose would dictate that they be as numerous as say the governors body guards, which in all likely hood would be a company or so of stormtroopers. Any force capable of taking out such a force would once again have to be better equipped and be worth while on the table top.

The Arbites are a precaution and deterrent because it isn't always practical to send an IG fleet or army to deal with every little insurrection in a TIMELY manner.

I also present their logical biggest weakness, they don't have the infrastructure to support a protracted insurrection or to fight a campaign. While they're numerous enough to commit to a battle, they don't have easy access to the resources to replenish men and materiel. They would make a few calculated strikes (take out governor, disable infrastructure) to stop insurrection or ease IG reoccupation.

Also wanted to respond to this:

Skinnattittar wrote:Well, the Imperial Guard or Space Marines would be the last line of defense agaisnt a planet falling from the Emperor's Grace, Arbites would be like the second or third (not chastising you here, just trying to calmly refocus that point), with local "Enforcers" being the first, and the PDF being second if they are available, or exist at all (some planets the PDF could be a part of the local law and order).

I will clarify that when I say "Arbites are the last line of defense," that it is on the insistence of the fact that in the fluff there isn't always an Imperial Guard or Space Marine force nearby enough to respond quickly enough to prevent a take over of the planet. That often response to invasion or insurrection may take years for the bureaucracy of the Imperium to respond, leaving only those in the immediate system to respond. The Arbites being as well equipped as they are would be able to make significant contributions. I know it was mentioned somewhere, but they are often the ones that are charged with forming underground resistance to the new order. That they will make it harder on the enemy once the enemy has taken over and easier for the Imperium to retake the planet.

The Arbites receive training on a comparable level to Commissars in a similar schola. That is a direction one could go, make the squad level Judges like Commissars, to distinguish Arbites from IG, by having sgt types that have the stats and abilities of low level characters.

Skinnattittar wrote:
I think the total lack of an Arbite army for 40k in the past twenty years supports that idea, as far as fluff goes.

If you wanted to make an Arbite Codex, I think we would have to focus on an army larger than an Imperial Guard force with units, perhaps better equipped (not sure how you're going to represent simply better quality equipment, rather than more effective/powerful equipment) but poorer stats.

The Arbites had a Chapter Approved mini-codex back in 3rd Edition, I actually used my army in a couple of tourneys back then. Sounds legit to me.

In the Universe there are:
100 Trillion+ Humans.
30 Million Sisters of Battle
1 Million Space Marines.
1000 Grey Knights
1200 Space Wolves
10 Trillion IG

If the millions of Arbites (if not tens or hundreds of millions of Arbites) can't fit in than there is a significant list of other Codices that shouldn't exist.

aka_mythos wrote:In the Universe there are:
100 Trillion+ Humans.
10 Trillion IG
30 Million Sisters of Battle
1 Million Space Marines.
1200 Space Wolves
1000 Grey Knights

If the millions of Arbites (if not tens or hundreds of millions of Arbites) can't fit in than there is a significant list of other Codices that shouldn't exist.

I'm OK with the general breakdown, although, I suspect the Woofs and GK are underreported.

For the number of Arbites, the question is how many planetary Governors there are, and how large the typical Arbite force needs to be that it can still be supported as part of the Imperial "tax" on any given world population.

Bureaucracy is rarely cheap or practical. Since arbites help enforce tax collection, that would further support their importance in the eyes of the imperium.

My suggestion for how an Arbites force would look:

HQ :
Command Team: Mid level stats, akin to Guardsmen, perhaps with shotguns and heavy stubbers?

Elites :
Kill teams: High Level Stats, akin to Stormtroopers, but perhaps with Lasguns, Shotguns, and CCW?

Troops :
Patrol Teams: Mid Level stats, akin to Guardsmen, perhaps with shotguns and heavy stubbers?

Foot Teams: Low Level stats, akin to Conscripts, shotguns?

Fast Attack :
Chimera with Multi-Lasers only (in less trying times they would be tuned down to a stun setting)

Rhino with Heavy Stubber

Both would be open transports, as their non-military style would not come with highly developed or trained SOPs. Landspeeders, although quite tempting, are not available to the Imperial Guard, though there is a bit of fluff supporting skimmers for non-military units, though more in line of the well to do.

Heavy Support :
Execution Teams: High Level stats, akin to Stormtroopers, two man crews with heavy stubbers.

Generally a step lower than Guard, statswise, more basic weapons, bolters available for leader models, pistols and close-combat weapons would represent stubpistols and laspistols and some sort of baton or shock weapon. Heavy stubbers have a more iconic supressive feel than lascannons and autocannons. The main problem with Arbites would be a lack of anti-armor ability. Missile Launchers and Melta Bombs would be their only "fluffy" solution. Except that Melta Bombs aren't as useful as they used to be... So Monoliths and Landraiders would be their total dread vehicles.

Alright, three points...

One- Does nobody remember the repressor?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Badger.htm

The WH Repressor Model was designed for crowd control. Its basically a rhino with a flamer and firing slits for bolters. They drive through a crowd a shoot their bolters out the sides. Works great against big mobz of Boyz and things like that.

I think that that was always something the Arbites got. Also, in my aforementioned combat patrol, I had a Rhino with a "firing platform" for two stubber-wielding Enforcers to stand and shoot downwards in crowd control situations, much like the repressor. It just counted as a Rhino with the additional Pintle Storm Bolter.


Also, My second point. Sisters of battle are only 11 points, and the have the same statline plus a 3+ save with bolters and 4 BS. A Dire avenger is 12 points and has the same statline as that enforcer + 1 WS and the same shotgun, well sorta. A Fire Warrior is only ten points and has a 30" rapidfire/18" pinning weapon with the strength of a Heavy Bolter. A Storm Trooper has a lasgun with slightly better AP, and frag an krak grenades.

Put simply- While the enforcers might need to be a little more in cost, too much might overdo it. A ten Point model can be very effective in todays game compared to the average IG stormtrooper. I believe my Glory Boys are good (I do play IG), but they are ovepriced. I also believe this is mostly 2 points for frag and krak grenades standard, something KK's Enforcers didn't have. Maybe not when compared with IG Stormtroopers, but compared with the rest of 40k's medium troops, they are actually fairly well balanced.

Third point:

The Tau Empire consists of 30 systems, for maybe 100 worlds. The Imperium consists of at least a million worlds. I'm not sure on the exact number, but I know its up there. So why would they release a codex that speaks of a few billion fire caste in a galaxy of Trillions of Guard? Or way more Orks? Becuase they- a. have a fluff-friendly reason to be there, b. obviously have a following that could sell models, and c. have some form of military strategy and power that makes them different from the other races. The Arbites have that, they are not IG, who hold the line, and they are not space marines, who take something for the IG to hold.

However, they ARE veeery similar to the Ordo Hereticus, who defends the imperium from itself. The questions we are looking for here, are, well, as follows.

1. Would it sell? (Only pertains to will it be actually released, which I know none of you were talking about. )

Quite possiblly, IMO. If they increase the arbite range (remember, they already have a nice boxset for making those WH allied forces of which I (and seemingly John Hwang) am fond of. (I have a combat patrol) they might sell it on the prospect of cool models alone. I think If GW did Arbites as the next army, they would rewrite the fluff a little and give them all-new stuff, so its not borrowing the Chimera and Rhino chassis all the time. I can also see some other kind of bike (maybe an oriental/European make crotch-rocket bike, instead of a harley? Like Judge Dredd, i seem to remember) and a new walker.

2. Will it bring a drastic enough different tactic to that of the inquisition or the Imperial Guard?

I really don't think so. I just think its cool to have more stuff for my IG. I like having lots of different allies, I use Kroot Mercs and such. I don't see them being that different from a grenadier force (unless you reinvent the wheel). I can see people wanting a codex for the sake of making them represented, but I think that is the only reason. I don't think too many people are interested enough in cops to want them in 40k. However, Judge Dredd in 40k? Thats a different story.

Also, what about Hrud and the Slanni and various other aliens that they haven't introduced yet? What about The Lost and the Damned? Man I want that back.

3. Do they make sense in full scale 40k?

Again, they were cool allies. I honestly lump myself in the "WH book proxy was enough" crowd. I think that they would just be another tool to an Inquisitor, almost all of the time. Honestly If I were going to do a full Arbites force, it would be a Judge supporting a PDF- so Arbite higher ups with Guardsmen and Conscripts, and that would make for nothing more than an interestingly sculpted IG army. I think that you would have to start over, instead of borrowing imperial stuff from elsewhere. Also I like the Idea of the psy-judge, like Judge Anderson from Judge Dredd. You'd have to give them pretty awesome powers.


I'm mostly agreeing with everyone. It really doesn't make sense to me- then again neither does Sisters of battle fighting Orks, really. However I hate it when GW takes away, or in this case withholds, options. I believe that people should be allowed to play with what they wanna play, and the people who like the idea should help each other work it out and extrapolate on it. The rest of us (myslef included- I am a naysayer!) shouldn't bother them.

I also agree that the Wolfies and GK's are very under represented in that estimate.

Skinnattittar wrote:@KK : I think most of those things you listed as being the domain of the Arbites is actually the territory of the Inquisition, PDF, and Imperial Guard. Arbites, at least in what I have read about them, are more like SWAT or Cops+ to the local officials, and the police of the areas between jurisdictions (like State Troopers are to town police officers). Not really a large force able to topple a formal PDF, it is the power that lies behind them (the Imperial Guard and other Imperial Forces) rather then they themselves. How they are played in Necromunda is different then if they were to be carried over to 40k.

Arbites are more like a paramilitary police force, something that doesn't really exist in todays world. They're different from the planetary police forces, usually called Enforcers (see Necromunda), who are the police forces of the individual world. These Enforcers may include SWAT-level units or any other units.

Adeptus Arbites, on the other hand, are a direct Imperial organisation, often recruited from Schola Progrenium students (just like Stormtroopers and Commissars) and are thus trained from birth to be 'elite' human soldiers. It's only sensible that they have the same stat line as other 'elite' human soldiers such as Sisters and Stormtroopers.

I use an Arbites army with the WH rules without any problems. You can see it at http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Ian%27s_Arbites_Army.

There are a few units missing, notably the Shock Teams and Bikes, but we can find ways around this. I use multiple squads or 1 x Inquisitor (PW, Rosarius) and 3 x Crusader as a 'Shock Team'. I use the Shotgun Arbites as regular Stormtroopers, as described in the Codex. I then model riot shields onto all the Arbites with Bolgtuns, and use these as Sisters (the riot shields represent their 3+ save, other than that they are exactly the same). As long as all Boltgun troops have shields, I can then take Retributor or any other 'special' Sisters squads. I don't use Acts of Faith. So my list is...

HQ

Arbitor General (Inq Lord, usually leading a 'Shock Team' of 3 Crusaders)
Judge (Priest)

ELITES

Shock Team (Inq with PW, Rosarius (suppression shield), 3 Crusaders with PW, suppression shield)
Arbites Sniper (Vindicare Assassin)
Arbites Psy-Detective (Culexus Assassin)
Cyber-hounds (Arco-flagellants)

TROOPS

Patrol Teams (Arbites with Shotguns count as Stormtroopers)
Combat Teams (Arbites with Boltguns and riot shields count as Battle Sisters)

FAST ATTACK

Suppression Squads (Arbites with Boltguns and riot shields and lots of special weapons, count as that similar Sisters squad)

HEAVY SUPPORT

Retributor Squads (Arbites with Boltguns and riot shields and lots of heavy weapons, count as that similar Sisters squad)
Exorcist (The FW model, not the cathedral one!!)

TRANSPORT

Retributors (from FW)

SonsOfLoki wrote:There are play tested rules @ bell of lost souls

Saw them.

Didn't like.

The first thing I saw was that the HQ judge gives the enemy a negative leadership modifier because well... he's the law. or something.

While we have to compare it to WH and IG, I think at the same time in making an independent codex, you have to also think of its design outside the context of those two if you want to develop its own character.

I think count as armies are fine. The objective is to go beyond that.

Skinnattittar wrote:My suggestion for how an Arbites force would look:

HQ :
Command Team: Mid level stats, akin to Guardsmen, perhaps with shotguns and heavy stubbers?

Elites :
Kill teams: High Level Stats, akin to Stormtroopers, but perhaps with Lasguns, Shotguns, and CCW?

Troops :
Patrol Teams: Mid Level stats, akin to Guardsmen, perhaps with shotguns and heavy stubbers?

Foot Teams: Low Level stats, akin to Conscripts, shotguns?

Fast Attack :
Chimera with Multi-Lasers only (in less trying times they would be tuned down to a stun setting)

Rhino with Heavy Stubber

Both would be open transports, as their non-military style would not come with highly developed or trained SOPs. Landspeeders, although quite tempting, are not available to the Imperial Guard, though there is a bit of fluff supporting skimmers for non-military units, though more in line of the well to do.

Heavy Support :
Execution Teams: High Level stats, akin to Stormtroopers, two man crews with heavy stubbers.

Generally a step lower than Guard, statswise, more basic weapons, bolters available for leader models, pistols and close-combat weapons would represent stubpistols and laspistols and some sort of baton or shock weapon. Heavy stubbers have a more iconic supressive feel than lascannons and autocannons. The main problem with Arbites would be a lack of anti-armor ability. Missile Launchers and Melta Bombs would be their only "fluffy" solution. Except that Melta Bombs aren't as useful as they used to be... So Monoliths and Landraiders would be their total dread vehicles.

I guess fourth times the charm:

aka_mythos wrote:
Like I said before its important to remember Arbites are
1) Fewer in number than IG
2) Are a paramilitary force, better equipped than the IG

They are a last line of defense for a planet, in the sense that if their actions cannot deal with the problem, the next course of military action will be the imperial guard that will arrive sometime in the next 50 years (darn warp) to deal with the problem.

Their fluff is pretty straight forward in saying they are equipped better than a given number of imperial guard.
...
By the necessity of their design and function, as dictated by their fluff, they would need some amount of military level abilities. They have to function outside the aid of the planetary defense forces because they may need to fight some amount of them. Their purpose would dictate that they be as numerous as say the governors body guards, which in all likely hood would be a company or so of stormtroopers. Any force capable of taking out such a force would once again have to be better equipped and be worth while on the table top.

The Arbites are a precaution and deterrent because it isn't always practical to send an IG fleet or army to deal with every little insurrection in a TIMELY manner.

To summarize the Adeptus Arbites are suppose to be better than the Imperial Guard.
They have superior training, equivalent to Commisars and Storm Troopers.
They have personal equipment equivalent to Storm Troopers.
They have full military grade transports and they have bikes.
At least one piece of fluff has mentioned that even the odd precinct will have a leman russ. That is more an exception than practice, but it shows the degree to which military equipment is available to the Adeptus Arbites.
Arbites do have heavy bolters while heavy stubber are generally only used by Enforcers.

On the idea of a land speeder, I think its appropriate, aside from being a analog to modern helicopters, it strikes me as almost necessary for any law enforcement force dealing with civilians who have access to such things and just practical when you consider the complexity of levels that compose a hive city. Imagine trying to get anywhere in a hive city quickly, slowest highways in universe I'm sure. Its also a bit to a common archetype to sci-fi, police in anti-grav cars. Besides with the IG getting a skimmer it strikes me as less of an issue.

This is how I would break down an Arbite Codex:
HQ:
Judge
Marshalls (0-3, non FoC, attachable to any squad)
Psi-Marshals (0-3, non FoC, attachable to any squad)

Elites:
Combat Team (bolters as standard, variety of ranged weapon choices or special bolter ammo)
Bounty Hunters (have infiltrate, with a variety of weapons, generally close combat, double kill points for units they eliminate)
Sniper Team (Drop Him! - for each hit you initially roll, you may re-roll that number of misses)

Troops:
Patrol Team -upgradable to-> Shock Team (both at 5-15 models)
Penal Conscripts (with a warden who functions similarly to commissars)

Fast Attack
Pursuit Teams
Land Speeder Storm
Land Speeder (limited to single weapon varient)
Tracking Team (1-3 Marshalls with 3 psyber mastiffs)

Heavy Support
Execution Team (basic heavy weapon squad)
Sentinel (no scout but, but comes closed top, with close combat variant upgrade)
Exorcist

Dedicated Transports:
Rhino
Chimera
Repressor

A couple ideas on special army wide rules (none I'm particularly attached to):
Intermingle - allows surviving models to form up with other teams
Back Up! - All reserve units may arrive by turn 2
Urban Fighters - In a game using CoD rules, arbites may always take cover saves
I think an ability to deploy barriers and emplacements would be appropriate.

all_lucky7777 wrote:One- Does nobody remember the repressor?

they already have a nice boxset for making those WH allied forces of which I (and seemingly John Hwang) am fond of.

2. Will it bring a drastic enough different tactic to that of the inquisition or the Imperial Guard? I really don't think so.

Also, what about Hrud and the Slanni and various other aliens that they haven't introduced yet? What about The Lost and the Damned? Man I want that back.

3. Do they make sense in full scale 40k? Again, they were cool allies. I honestly lump myself in the "WH book proxy was enough" crowd. I think that they would just be another tool to an Inquisitor, almost all of the time.

I believe that people should be allowed to play with what they wanna play

I also agree that the Wolfies and GK's are very under represented in that estimate.

-raises hand- Also, my buddy just ordered one from FW.

I'm hugely fond of Arbites, but never got around to ordering them. They're on that big wishlist of things to get once my vast current backlog whittles down. Also, WH is one of my favorite Codices from GW. Due to the wide variety of units and Allies, you can do more "counts as" stuff with that book than pretty much anything else GW has produced. It's awesome!

Inquisition & Guard cover a *lot* of options, so I think any expansion into a new Codex needs to be thought of pretty clearly, and the only thing that I can imagine needing an actual break from Inquisitition / Guard is Traitor Guard / LatD.

I'd love to see Hrud, etc. appear in the 40k universe, but I'm pretty sure Inquisition / Guard won't be the place (I like Tau for this). As above, I'd really like to see Traitor Guard appear as a proper Codex.

While I'm sure Arbites see some action at the 40k level, I'm not sure that Arbites would be a primary force as they stay on planet. That is, you won't see many Arbites forces trying to crusade or whatever in the same Fluff sense as IG or other aggressive forces. And maybe that's the issue with LatD - that GW doesn't see them as travelling against Orks / Nids / Tau?

I totally agree that people should play what they like. 40k is a social game, not a competitive one, so let's have fun!

Thanks John. I agree with everything, but I think if they put the Hrud or something in the 5th tau book, they should see a 'chapter approved merc book' kind of thing like the Kroot. I also wasn't implying the Hrud would be part of the =][=.

Anyone like my thought of just reinventing the wheel? I understand that they probably wouldn't have new STC variants, come to think of it. But I can see thier own variants of the Landspeeder, Bike, and jetbike even, along with different variants on the chimera/rhino chassis, maybe even a new Russ. All in all, that would be the best way to generate interest in them as another imperial army. Maybe Allied Inquisitorial content?

They should also draw heavily from the Judge Dredd universe with 40k twists. GW has never been above combining material from successful universes (or maybe they invented them first? StarCraft comes to mind) and the Judges of Mega City One would fit in perfectly with the INQ and the SOB and other dark, grimy 40k lore. They would look and feels different, but have that same sort of "judge, jury and executioner" sort of feel.

Even the normal Enforcers, would have that, they have a Judge as their "sergeant". The Marshall seems to be the highest rank spoken of to me. You would have to invent a new colonel/lieutenant/space marine commander/canoness etc for the Arbites, AFAIK.



EDIT: I just had a thought. Other armies have rules saying they are always the attacker, why not say the arbites are always defending with barricades and bunkers and such. You could balance out the list to assume that they will always be in some kind of fortifications. That would be really interesting as an army concept and have tactical differences at that point. The Normal Enforcers could be a kind of "take that objective" kind of unit, of which i can see working with flamers, melta, and rhinos along with cover ignoring shotguns. I see this idea as the 'bunker assault' mission from 4th, only all the time. The Arbites would be either costed out more, or you would be required to buy fortifications with your army total. I really like the latter concept, as its new and unheard of.

This could represent a period where the Arbites have dug in as a last resistance, and are waiting for Guard/SM support. They also might have some sort of a (balanced) Alaitoc Disruption table? Maybe preliminary bombardment as an option in the codex?

What do you guys think?